Conference turris::womannotes-v3

	Codswallop


	Heather

    >>       <<< Note 617.1 by SUBURB::THOMASH "The Devon Dumpling" >>>
    >>                -< people actually buy this stuff????? >-
      
    
    Yes, Heather.
    
    E Grace  

    Oh yes.  Some of us are experiencing it even as you doubt...
    

    
    i think it's rather profound
    

    Heather,
    
    Many of us not only "buy" this, but we are recreating "our" own image
    of a female deity.  I am not sure of the topic number, but you might
    want to see the love of the godess topic in here.
    
    (See?  I am learning to tone down my responses)
    
    Meg

    I find that throughout my life I didn't have a really strong,
    supportive, accepting woman in my life, and missed out on owning and
    appreciating (and even NOTICING) parts of myself that I'm starting to
    stumble over (*oof*...what's this.  wait a minute.  It's part of me. 
    Oh....) - some parts are good, some parts society has told me are BAD
    (weakness, trust, faith, compassion, fear, anger) in certain amounts,
    but I am learning to see them (the hardest part is trusting that at my
    core, at my very foundations, I am a *good* being, and am fine just the
    way I inherently am).  
    
    The little voices surface slowly.  And I am so glad I have this
    community to share them with.
    
    This book beautifully complements Maria Shafer's "Dance of the Spirit -
    a woman's guide to spirituality" (or some title like that - I brought
    it up in the "good books" topic).
    
    -Jody
    

    Well, I haven't been here in Womannotes for a long while and I have not
    had something move me quite as much as this passage did.  For me, it
    spoke where I am and what I have inherently believed but was afraid to
    act on for such a long time.
    
    I, too, am beginning to believe in a Goddess although my interpretation
    is somewhat different from the one I am beginning to learn about here. 
    Something in Heather's reply hurt me and I don't know why or just where
    as yet.  I hope I can allow myself the space to find out.  My usual
    response to this would have been anger, but at this point it is just
    pain and sadness.
    
    Thank you, Jody, for this note.  I want to read the book if the rest of
    it is a rewarding as the passage you entered.
    
    Bernice
    

    re: .7
    
    .1 stung me a bit also, but I think it's only because I am so new to
    hearing myself, and so likely to lose my voice among the stronger, more
    sure voices of others.  I felt my choice to read that book, and my
    enjoyment of it and the harkening it made to some of the growth I am
    doing and will probably need to continue to do for a while was
    invalidated by those few words.  It is *my* weakness that makes me
    listen to others - a weakness of compassion and empathy.  I listen too
    much, and hear what others say when I should sometimes raise my walls
    and stand firm on my opinions and feelings.
    
    Yes, I buy books like this, so that I can see parts of myself reflected
    in them that I might otherwise miss.  Through the isinglass pool of
    codswallop such as this, I see vague outlines of selves I have yet to
    claim.  But to each their own opinion.
    
    -Jody

    A "Goddess" or Good Earth Mother started in prehistoric times some
    35.000 years ago, it evolved with times and became what is now our
    modern religions God and Mary His Mother to Catholics, Mohamed to
    Moslems and so on, and so on. Does that book try to take us back to
    where we were 35,000 years ago? it'll be hard to jump all the years in
    between... and I wouldn't like to live in a place with only women, I
    love people and that includes men, women, boys, girls, old and young,
    I'm fascinated by diversity and find our modern world a wonderful place
    to be at the moment... in spite of all the problems that we have today!
    I trust humankind... God bless them all!
    

    
    'evolved'?
    

    Thanks for posting that, Jody.  Discovering our own spirituality is
    something each of us must do alone.  Each person is at a different
    point on their journey.  When I saw .1, I did not feel angry or hurt. 
    I saw myself saying something like that 10 years ago; I smiled and I
    felt compassion.
    
    Mary
    

    
    RE .1
    
    Heather - you've been around in here for a while now, and I would have
    hoped that you would, at the very least, have learned that it is
    appreciated here if you preface blanket statements with an "In my
    opinion" statement.
    
    If you want to say "In my opinion, this is codswallop", I have no
    problem with that.
    If you keep issuing blanket statments like "Codswallop" without a
    preface, especially on subjects that may be important to people in
    here, you will become accustomed to the consistant reaction you will 
    get. Hopefully you will get bored with this and learn to change your
    style to one that will get your views across more effectively in this
    forum.
    
