Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I probably don't qualify for answering, but then again...;^).
    
    _Beeing able to 'blame' the other sex for everything that's 'wrong'
     in socity_.
    
    (Saying this with a smile) :-) !!!!!
    
    
    PerS,
    

    From the top of my head:
    
    She do the laundery.
    I do the dishes.
    She do ironing.
    I do the windowcleaning.
    She do the cooking.
    I do the vacuming.
    She does the outdoor flower watering
    I do the indoor ditto.
    
    When we have done a fair share of the 'daily/weekly routines',
    all thats left is:
    
    The electrical fixes
    The plummer fixes
    All the house fixes
    The trees
    The grass
    The carwashing x 2
    The car repairing x 2
    
    I do all this. .. and more.
    
    Why? Well, when I mention this to her, she answers:
    'But, I'm a woman you know' with a smile. And I say: 'Sure you are,
    and I love you for that', and I do this things with a smile.
    
    She knows what her advantages are, and how to use them, and I
    appriciate that! _Love_ might have somthing to do with this.
    
    
    PerS,
    

    re: .1
    
    Ahem.
    
    D!

    I LOVE being treated as a lady... I expect from men to let me pass a
    door in front of them; I thank them when they open the door for me,
    or help me put on a coat... to me it is not a sign of not being able to
    do it by myself, it is a sign of respect and deference and I take it as
    such, I like it to be treated that way.  I, myself, do it with others, it
    doesn't matter if they are men or women, I unconciously help whoever is
    near me, I help and also love to be helped or be treated in a nice way,
    and by being a woman I get treated the way I like... why I like it?
    (probably becaused was raised in Spain and everybody has heard
    of "romantic latin lovers" Spanish men love to treat women nicely, at
    least... they used to, when I lived there!) and, it is so nice to have
    someone do something special for you! 
    
    Being a woman is being a "fixer", a "healer", a "mother"... a person
    who makes things run smooth... who listens and care for the kids...
    being a woman means a lot, a woman can do as much as she chooses to do,
    and can do it well. (if she so chooses, there are many who can become
    "headaches" to anyone around them, but it is because they choose being
    that way)
    
    Being a woman is.... great! and I love it.

    living longer, statistically speaking?
    
    although, until they can extend the quality of human life as long as
    they can extend the life itself it's a mixed blessing.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    Lower cholesterol  :-).
    (according to one doctor I've seen)
    
    Carol

    Ha!!
    
    Tell that to my blood!!!
    
    D!

    
    
    RE: title of this note
    
    How does one "bee" a woman...is this some sort of exciting stinging
    experience?
    
    ;-)
    
    Couldn't resist....
    
    kath

I think we're buzzing around the topic. It hasn't been a very fertile 
discussion.

Bruce

I think it would be wonderful to have a baby and nurse it. No fooling!

Bruce

    
    It *is* wonderful to have a baby and nurse it. To me, that is definitely
    one of the advantages of being a woman. Unfortunately, like everything
    else women do, this activity is devalued by society, so that women
    often are made to feel bad about something they'd otherwise feel good about
    about being a woman.
    
    D.

    >I think we're buzzing around the topic. It hasn't been a very fertile
    >discussion.
    
    I would have contributed meaningfully to the discussion because I think
    there are a lot of good things about being a woman, but .1 by the base
    note author was so offensive that I don't feel at all comfortable
    sharing in a real way in this string.
    
    D!

    re: .1
    
    Love is just one area of a woman's life.  And sure, when someone
    loves you, you have an advantage in being you!  This is nothing
    specific to womanhood.
    
    What I consider an advantage in being a woman is the spirituality of it
    and I don't really know how to put that into words but I'll try.  
    
    I know I'm affected by the phase of the moon, by the weather, etc, and
    that I go through changes physical, mental and emotional because of
    them.  And I love it.  In contrast, men seem to be so "on the surface",
    so guided by artifical concepts, created ideas and manufactured goals. 
    All those things seem pointless to me when I feel the full moon coming
    on, (soon!  there's a waxing gibbous out there!), when I see a pregnant
    woman or the women in my bloodline.  I "know" that humanity is connected
    through generations of women, that love and the lessons of life, though
    through socialization have been confined to women only and devalued, 
    really belong with women and are *very* valuable so that's where I want 
    them.  Womanhood seems to be a condition of connection where manhood 
    seems to be a condition of separation.
    
    True, I feel "left out" of sports, of war, of the porn industry except
    as potential fodder, of government, of the companies I work for, etc,
    but except for the money factor of work, I really don't care.  Michael
    Jordan, Schwartzkopf, the fabricated lies in skin mags all pale in com-
    parison to what it feels like to be a woman - having the power of creation 
    within you, and to be reminded of it daily, having innately better health, 
    better endurance and all things being equal, a longer life.  These
    things are real and will last long after Jordan and Schwartzkopf are
    dead and the pet of the month has gone grey and holds her grandchild in
    her arms.
    
