Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Well, we're in our late 30's and have no current desire to have
    children.  We've been married since 1974.
    
    You are quite right that the pressure can be enormous. Families,
    neighbors, friends, co-workers ...
    
    I've never sought out a support network, per se, for this aspect of my
    life.  I tend to build my support network around the whole me, rather
    than just one tiny facet.
    
    At present, only about half of my friends in my local-area age group
    have children.  If you are having difficulty finding persons of similar
    inclination, I don't know where to tell you to look ... my friends
    without children were just as visible as those with, sometimes more so.
    
      Annie

    In addition to the responses to this note, see also:
    
    womannotes-V1
    146 - do you ever want children?
    156 - do you LIKE being around children?
    784 - choosing not to have children
    
    womannotes-V2
    947 - children - to have or not to have
    
    womannotes-V3 (this file)
    371 - to have or have not - children
    
    human_relations
    360 - opting for no children
    491 - on having children
    
    mennotes
    167 - life without kids?
    369 - the decision to have kids
    481 - fathering children in the twilight years
    
    
    -Jody
    

I know lots of dinks.....

;-)

Kathy

    
    Thanks for the input.  We'll have to get out more and perhaps run
    into some dinks. 
    
    rke

    
    
    re.4  
    
    i'll just bet you do...  (-%
    
    ~r

(raising our hands) Another pair of dinks over here! 8-)

Tamara and I decided early on that we never wanted to have kids.  I won't
bother to go into all the reasons...

Strangely enough, we haven't felt much real pressure to have kids... at
least no direct pressure of the "So, when are you going to hatch?"
variety (The exception is Tamara's mother... but that's because she has
no grandkids yet.  My parents have seven grandkids; they don't NEED
any more 8-) ).

I don't think dinks "lay low" so much as they don't stand out in
a crowd as much... at least not so much as that couple over there
trying to work their way through the crowd with one kid in a backpack, 
another in a stroller, and another toddling along behind 8-) 8-) 8-)

I'm just curious, rke... what kind of "pressure" do you feel?  Is it
direct (people asking you if you're going to hatch) or indirect (e.g.
media images of big, happy families leaving you feeling left out)?

--jim

	I have never wanted children, and neither has my husband, and I feel 
	very lucky to be married to someone who shares my views, and doesn't
	just pay lip service to them.

	I have had pressure when I was younger, but nothing that I couldn't
	easily ignore.

	There are many people in this situation, people who have not yet started
	their families, people whos children have grown up and left, people who
	do not want children, people who cannot have children, and people whos
	children are at boarding school etc.

	I look around me at work, and there are many more people without kids, 
	than with kids.

	I look around in the local pub, and it's the same situation. This 
	doesn't mean that you can't have friends with kids, because we do,
	people are people are people. 

	Know your own mind, and be happy with it.

	Heather

    
    .7 - The pressure I referred to is the societal pressure.  Having
    kids is what you are expected to do, you don't question, ponder,
    or discuss the option.  Society, the census, the economic indicators
    seem to include the "family" as an indicator of "goodness", and how
    we are doing as a country or society.  
    
    As for meeting other dinks...we moved to New England 6 years ago and
    are still having difficulties making friends in general.  When you
    don't have kids you are not automatically thrown into PTAs, school
    activities, other kids' parents, etc.  If you don't go to church you
    don't have the church network and environment.  When you realize that
    you are not going to have kids, and the potential network of other 
    kids' parents is non-existent you begin to wonder what other couples in
    similar situations are doing, and how could you meet.  
    
    ..rke

>    .7 - The pressure I referred to is the societal pressure.  Having
>    kids is what you are expected to do, you don't question, ponder,
>    or discuss the option.  Society, the census, the economic indicators
>    seem to include the "family" as an indicator of "goodness", and how
>    we are doing as a country or society.  
    
 	I honestly don't see this at all.


	However, people who we know and mix with: I've been thinking of the 
	things that I do, and who I mix with.

	The pub - darts, socialising.
	Their are many people here, quite often they are couples without 
	children, or whose children have grown up. Their are a few who have 
	babysitters, their are halves of couples whos spouse stays at home, and
	singles.

	Racing - gokart racing, and kit-car racing, same mix as above.

	Water polo - their is only one person out of 20+ who plays who has
	any kids, and she was a single parent.

	Family, niether of Daves sisters has kids, or wants kids. One of my
	brothers is also childfree.

	Theatre-amateur dramatics. I don't do this any more, however many of 
	the people who could put the effort into this were couples without 
	children, or singles.

	Work - I do some socialising with people in work, their are many couples
	who have no children.

	neighbours, one side their is a couple who are in their 60's, the 
	other side they are 40 and 42, who's youngest has just moved into a 
	flat.