    'gail
    
    
    

    
    The only statement in .0 that struck me as codswallop is the line that
    says the Goddess has died.
    
    When exactly did that happen?
    
    The Old Religion (Goddess Trilogy and all) may have been occluded by
    the Patriarchal trilogy of Judeo-Christian religions but it never died,
    was never truly forgotten, and never abandoned its adherents. 
    
    You cannot kill a fundamental truth...
    
    However, In My Opinion, it is written in an overpoweringly matronising
    style. I certainly couldn't image myself reading more than a 100 lines
    or so of this book...
    
    /. Ian .\

>    Heather - you've been around in here for a while now, and I would have
>    hoped that you would, at the very least, have learned that it is
>    appreciated here if you preface blanket statements with an "In my
>    opinion" statement.
 
	The base note specifically asked for " Please reply with thoughts,
	comments, as the fancy strikes".

	That's what I did, I put down what immediately struck me which was:
	"codswallop", and "Do people really buy this?".
   
>    If you want to say "In my opinion, this is codswallop", I have no
>    problem with that.

	That isn't what the base note asked for.

	If a considered opinion was requested, I would give one, however I wrote
	down what struck me.
	
>    If you keep issuing blanket statments like "Codswallop" without a
>    preface, especially on subjects that may be important to people in
>    here, you will become accustomed to the consistant reaction you will 
>    get. 

	I actually haven't got a consistant reaction here, I have had 
	discussions in some topice where a few people have agreed with me, and 
	many have disagreed, and I have had discussions where many have agreed,
	and a few have disagreed, I have had discussions which are just
	additional information or requests for more info. I have also had 
	mails of support.

	The discussions here are lively, I don't expect to always be considered
	right, or always to be understood, that sounds like a world of clones. 

>    Hopefully you will get bored with this and learn to change your
>    style to one that will get your views across more effectively in this
>    forum.
    
	I actually believe the one word sums up the fact it was what struck me,
	rather than the - in my opinion etc...... which would intimate that I
	had considered it for some time before replying.    

	Heather

    re: .15
    
    I believe you can find guidelines for "owning your opinions" in the
    guidelines (specifically 1.25).
    
    I did indeed ask for opinions, but hoped to get them gentled by the
    guidelines of the conference.  
    
    -Jody
    

    
    Jody,

	I didn't read your note as asking for opinions, but for an immediate
	respose to how it struck me, as I explained previously. If you would 
	like opinions, then I would understand more, if you asked for this.

	I have been following the voting topic, and some others, and have read 
	many of those, the majority of which are opinions, but not couched in 
	the phraseology you state.

	I still don't understand why this is the first note I have seen in
	the month I have been noting here, that anyone has brought this up, 
	when it is happening throught the conference.

	I have read note 1.25 now, This was written before I joined this 
	conference, so I was not aware of it, I took 1.0 to be the guidelines,
	as that is normally where they are, and also, 1.0 specifies that it
	is the guidelines.


	Even so, I still don't understand.

	If someone asks my opinion,

	"Codswallop" is not acceptable, whereas

	"In my opinion this is codswallop" is acceptable.

	Heather

    Heather
    
    Just a 'nit' here. Any time you go into a new conference you should
    read all of the 'guidllines'. Some conferences even have this as
    the conference banner (i.e. 'new noters read all of 1.* *before*
    writing.)
    
    Bonnie

re: .17
    
    >	I have read note 1.25 now, This was written before I joined this 
    >	conference, so I was not aware of it, I took 1.0 to be the guidelines,
    >	as that is normally where they are, and also, 1.0 specifies that it
    >	is the guidelines.

    Apologies for any confusion.  1.* gives you all the conference policies
    and guidelines.
    
>	If someone asks my opinion,
>
>	"Codswallop" is not acceptable, whereas
>
>	"In my opinion this is codswallop" is acceptable.

