Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Again, as with note 780.0, "Ann" is not the basenoters real name.
    
    -Jody
    

    Ann,
    
    I'm not an expert on this, but it sounds to me like you need to do some
    work on your feelings of self-worth.  You need to find out why you
    can't say "no" without feeling guilty or ineffectual.  There are books
    out on that very topic; women who feel guilty when they say "no".  But
    you probably won't be able to fix yourself without some professional
    help.  And I think you want to get help, because your heuristic fix of
    requiring a detailed game plan up front would drive most normal guys
    away, sooner or later.  Healthy relationships need to be based on
    trust, freedom, understanding, mutual respect and caring.  
    
    There are many men like the one's who have taken advantage of you.
    Most of those who took advantage of you probably knew that's what they
    were doing.  They saw that you were vulnerable and took advantage of
    it.  But with your inability to say "no", it's possible that
    some just thought it was what you wanted.  You probably could have
    stopped most of them with the verbal and physical powers at your
    disposal, if you had truly had access to those powers.  You need to
    gain access to those powers.  To do this may take a lot of work with
    a therapist, but it is achievable.  You can do it.
    
    Fortunately, there are also lots and lots of men who would not
    knowingly take advantage of you.  I, for one, am a guy who has always 
    taken "no", any "no", seriously.  I would tell you an almost ridiculous 
    story of one such "no", except it is a much too personal one concerning 
    myself and my wife.  
    
    My advice would be for you to talk to EAP and get recommendations for
    therapists.  Since you have had problems with male authority figures
    you might want to work with a female therapist.  I wish you the best
    of luck in dealing with this problem.  Remember that you are an 
    important person.  You will find lots of support in this notesfile.
    
    					- Vick

    I know of a person who was asaulted from the back, with intent of
    raping her... and you know what? she fought so hard, that not only the
    man did not succeed, but she struggled long enough with him to get all
    details of his appearance to give them to police, she scratched him and
    gave exact details to police... the result?
    the guy was aprehended 2 hrs later and put behind bars... there was a
    trial, and a stiff fine along couple months in jail.
    
    If a woman fight, it is very hard for a man to succeed...
    If there is no oposition, no fight, no "NOs" involved... then we cannot
    use the word "taken advantage of..." I call it to consent and then feel
    sorry about it (which is altogether a very different thing) Of course
    that is my own opinion, (and I think I read right)
    
    Believe me, NO is a wonderful and POWERFUL word... learn to use it.

.3,

I'm just gonna assume I can't parse that second paragraph and get the meaning
it intended.

    re.4 in reponse to .3
    
    You are a good deal more charitable than I.
    
    I was wondering wondering what .3's comment vis-a-vis consent would be
    when faced with some of my old pictures [complete with choke-hold
    bruises, scratches, blood and gobbets of loose hair] from the fight I
    put up and lost.

    .3
    
    Can you explain what you mean? I'm having a hard time following you.
    Considering that the average woman is smaller that the average man, I
    think it's fairly easy for a man to succeed even if the woman fights.
    And if the woman feels her life is in danger, she may not fight to the
    end. Does that mean she wasn't "taken advantage of..."?
    
    m

	re: .3       

>    If a woman fight, it is very hard for a man to succeed...

	Wow, the only thing I will say to that is: 
	(knee-jerk reactions deleted...)
	
	I think your statement above is extremely easy for the
	average person to believe unless it's proven otherwise 
	to you.  Then you just may be shocked at how useless your
	defensive maneuvers are against someone who is 60% or more
	stronger and who knows what maneuvers you're likely to use.

	And then is all it takes is a dulling blow to your head and
	you're f*cked.


	OK, 1 more thing:

>    If a woman fight, it is very hard for a man to succeed...

	"harder" yes.  "very hard" no.   (IMO, of course)		


						nancy b.

    
    reply to .3
    
    I would suggest that you read 780.2 and then rethink and RESTATE
    what you said.  Women are raped every day and many of them
    fight it.  Some don't.  Some have guns pointed at their heads which
    stops them from fighting it.  I would suggest that the majority
    of men wouldn't have sex with a woman who didn't seem like she
    wanted to.  I wouldn't think it would really be much fun, in the
    traditional, sexual sense.  Of course, if the real intent was
    to humiliate the woman, then perhaps it would be fun, in a sick
    sense.
    
    You know, men can be raped to.  Do you also think that only men
    who don't fight or say no are raped?
    
    I think you need to seriously re-evaluate your opinions on this.
    
    
    Rachael Barlow

    response to .3
    
    I think it is great that your friend fought hard and was not hurt
    and the guy was caught.  But get a grip.  Men are generally bigger
    and stronger than women and if they have a weapon it probably would
    not matter how hard you fought back.  I Also strongly disagree with
    you about the consent thing.  There are many women who for whatever
    reason have a hard time saying no to men.  And alot of men will
    use that weakness even though they know it is not what the woman
    wants.
    
    Kathy