	I could go on, I find that I never actually look for friends that 
	have/don't have kids, but friends that we enjoy the company of. The
	circles that we move in do not tend to cater for children, so I
	suppose we end up meeting more people who don't have kids, than do.

	Maybe you should concentrate on doing things you enjoy, and then you
	will find friendships developing from this, rather than trying to find
	"where chidlfree people go"


	Heather

    Heather, this is an honest, unsarcastic question.
    
    I have seen many (at least 5, probably more) notes from you, in
    response to people sayings things like "I feel pressure to..." (have
    kids, get married, do more of the housework, etc, etc).  You always
    come back with "Well *I* don't feel any such thing..."
    
    Have you ever wondered why it is that you don't perceive the same
    things in life and society that *so* many other people do?
    
    Have you also considered that just because you don't feel them that
    doesn't mean it isn't really there???
    
    D!

D!, I've noticed the same thing and have come to figure that Heather is one of
the lucky ones.  (I mean that seriously)  Some people grow up without much
hindrance from negative stereotypes, sexism, racism, etc, and therefore it had 
little impact on them.  Another possibility, maybe Heather is one of those
rare individuals with such self-confidence and ability that the hindrances don't
stick, she never acknowledges them so they cannot affect her.  I am more
hindered by self-doubt than that.

I feel I've had a fairly lucky life, and sometimes have the "huh?!?" reaction
when people speak of a stumbling block that has been big for them.

This does not detract from any of Heather's achievements, or mine inasmuch as
I "had it easy" (for ex, for various reasons I've had it much easier than any
of my siblings).  It just is.

Sara

    
    
    RE: .11
    
    D!, I don't think it's an appropriate question, though.  Heather has
    phrased her comments in a very "I"-like fashion, she has not pointed a
    finger at anyone saying that since she doesn't see/feel/experience it,
    that it does not exist....  She has just stated that it has not existed
    in HER experiences.
    
    Any discomfort anyone feels about Heather's (and others...me included)
    comments that they haven't experienced the pressures others have, is
    their OWN discomfort, and they should own that discomfort.  I wonder
    sometimes why it is so hard for us to realize sometimes that other
    people don't have the same experiences that we do....that each and
    every one of us are unique.....and each and every one of us have the
    right to share our experiences.
    
    Everyone has the right to share their experiences here, and the right
    to express the way that feel....even if that includes almost ALWAYS
    being the one saying "I've never felt that."
    
    I truly think that there is a certain kind (or certain kinds) of
    individuals that, just by the way they lead their lives, and the
    attitudes and convictions that they have, they do NOT experience
    certain pressures that others do, because their personality and their
    presentation of themselves allows those pressures to bounce off of them
    without affecting them the way those pressures might affect others.
    
    I know you said that you didn't intend for your comment to be
    sarcastic.  So, keeping that in mind, I don't see it as sarcastic, but
    rather as sort of a selfish comment.  Heather has experiences in her
    life and she has the right to share those experiences....even to the
    point of repeatedly saying "I've not experienced that."  By her saying
    that she hasn't experienced it, she is not, conversely, attempting to
    belittle those people that HAVE experienced it.  You comment feels like
    "you have it good, and I'm jealous, because I don't."
    
    I think it's wonderful to hear someone say "It's not LIKE that in my
    life!" because that gives me hope for the future that not all of us are
    experiences bad situations.  Sometimes, I think, in this conference
    people put a LOT of emphasis on negativity, and people who are
    positive, with positive experiences are sometimes looked on as suspect.
    
    ....as if because of the fact that they have had positive experiences
    that they are somehow belittling those who have not been so fortunate.
    
    I don't think we should have to share our experiences by always having
    to put it in terms of alternate experiences, and I don't think it's
    appropriate to question anyone's motives for sharing their experiences.
    ESPECIALLY when that person has used correct "I" terminology.
    
    I don't feel a person should have to justify their experiences.....it
    feels like when someone confronts a rape victim with the comment
    "Don't you realize the way that you dress leads men to rape you?"
    
    Random musings....
    
    kath

Is this a note about Heather's personality or about DINKs?

Why are we always getting off the subject? (Please answer in another topic)

Bruce

    
    rke:
    
    Heather touched on hobbies and activities in her note.  In my
    life, I have lots of things I'm interested in - I belong to
    2 outdoor clubs and a bike club.  I regularly meet many people
    and couples who either don't want children or whose children
    are grown up through sharing these activities.
    

    .13 explained the situation quite well, and I agree with her...
    not everybody has to have the same amount of prejudices, or doubts, or
    experiences. Support groups offer just that; support, to people who
    need them, but there are also people who do NOT need that support
    because they feel good enough in their own being.  What's wrong with
    that?
    There ARE people who do not need to belong to a certain group to feel
    good, just by being oneself is good enough, to mingle with all people
    is good regardless of status (married, single, divorced, widow...) that
    is an asset!  People with children? they are GREAT!  people without?
    they are also GREAT!  pressure?  Only if we allow it...