    Primarily, as outlined in 1.25, when you do not preface an emotion,
    opinion, idea, concept, or feeling with "I feel" or "I think" it puts
    the onus of the idea, concept, etc on the OTHER person, when in fact
    the onus belongs with you - they are your words and your concepts.  The
    "own your own stuff" paradigm is often used by facilitators when doing
    work with groups because it feels less judgemental and less
    threatening, and is less likely to result in defensive posturing or
    outright debate/argument.  When you say "Bulls#it" about something I
    believe, I feel you are judging not only what I said, but that it may
    also be an evalutation of me as a person, or my way of thinking or
    living, and that in turn may upset me or make me angry.  When you say
    "I think that's Bulls#it", I am more able to say to myself, "Okay, that
    is her opinion.  It is not being put forth as a universal truth, it is
    not a threat to me or my ideals.  It is her take, and very valid for
    her, but she's not forcing it on me as some judgment."
    
    Even with the above explanation, I realize that you may not understand
    since apparently you have a very self-assured background and seem to
    have high self-esteem and no problem with people offering challenging
    or negative statements about things you saay.  But not all of us are
    like that.  Yet.... ;)
    
    -Jody
    

	Okay, but why is it okay for everyone else, but not me?


	Two examples .11 in this topic:

	"Discovering our own spirituality is something each of us must do alone"

	Why is this not "in my opinion .......
	or " I think that.......

	and 342.216:

	"no war is worth fighting for"

	Why not:

	in my opinion no war.....
	or I beleive no war........

	This is happening in the majority of the notes I read.

	I misunderstood the base note to mean - "write what strikes you", 
	and not "write your considered opinion", - I have re-read it, and I 
	still read it as such - tho' I know understand that it's not what was 
	meant.

	I will go and read 1-1.25, but I hope that if I have to stick by all
	these guidelines, that everyone else will have to.

	Heather

re.0 my feelings, responses, and perceptions

> If, the first time you had experienced that sharp awareness of
> ego, of "me, I'm ME, not you"...you had been received and hugged and
> affirmed instead of shamed and isolated.

This is _very_ similar to what happened to me.  I was, from the 
beginning, encouraged and rewarded for being my_self_ [and in fact 
punished for trying to be like <name>].  The pressure to bury my 
_self_ came in my early teens ... far after the twig had been bent and 
far too late for me to see it as anything other than an offense 
against nature and order.

The 'mother' imagery is _extremely_ uncomfortable for me. 
[god-as-mother is a notion that quite literally makes me ill.  Lest any 
feel that this statement is a denigration of their personal belief 
system, I hurry to state emphatically that this is not the case -- the 
mother I know best, my own, is so far from nurturing, valuing, or 
loving that I cannot make a connection.]

I see a great deal of truth and value in the excerpts.

HOWEVER, I feel that they present a _very_ small part of what I want 
from self-awareness and self-validation.

Inner vision as 'descent' is a concept with which I am not 
comfortable.  As presented it is coupled with emotions and realities 
that have been portrayed as 'negative' when allowed at all.  Anger, 
sorrow, fear, pain ...

Far better to acknowledge and live with these realities in the light 
than to 'descend' to them.  To seek and find 'her own deepest nature
and give it voice' in light.

I do not agree that this knowledge and value of self can only be found 
in 'the still, dark realm of the unformed' ... we exist, even within 
ourselves, in the 'upper world' where we have, everyone, a right of 
place and a unique value.

I am probably _most_ uncomfortable with the focus upon 'masculine' and 
'feminine' nature.  Something within me feels a wrongness in such a 
dichotomy.  I am a woman; hence my nature can be _no_other_ than 
feminine whether it yearns to fly or yearns to bide ... and my process 
can be _no_other_ than feminine whether it tends to order or to chaos.

> "A woman must break out of the old mold.  She must risk disobeying the
> given decrees, those dictated from outside as well as those written
> within her by her past.  

Indeed. And the old compulsion to pidgeonhole her attributes as well. 
Sometimes, I feel that this insidious by-product of denial of a 
woman's self is the most damaging of all.

Pain & ecstasy, order & chaos, life & death  ... self- determination 
and self-identity.

Indeed life would be different if we were to grow up with a sense of 
connection and continuity -- yet as unique individuals -- rather than 
a sense of [should be] homogeneous islands in time.

  Annie

    
    
    re:   .6
    
    Jody - 
    
    Yeah. me too.  'specially the {oof!.. stumbled over myself again!}, and,
    most sadly, accepting (learning) who I am with a positive judgement on
    that knowledge.
    