    I think women *are* witchy and wise, nurturing and loving, healing and
    encouraging, perceptive and intuitive, sensual and sexual and if/when we 
    cease to be these things, it's my belief that it's only because one is 
    abandoning them out of a desire or need to fit into a culture that is 
    strictly male in format, including its definitions of what is a woman.
    
    Perhaps money is the only area where men demand what they think is
    their fair share of superiority, I don't know.  I suspect it is.  But 
    all the money in the world can't replace the moodiness in the
    rain which is as beautiful to me as the elation in the sun, the sense
    of belonging when I see a new baby, or feeling "everywoman" in me when 
    I look at the full moon.  I don't need to create a "side by side" 
    connection to someone through whacking a ball farther than the someones
    on the other team, I am born with a "face to face" connection to those
    who recognize their like birth.  And we only need to *be* to know.
    
    I believe men connect with the earth, the universe, humanity and
    eternity through women and are like ruderless ships without that 
    connection.  Womanhood, on the other hand, seems to need a male 
    connection only to negotiate the artificial world he has created. 
    "Want" of course, is another ball of wax. ;>
    
    Except for the way men regard and treat women and restrict their
    ability to acquire the artifices necessary to live in men's world, I 
    think being a woman is the best possible condition of humanity because
    it *is* humanity in the strictest sense of the word.
    
    In joy,
    
    Sandy                                       
      

    Re: .13
    
    
    You hit the nail on the head!  But I'd like to add, too:
    
    Being a woman means lots of strength, not externally, like men,
    but where it *should* count the most --- internally.  The heart, soul
    and mind of a woman is so strong.  We bear pain (and I guess I'm
    generalizing, but men can't bear children, so stay with me) much easier
    and with less complaints.  I love being a woman.  I love feeling the
    closeness with my own mother and sisters and grandmother, the feeling
    of "sisterhood" with my female friends.  I love being able to relate to
    people and nature and the things around me in a "deep" way, not in a
    "shallow" way.  Men are basically shallow.  I don't mean that in a
    really bad sense, but they don't "feel" things the way women do.  And I
    don't think they even care about "feeling" internally, as long as
    whatever they are doing is pleasurable to them.
    
    I love nurturing and giving of myself.  It makes me feel even better
    when that nurturing and giving and love and caring is returned.  I love
    the fact that when I go home at 5 pm, work does not come home with me. 
    I love the fact that I can do basically anything a *man* can do, like
    mow the lawn (without a riding tractor!), paint the house, hook up the
    TV, VCR, stereo system, etc.    I love the fact that I am never
    expected to keep my emotions inside, and that the expectations that are
    placed on men by society are definitely not placed on women (ie:  man
    == strong, silent, "breadwinner").  I love the fact that there is no
    man in my life who can support me or take care of me better than I can
    support or take care of myself ... and that's the truth.  I've been
    doing it for 29 years now, with *no* man in my life, in a fully
    functional female-dominated family.  I grew up without a father.  My
    mom did everything a dad could do, and just as well as a man could!
    
    That's how I feel about the subject.  And I hope someday I have a
    daughter, not a son.  Not because I dislike men, but because I want the
    same closeness and "sisterhood" feeling with my daughter as I share
    with mom and my sisters.
    
    Tammi

	Sandy and Tammi ... your writings are *beautiful*.

	And there is nothing so comforting as hearing only women's
	voices, talking, laughing, as a cacophony of gilded light,
	or a Goddess playing an ancient harp at sunrise.

	I am proud, thankful, and joyous to be a woman.  Nothing
	is as precious as the bonds I share with other women, be
	they relatives, friends, lovers, or sisters of the soul.
	No man can ever enter the private realm of sisterhood.  I
	am blessed that I can.  And this, more than anything, is
	the benefit of being a woman.

	Carla

    The Big O!
    
    D!

	Again, and again, and again, and again!

	Leave it to you, Diana ... =8-)

	C.

    Nursing a baby! nothing to top it...well almost nothing...;-)
    
    so much incredible love ;-) and joy
    
    Bonnie

        
    Now if we could just extend some of this woman advantage into the White
    House, we'd all be better off, imho ...   :-)
    
    D.

    Not being expected to go to war (so far!)
    
    Not being *expected* to participate in extra-curricular team sports (so far
    ...gym class in h.s. was bad enough)
    
    Not being expected to help people lift heavy things...like furniture,
    etc., while moving, etc.
    
    Not being expected to be able to change the tires on my car, and do car
    repairs, etc. (yuck!)
    
    (I know their are men who also hate doing all of the above, but these
    are the areas where I have benefited by a sexist society.)
    