    
    Re : Heather... I appreciate her comments and her listing of activities
     at which she meets and interacts with people.  I also appreciate that
     Heather is residing in another culture, European, which may not have
     the same baggage that we carry with us.  Also....I don't think going
     to pubs and playing water polo are too appropriate in New England for
     meeting people, however, her comments are welcome.  My point was ...
     once you make the decision to not have kids, and you look around you,
     you wonder whom else made similar decisions.  It is like buying a 
     VW and soon being aware of everyone else with VWs.
    
    rke
    

    re. pubs ... I'm completely serious.
    
    I moved to New England 8 years ago from another part of the US.  While
    I don't hang out in pubs excessively, I've met _many_ fine people
    [dinks & otherwise] in pubs.  The trick is finding the right pub, and
    in NH _that's_ tougher than finding the dinks 8^}!!!
    
      Annie

>    I have seen many (at least 5, probably more) notes from you, in
>    response to people sayings things like "I feel pressure to..." (have
>    kids, get married, do more of the housework, etc, etc).  You always
>    come back with "Well *I* don't feel any such thing..."
 
>    Have you ever wondered why it is that you don't perceive the same
>    things in life and society that *so* many other people do?
    
>    Have you also considered that just because you don't feel them that
>    doesn't mean it isn't really there???
    
    D!,

	Well, I'm probably not expressing myself well, but I honestly can't see
	the pressures, and when I try to map what is said, with what I see in 
	myself and people I know well, I get a complete disconnect.

	I then try to explain my standpoint and understanding, hoping it will 
	help to show a position where the problems don't exist.
	I also hope that I will also get some sort of reply back so that I can 
	understand more, and maybe make the bridge.

	Heather

    Re .17
    
    >  I also appreciate that  Heather is residing in another culture, 
   > European, which may not have the same baggage that we carry with us. 
    
    True, rke, but the adjustment in view isn't difficult if you're
    willing to value the baggage differences....;-)
    
    'gail (another Brit - had you noticed?)
    
    
 

    Gail, I really am curious. Is there no baggage in Britain? Is it an
    "American" thing?

    Nah - we have loads of baggage here too.
    Some of it is pretty similar, IMO, and some of it's different-ish.
    
    I tend to leave my "English-labelled" baggage at home when I visit
    here because the majority of readers seem to be Amercian and I
    don't think it would interest them too much - also, I'm much
    more interested in looking at the similar baggage that we have...
    
    There are enormous displays of British baggage in conferences
    like UK_DIGITAL, EF91 etc if anyone's interested...
    
    'gail
    

    
    A new phrase... I'm a SINK!

>    A new phrase... I'm a SINK!

Well, we were SINKs for a while too, before Tamara got a job.
If her enforced vacation had lasted any longer, we'd be SUNK 8-) 8-) 8-)

    How about new phrase - OINKS?? 

    
    Call me daft, what's the O?

    
    to the basenoter:
    
    thanks for entering this.  I feel exactly the same way that you do.
    The two couples that my husbad and I used to see socially are both
    pregnant.  All of a sudden, my life is unimportant to one of these
    women, the one I was closest to.  The only thing that seems to 
    matter to her is procreating.  I try to tell her problems I'm
    having at work, but she just won't listen.  I don't know if this
    will continue after she gives birth but if it does, I don't see
    how we'll be friends anymore.  
    
    My husband has the same concerns and we are interested in meeting
    other DINCS.  Luckily we're moving to a townhouse/condo community
    which should help as all our neighbors are around our age.  I moved
    here from Erie, Pa 3 years ago and it's really hard to make good
    friends here.  I belong to a church, I joined a health club,
    I go golfing, joined a political group ...  Bottom line is meeting
    people is difficult.  I think people here feel that if they
    have a few friends, then they have enough and they just don't
    wish to put the energy into new relationships.  Add onto that
    having a different lifestyle( having no kids), and you've got
    two strikes against you.
    
    I'm not sure how you can solve your problem.  I've found there's
    women and men whom I work with who I really like and that helps.
    But I agree with you about the difficulty maintaining friendships
    or even starting friendships if you chose not to have kids.
    
    I think there is definitely pressure to have children.  A couple
    men whom I work near, asked me when I'm going to get pregnant.  When
    I said "never".  they were apalled.  They told me they would never
    have married a woman like that.  ("well, don't I feel bad", I thought
    sarcastically)  My mom is convinced that I'm not following Biblical
    teachings, and the girlfriend mentioned before tells me that having
    children will solve all my work pressures.  Even people you meet
    casually on the street somehow seem to mention, "well, when you
    have children ..."  The thought that children are a CHOICE just
    doesn't occur to them!  I just love to see these peoples faces
    when I say, "over my dead bod!"  Then you've got those people
    whose response to your choices is "mistakes will happen".  "Thanks
    for that vote of confidence", I think.  Saying "mistakes can
    be corrected" doesn't seem to light up their faces too well.
    
