Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    Personally, if my man hit me it would go a long way to showing me that
    he wasn't a "real man".  I would also start packing my bags *very* 
    quickly.                  
    
    Sam
    

    re: -1
    
    Your bags????? I'd start packing HIS bags..... actually, maybe a
    garbage bag with holes in it would be better!
    
    Jill
    

    This posting seems somewhat inappropriate in a responsible forum
    such as this one. It gives no source, the details are very general,
    and even ambiguous: are the 75% who were beaten over 50, or were all
    those surveyed over 50?  how is beating defined?  who, where, and when
    was the survey done? (Southern Italy is many years behind in women's
    rights, for example.)
    
    I could comment on the validity of the survey from personal experience
    (see my recent intro), but it would be much more responsible to first
    clarify the facts.
    
    Ciao,
    AndyT (in Rome)
    
    
                 

    Well, I invited the man who entered the basenote into the Sports
    file to enter the note himself into =wn=.
    
    I suggest the first line of business would be to write to him
    and ask him for more information.
    
    Bonnie

I'm afraid to ask why it was entered in the Sports notes file.

Kathy

    RE .4
    
    I won't argue appropriateness, it's a matter of personal opinion.
    I find it uncomfortable to read about women who enjoy abuse, and
    I agree it would be beneficial to find out more about the boundaries
    of the study.
    
    As for packing bags, if I could afford it, I'd pack and leave so I
    couldn't be found... if broke, he's gone with a restraining order.
    
    Christine

    Reading about women who enjoy abuse does make me very
    uncomfortable, yes, but I don't think that avoiding the issue that
    there *are* women who support male violence is very helpful.
    
    I'm not sure what is helpful. I'm still trying to get over the
    creepy feeling.  But.
    
    --bonnie

    Kathy
    
    He entered it in the Sports file becuase, he was disturbed by the
    article and Sports was a file, or the only US file he followed.
    The note  was forwarded to me and I suggested to the author
    that he'd get a more serious response in =wn=.
    
    Bonnie

    Let's see...glorification of sex roles - it is a badge of honor 
    that her husband can dish it out and she can take it.  
    Living through him to the extent that she takes pride in his
    abusiveness.  Belief that negative attention is better than no 
    attention at all (he cares enough to hit me).  Masochism (not to
    be confused with the practice of s&m) - didn't Freud say that all 
    women are masochists?
    	Linda

    I forgot one, actually believing that physical violence is an
    expression of love.
    	Linda

    He hit me and it felt like a kiss . . .
    
    from a song by the Motels, a band I otherwise like very much.
    
    --bonnie

    Re .12: Originally (?) from "Carousel", when Billy-as-angel slaps his
    daughter...
    
    -b

    I always question the validity of surveys.  Who did they talk to? How
    big was the sample?  How were the questions worded?  
    
    I have a hard time believing that anyone enjoys being hit but
    if violence is an accepted part of someone's reality (culture etc.) then
    the answers to questions regarding her husband hitting her might be much
    different than most of ours.
    
    Remember the movie "The Color of Purple" when the much abused woman
    played by Woopie Glodberg advises her stepson to beat his wife?
        

    
    While we can argue the validity of the survey - statistically - we are
    probably correct in assuming that a number of women responded as
    indicated in the base note.
    
    I feel sort of sick when I think about *any* woman who is abused, and
    even worse if she likes it.   
    
    Most of us have known for a long time that the European norms of
    male/female roles are different (in our minds, actually backward) from
    those in the US.  And the Italian stereotypes are extreme in my mind.
    
    But in a society sector that seems to value very "feminine" and very "male"
    roles as the norm, this violence is especially disturbing.  Even in our 
    own fifties model of Donna Reed and Mrs. Cleaver lookalikes we did not
    revere violence against women.  Is there something wrong with us, or
    with "them"?
    
    -m
    
    

    re: .11
    
    You forgot another - having a man is the most prestigeous role in life. 
    Even one that beats you.
    
    I once spoke to a woman who was beaten by her husband, and her reply to
    the counselor when asked why she put up with it was :   "At least I 
    *Have* a man, not like some people I know."    The counselor was a
    single woman.
    
    
    -m

    I don't think many women who are beaten enjoy it. Many tolerate it be-
    cause of low self-esteem. Because they've convinced themselves that
    they deserve it. Because they love him. Because of financial security,
    a roof overher head, food and clothing for the children. Because of
    what the neighbors will think. Because she believes she's made her bed
    and now has to sleep in it.
    
    It's very sad.
    
    Kate

    
     <<< Note 475.15 by COOKIE::CHEN "Madeline S. Chen, D&SG Marketing" >>>
    
    >>Most of us have known for a long time that the European norms of
    >>male/female roles are different (in our minds, actually backward) from
    >>those in the US.
    
    This is an uninformed American point of view. Europe consists of several
    *different* states with *different* cultural profiles, including
    male/female roles.
    
    Sigh...
    Bo

    re:.18
    
    sorry about grammatical errors - it's a good thing no one else saw that
    :)
    
    
    

    ok ok ok
    
    I did not intend to generalize all Europeans into the Italian "state",
    with similar or stereotyped norms - neither did I intend to imply that
    all Italian women agree with the survey.  None of this is relevant to
    the real content of either the base note or my reply.
    
    Just think, folks, this note topic is serious.   Let's stop giving
    geography/sociology lessons.  I thought we were discussing the violence
    of men (who happen to be Europeans from the Italian state) against
    women (who also happen to be Europeans from the Italian state), and the
    opinion of those women about the violence they have experienced.
    
    From a woman who happens to be from Webster Groves, Missouri, U.S.A.,
    and who does not write grammatically correct notes replies.
    
    -m
    

    Madeline,
    
    Not about implications or to say the basenote topic isn't important,
    but I do think the cultural differences may cloud this. I think if you
    were to conduct a survey in one of the fundamentalist Islamitic
    countries, you'd be able to come up with even more alarming responses
    to questions like this. On the whole it's true that in Europe you'll
    find more traditional role patterns, especially when going south or
    asking older people and the survey did just that. It's not surprising
    to see that these women don't see a "good spanking" (which is probably
    what we're talking about!) as abuse, more as an appropriate reaction
    from a 'real' man to a 'bad wife'. After all, these role patterns are
    well defined and give a safe handle on what is right and wrong,
    whatever you and I may think of it. Once they feel it as abuse
    themselves, it's something different entirely. Notwithstanding the
    opinion I offer in other notes, but I'm not so sure how to handle this.
    
    Ad
    
    PS: In my more active times in the left-wing-pinko-politics I came onto
    a very difficult discussion point with an older fellow "party animal"
    when it came to the question: Once you make someone conscious of the
    fact (s)he is in a repressive situation, how do you handle your
    responsibility from there? Provided you can't end the situation
    immediately, you'll leave them in it with that difference that they now
    *know* they're being repressed. If this situation isn't easily changed,
    they now have to fight something they were initially comfortable with
    in order to regain that original peace of mind. Is that fair? Then
    again, if you don't do anything, nothing will happen. I've never really
    been able to answer that, and this topic reminded me of that, hence
    this note. Now back to the regularly scheduled program :-)