    Being able to have sex with attractive men without being shunned by
    society.  (as gay men have in the past)
    
    Being able to wear pretty dresses and lots of feminine jewelry without
    being thought a weirdo by society (as cross-dressers usually are).
    
    Being able to cry in public when I'm upset without having to worry
    about not acting macho enough in front of other men.
    
    Being able to turn around and run away if somebody tries to start a
    fight with me, without feeling like a chicken, because I wasn't raised
    to feel that fighting back would prove anything (like that I was a
    man).
    
    Being able to play with dolls as a kid without being condemned as a
    weirdo (like boys at the time would have been, if they played with
    dolls.)
    
    Knowing that I don't have to feel the guilt of being part of the white
    male powerstructure that has screwed things up so bad. :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    ...only women can be Lesbians.  :-)
    
    D!

    
    Lorna,
    
    thank you.  I hadn't been able to think of or believe any of these
    notes until I read yours.  However, I'd trade them all in to have
    been born with the privledges of being a man.
    
    Rachael

Re: .20 


    Being able to cry in public when I'm upset without having to worry
    about not acting macho enough in front of other men.
    

According to my supervisor, crying is not appropriate for the work
environment.  After I had been working for Digital for about six
months, something happened that was very upsetting and hurtful to
me.  I became upset and cried when discussing this with personnel and
with my supervisor.  Now my supervisor has downgraded my performance
review because I cried.  He said the certain expressions of emotion
are accecptable in the workplace, and crying wasn't one of them.
He said crying was disruptive, and hurt my productivity and the
productivity of people around me.  My continued employment with
Digital is dependent on getting counseling and "learning not to
cry."

[It is not as if I go around crying all the time, or that I'm
always going into my supervisor's office with tears streaming
down my cheecks.  I cried a few times, and it was related to 
the upsetting thing that happened.]

If a man cried at work, he might be thought of as not macho, and
it might affect his promotion into management positions, but I
bet he wouldn't be fired for it.

    Re .23: !!! 
    
    Good heavens... I'd say you have a justifiable complaint there, myself.
    While I'd have to agree that I'd find it disturbing if someone in the
    group wandered around crying, I wouldn't say it would hamper *my*
    productivity, and as for yours, well - seems to me the proper subject
    for a manager/supervisor to deal with is whether you're doing your work
    or not, not whether your face is damp while you're doing it.
    
    Now, if you're so distraught from the situation that prompted the tears
    that you can't do productive work, yes, go get help - but if this
    person is trying to use the tears themselves as _firing_ criteria, nail
    his(her?) tail, but good.
    
    [This, from a person who used to cry in math class sometimes when I
    couldn't figure out the answers. I do try not to unhappy-cry in public,
    since it's (a) my business, (b) I hate the responses it usually
    generates, and (c) I don't like to bother people; but, if the tears
    just have to come - as, in this life, they sometimes do - I would hope
    people would consider me to be at a minor disadvantage, not a
    Disruptive Influence who Deserves to be Fired. Rather as if I had the
    hiccoughs, say.]
    
    I'm also wondering just how productive someone would be who swallowed
    their tears and tried to gut out an unhappy episode; or is it OK to
    just stare numbly at the terminal for hours, as long as you aren't
    actually sobbing?
    
    Grrrrr,
    -b

    Being able to actually give birth. Incredible.
    
    Nursing a baby.
    
    Being able to hug and kiss my female friends in public, if that's where
    I first see them, without being thought of as perverted as a man might
    be if he tried to hug and kiss his male friend in public.
    
    Having that 6th sense, that women's intuition when it comes to people.
    
    Being able to express myself emotionally. 
    
    re:Sandy's note about emotions changing with the tides. The thought of
    being ruled by the tides or by our menses makes me think of women as
    powerless and fickle. Remember bouncing silly putty balls? You'd never
    know which wall it was going to hit. Women, in my opinion, are the rock
    of the family unit. Stability is a part of all that. The tides and all
    are merely small anoyances to me.
    
    Kate

Tangent:

>     <<< Note 838.23 by DECWET::MCBRIDE "It may not be the easy way..." >>>
>                     -< Maybe in  public, but not at work >-

  If I were in your situation I would:

    1. CONTACT A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY.

    2. Suggest to the lawyer that I would like them to author/help
       me author a rebuttal letter to be placed in my personnel
       jacket, or

    3. Suggest that they send an official letter to Digital placing
       Digital on notice that I will take legal action if this matter
       ever comes up again, and demanding an appology from or disci-
       plinary action against my current supervisor.
       

  Please notice that I wouldn't take any precipitious action myself --
  I'd just suggest courses of action to my lawyer and FOLLOW THEIR ADVICE.

                                   Atlant

    
    re .26:
    
    I wouldn't contact a lawyer.  I would suggest speaking to
    the person one level up from your supervisor.  No satisfaction?
    Keep on moving up.  And contact personnel too.
    