    So, don't feel badly.  There are others like you.  Heck, I sound
    much more irritated about the whole thing than you do.  I'm sure
    that in time, you'll meet some nice people.  I've found the key
    is to have similar interests with the woman.  Men seem to be able
    to get along no matter what.  But since women tend to talk more
    thank men, we need to have something in common to talk about.
    
    Rachael
    

	I'm a soon-to-be DINK.  Already, three months before the wedding,
	I'm getting the questions about when I'm going to have children.
	Give me a break!  First of all, I think that's a pretty personal
	question.  Second of all, like Rachael said, it's like people 
	just *assume* you're going to have children, sooner or later.

	Mark's brother, who is only 2 years older than Mark, has been
	married 10 years and has 3 children.  He and his wife have 
	brought up the children-thing more than once.  The last time I
	saw them he said something like, "mistakes happen".  I replied
	with, "mistakes can be undone".  That didn't go over too well.

	C'est la vie.

	Sue

	p.s.  You know those bands of skateboard-riding kids you see
	jumping off stairs, or BMX-riding kids zooming through the
	streets?  Mark and I call them yutties.  Young Urban Terrorists.

    This is a topic that has always interested me.  I am married, 44 and a
    DINK.  I have never had a desire to have children, although I like
    children very much.  We have some friends that are also DINKS who we
    socialize with and see on long weekends.  Others DINKS are hard to find
    and we do seem to be a rare breed.  
    
    I have often wondered why people have children.  I wonder what it is
    that they feel that drives them to work so hard to get pregnant and
    raise children.  I think that some of us intellectually decide not to
    have children and some of us lack the instinct to reproduce.  I have
    never had the feeling that I was missing anything by not having
    children.  Usually the friendships we have with people who have
    children are not as deep and meaningful as our DINK friendships.  The
    presence of children makes a big differnence.  But we understand and
    it's OK.
    
    I haven't heard of any DINK support group.  I guess our problems are
    serious enough.  Is there a DINK notes conference?
    
    Some people can't understand how I can be happy without children.  My
    response is that happiness should not be dependent on having children. 
    That would mean we would making children responsible for our happiness. 
    My mother-in-law has trouble dealing with the fact that she will never
    have grandchildren but she has finally gotten to the point where she
    doesn't bring it up anymore.  Now she prays for a miracle.  Through the
    miracle of medical science, I've made certain her prays will not be
    granted.
    
    When we entertain, we almost never invite children and our freinds who
    have children don't seem to have a problem with that.  Usually when
    they come over they spend all their time talking about their children
    so it's almost like having the kids there anyway.
    
    Childfree and happy,
    
    Nina

    G'Day,
    
    	I'm half of a DINK couple at the moment although not for very much
    longer.  I could quite easily go through life without having any
    children.  I like being able to do what I want, when I want and be able
    to afford to do it.  Recently though, my wife has been getting that
    maternal urge to the point where we will probably become pregnant in a
    couple of months.
    
    	I don't see not wanting kids as being selfish.  I think is selfish
    when people have kids and then neglect them while still living their
    own desired lifestyle.  Not having them in the first place cannot be
    construed as selfish from my point of view.
    
    	When our child(ren) are eventually here I will love them and
    provide for them but as I said earlier I could easliy live without
    them.
    
    David.
    

    Right on, right on!!  I am so happy to hear from other DINKs! 
    I have tried to have people who are parents for friends, but I get it
    two ways only: 1) they assume that I dont like kids and apologize for
    having them; 2) they see how much their kids like me and get jealous. 
    I truly love children - they are the best people - and they seem to be
    drawn to me - I just dont want to OWN any.  I know my limitations well
    enough to know that I could not make a 20-year commitment to anything,
    let alone the care and feeding of a human 24 hours a day.  Has anyone
    read a book called "The Baby Trap"?  Anyone considering gestation
    should read it and see if they still want to reproduce.  The thing
    about parents is: kids are their flesh and blood and the kids ALWAYS
    come first - no matter what.  They just dont share the same values or
    priorities as us DINKs.
    
    -ct

    Neil and I made the choice not to have children many years ago.  Now if
    we (mostly I) want to be around small children, we borrow them for the
    day or for a specific event.. then they go home.
    
    The greatest reason to be DINKS (Awful choice of letters) was that Neil
    is an alcoholic and bringing a child into that crazy world was, to us,
    in insane move.  Even though he has been sober for 7yrs now, he has no
    desire to have children at this late date..