    ... gee, it would be NICE to have that place.. of course ANYONE of ANY
    gender would profit emotionally from a refuge/resource lijke that..
    
    
    jamd
    

    Interesting point here..
    
    My mother in law gave me the book for Christmas because it meant
    a lot to �her.
    
    I started to read it and was very put off by the woman's style
    of writing which I found affected. 
    
    So I can understand where Heather is coming from. 
    
    Now that there has been so much controversy over the exerpt
    I'll have to go back and read it again.
    
    Thanks for entering the base note Jody.
    
    Bonnie

	Hi folkes,


	I have a few emergencies here, I haven't dissapeared, but I may not get
	back to you for at least today.


	Heather    phew! at least the network's stayed up this long.....

	As the initial note mentioning hogwash has been deleted, I have
	deleted .22 and .23.

	I'm still considering .1

	Heather

 IMO As an atheist, I consider .0 to offensive to atheists in that it totally
disregards the logical approach to the existence and behaviour of women.

    re: descending.
    
    I think this clicked with me because of a book I read (was it "Women's
    Reality"? - I think so) which discussed how when women are feeling
    insecure they discuss it as a feeling of hollowness, a depth or pit
    within them, a hole, which often seems located near the solar plexus. 
    You'll sometimes see them curled up, sitting or lying, and explicitly
    cradling this part of their body with their arms when they are feeling
    hurt or whatever (I have noticed this in myself also).  
    
    It sometimes almost feels  like a discontinuity, or something I can
    stand on the edge of and look down into, dizzilly, wondering if I will
    fall in and lose myself completely.  
    
    There are theories that this relates to compulsive eating - an attempt
    to fill the hole and make ourselves whole with a readily available
    material...food
    
    -Jody
    

> IMO As an atheist, I consider .0 to offensive to atheists in that it totally
>disregards the logical approach to the existence and behaviour of women.


	You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment!
 

    I posted my decision in another topic, saying I would leave .1 as it stands.
  
    Heather   

    re.30 on 'descent' and 'hollowness'
    
    Certainly my own personal reality has included feelings of insecurity,
    emptiness and worthlessness ... and often still does.  At present, I'm
    facing some pretty harsh realities that strike at the core of my own
    identity as a woman ... a twilight time.
    
    I can descend to these realities, but _I_ cannot deal with them in
    darkness. I carry my light with me and I rout them out. I sit on the
    edge of the abyss in stillness and wonder in a cloud of cool and
    brilliant mist and I worry at my fears until I extract what I must own
    and toss the detritus back into the void.
    
    The woman who taught me the way of looking inward taught me to look
    inward to knowing and light.
    
      Annie

    do you have any texts on the inward knowingness and light?  I've read
    Louise L. Haywood?'s "Living in the Light", but nothing particularly
    about self-enlightenment with light.
    
    I guess I've always thought that mucking out the inner turmoil and
    "growing from it" always seemed a task, rather than a delight - perhaps
    that's where I can learn more.
    
    -Jody
    

Traditionally Buddhist "enlightenment" has meant just that - a blinding moment
of light and clarity (well not blinding really - more like opening up
perception and realizing your previous blindness). There is serious argument
about enlightenment though - whether it is/can be a *process* or is an *event*,
and whether the event must be preceeded by the process. The process might be
akin to the "mucking out" that you describe Jody.

Personally I find that by concentrating on the "light" inside me the "muck"
tends to dry up and blow away...

	-- Charles

    no, Jody, I have no texts.  the manner in which I was taught was in the
    manner of oral tradition -- passed down 'by hand and by heart' to me
    through 'teachers' and many 'generations.'  No doubt texts exist, but I
    never felt the need to seek them out.
    
    'Mucking out' is indeed a chore.  That's why I endeavour to avoid
    anything that remotely ressembles it in my inner journey -- if getting
    to know myself is a chore, than _I_ probably would not bother.
    
    Light and mists and inner stillness are the means/images that allow me
    to embrace my self -- my nature/vision and my process/journey -- and
    enable me to share that self with others. 'Muck' is something I do not
    hurry to embrace and do not want to share.
    
    The gut-wrenching 'Why?!' can echo in dark caverns of my heart and mind
    with it's seductive undertones of shame and fatal flaws or it can be
    embraced as honest grief and examined, understood and dealt with.
    
      Annie