    Also, I don't understand how could this person "downgrade your
    performance review", as you said, without your signing the
    performance review.  I would refuse to sign such a thing.  I
    assume also if it's in your written records that personnel saw
    it and agreed to it?!?!
    

  Nit:

  Your signature on your review only proves that you saw it --
  it does not indicate your agreement with the content.

                                   Atlant

    
    re .29:
    That may be, Atlant, but she could have refused to sign it.
    Of course, that may have meant a raise would have been delayed.
    

    re.30 [and previous]
    
    Refusing to sign your review merely means that you refused to sign it.
    It is put into your file with a the notation that you declined to sign
    and the date. 
    
    It does not delay any of the actions, salary or otherwise, outlined
    therein.
    
    If you choose not to sign, it is in your best interests to draft a memo
    outlining your reasons for not signing for inclusion with the review
    and the note stating that you did not sign.
    
      Annie

> He said the certain expressions of emotion
> are accecptable in the workplace, and crying wasn't one of them.
> He said crying was disruptive, and hurt my productivity and the
> productivity of people around me.  My continued employment with
> Digital is dependent on getting counseling and "learning not to
> cry."

Apologies for continuing an issue that belongs in its own note, but it's too
important to ignore and not my place to reorganize the conversation.

For a (brief) moment, let me express sympathy for your boss's position.  Crying
is disruptive.  It will affect the productivity of the people around you - most
especially your boss's.  The first time this happened to me, it threw me into a
hard loop for days.

That said, I think he should be shot.  Well, perhaps a plea bargain could be
negotiated.  There are rules by which society operates, and behaviors that are
acceptable and those that are not.  In our society, crying is well within the
range of acceptable behaviors, and if this causes a problem for your boss or
your co-workers it is *their* problem and they need to learn to deal with it. 
I did, and feel richer for the experience.  In a good environment, emotional
acts can improve productivity by drawing attention to a problem more quickly
than would otherwise be the case.  Burying problems has its own pitfalls, more
often than not with worse consequences.

There are lots of things that make people uncomfortable when they are not
familiar.  If these things are uncommon, there is a natural tendency to try to
avoid them rather than get used to them.  Working with the handicapped.  With
people who are disfigured.  With gays.  With people who are distractingly
attractive.  With people who cry.  The fact that it's natural does not make it
right or fair.  For some categories of discrimination, acting on this
discomfort is illegal.  For others, it in only discouraged by informal social
mechanisms.

I would encourage you to seek out a sympathetic ear either in your management
chain or in personnel.  Someone should read the riot act to your boss.  Only
you can decide whether you'ld rather risk pursuing this or risk avoiding it,
but be assured that you are in the right and there is a better chance than you
might think of finding people to back you up.

    Yeah, Mac's problem belongs in its own note.  Maybe the mods will move
    all these replies to a new note.  In the meantime, Mac, I agree that
    you have excellent cause for legal action as Atlant suggested.  Your
    supervisor needs a crash course in valuing differences - his action is
    socially and professionally abhorrent.
    
    -d

    re .23, I'm shocked by your manager's reaction to crying at work.  You
    didn't say why you were crying, but when I think of the reasons that
    someone might cry at work I'm disgusted with what happened to you. 
    About 20 yrs. ago I worked in an insurance company as a clerk-typist. 
    One of the clerks next to me answered the phone one day and burst into
    hysterical tears.  She had just found out that her brother had been
    killed in a motorcycle accident.  Gee, I don't think it ever occured to
    anybody to try to fire her for crying.  And, I always thought insurance
    companies were one of the *worst* places to work while DEC is/or was
    supposed to be a people company.  :-(
    
    I was more fortunate caught crying at work.  A few years ago a live-in 
    boyfriend broke-up with me on a work night, and being madly in love, 
    at the time (what a fool!..:-)...), I was still crying the next morning 
    at work.  In fact,
    I worked myself up into such a state that I walked into my manager's
    office...a serious, quiet engineering manager...told him, while crying,
    that my boyfriend had just broken up with me, and that I was too upset
    to work and was going home for the day.  He told me to go ahead, and
    said he hoped things would work out and that I'd feel better about
    things.  Is this the same company???
    
    I definitely agree with the suggestions to go to personnel and, if
    necessary, your manager's boss.
    
    Lorna
    

  For what it's worth, tonight's news carried a "sound/sight bite"
  of George Herbert Walker Bush crying on TV (recalling the night
  that he and Barbara prayed before the attack on Iraq began).

  Then again, it could have been a fancy trick by a makeup artist.

                                   Atlant

In my opinion, Georg Bush _should_ be doing a lot of crying in the workplace,

Bruce

    
    
    Yeah, I'd cry too if I was the President working with this congress and
    the leaders of the mid-east nations.
    
    Nick