Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    First, I apologize for splashing others.  I attempt to not generalize,
    and I attempt to restrain any anger or confusion or frustration to the
    actual people or situations that provoked those emotions, and try to do
    so in as non-blaming a situation as possible particularly if they
    provoked those unintentionally, but I am imperfect.
    
    Second, I have been being splashed by some of Eric's notes, because I
    tried to explain my pain in a poem, and tried to apologize for any hurt
    I caused him, or other men.  Part of me realized I may not have been
    intended to be the one pained by some of his broad-brushed paintings,
    but part of me was saddened by the fact that he was hurt, and in turn
    felt a need to scream loudly enough that people would respond to his
    hurt, and may have splashed them by his responses....
    
    I have a sincere hope that by admitting when things genuinely hurt (as
    Martin Minow kindly explained in his note about how it felt when he
    encountered FWO stuff) - and having those admittances accepted and
    supported (whether restitution is given or not) that some healing can
    occur in this community, and thereby some sense of increased 
    peace and comfort and reduction of threat and pain can be accomplished.
    
    This is no diatribe against Eric or Martin or Anyone.  We all have
    pain.  The greatest amount of pain I feel in this conference is for
    those who feel unheard, and those who feel they have wondrous things to
    say and nobody is listening, for I have BEEN one of those people on
    occasion (although I am too vocal these days and suffer from a surfeit
    of verbosity sometimes, I guess ;).
    
    May this topic flourish and may the conference be healed by the
    resulting discussion. 
    
    Blessed be.
    
    -Jody

    oooh, i *like* this topic.

    Eric, you have my thanks for turning on this Note. I see it as a
    beginning to help all of us ease the hurt and pain and the attacks
    and counter-attacks that have been swirling around this file. 

    Eric, much of what you have been saying the past few weeks has
    made me angry sad, and frustrated. Angry because I felt you were
    ignoring others, intentionally or not, by pushing your points of
    view in bulldozer fashion without regard for anybody else. Sad
    because people were being hurt. There was lots of destruction but
    very little construction. Frustrated because there seemed to be
    nothing I, or anyone else, could do to stop these ravages.

    My frustrations were expressed in a note that was, in essence, a
    personal attack on you. The notes served no useful purpose except
    to pour gasoline on an already-raging inferno. I think you
    received a copy before the moderators in their cool-headed wisdom
    deleted the note. (Thank you, Bonnie!)

    Language is subtle. There are the words themselves, and the
    meaning behind the words. In verbal conversation the subtleties
    are communicated by tone of voice, facial expression, body
    English, etc. There is active and immediate feedback between
    conversants which question and clarify, so there is less chance of
    misunderstanding. 

    But in written communication the shades of meaning and fine points
    do not always come across to the reader. Feedback and
    clarification can take days, or forever. People vary widely in
    their writing skills, leading to misinterpretation and
    misunderstanding and general bad feelings all around. Very few
    people can express themselves, for example, like Justine, whose
    eloquence and clarity can move us all. 

    Many Notes, perhaps a majority, deal with emotions. You can't
    argue with or deny somebody's emotions. But this has been done
    over and over again in this file by noters who deny another
    noter's actual emotions and feelings. Let us respect each others
    inner perceptions. If, for example, I say I am angry, you can ask
    why I feel angry, what made me angry, etc., but you can't argue
    that I don't feel angry.

    I think that in general (here we go again -- this is a
    generality!) men, in contrast to women, are less apt to accept
    their feelings. Women listen to, and believe, their emotions more
    than men do. Men want "rational," factual reasons (which may or
    may not exist) for their behavior. In notes, this means that men
    are more apt to argue on a point counter-point basis, dismantling
    and discussing the notes of others virtually sentence by
    sentence. This style of noting has helped contributed to bad
    feeling. Some of us men would do better to both recognize and use
    the awesome power of emotions.

    So let us push forward together. Let us listen to each other. Let
    us communicate better. What everybody says here is important. The
    world is changed by the action of individuals. You can make a
    difference. This file is read by hundreds. What you say can
    influence people you will never meet. You can tear this world
    down, or you can help make it world a better place. It's up to us.
    Let's do it right!

    Bruce

288.0

-Hamp

re .8

	's okay.

-Hamp

	I suppose this is an appropriate topic.....at least the theme
	of it is close to what I'm about to say....


	I've been a real bear lately.  I've been under a lot of stress
	in my personal life and it's pervaded into NOTES....especially
	in this conference where I always strive to be fair, understanding
	and accepting of difference.....but it doesn't always come
	out like that. (In fact, many times it comes out exactly
	opposite).

	I guess what I'm trying to say is if I've made anyone angry in
	here in the last few weeks, I'm sorry.  I just don't always say
	things the way I mean to....especially when I'm stressed
	emotionally.

	kathy

    I know this isn't the right string, but...
    
    *huuuuug*
    
    Hope things are getting better, Kath.
    
    ...and thanks.
    
    						=maggie

    re:.10:
    
    Kath,
    
    It takes a big person to admit that in this forum. You have my respect
    and admiration.
    
Kate

    
    regarding 338.94
    
    "...don't think he is trainable or educatable...."
    
    splash, especially with the "trainable" part
    
    

    Sorry Karen Ballam, I didn't mean to hurt you...
    
    There are Joyce's of this world to...believe me..
    
    

    re .14   Thank you, Joyce.  I'm still feeling surprised and hurt,
    and I want to appologize to anyone who felt hurt by my seeming
    intolerance around cleanliness.  I'm gonna try to explain myself
    in a non-judgemental way in 419.  If I can't figure a way to
    do that (explain in a non-judgemental way) then I'll drop it.
    
    karen

    it's not a simple question of right or wrong. i know that he's wrong.
    but was i 'standing for my principles' or was i merely picking on him? 
    if i knew in my heart that there was no chance of any sort of change 
    in his view, or even a gentlemanly agreement to disagree, and i 
    continued to push my position, i have to face the possibility that
    i did it for my own enjoyment. in such situations, is 'standing for  
    my priciples' just an excuse for game playing? maybe not. maybe it 
    does help or make a difference in the long run. maybe if we don't, 
    the 'bad guys' would be even worse. but i feel that i have disturbed 
    my own karma, that in some way i let 'battle lust' get the best of me. 
    i let their most insidious tool work its evil. at least i can
    apologize and try let it go....

    
    Re -1
    and some off-line stuff...
    
    I think I'm feeling sort of the flip side of your emotion, and it's no 
    more comfortable, if that's any consolation.
    
    I let go straight away - didn't go into battle, didn't give in to my
    fightin' instincts.
    I feel like I sold out, I didn't even "make a stand", and that by
    "giving in" so easily I have lost a chance to maybe - just possibly -
    enable someone to see something in a new way. I *know* that most likely
    my fighting would have been as fruitless and (maybe) wrongly motivated
    as you seem to feel yours was, but I still feel that I've stepped
    one small step away from my principles. 
    So my karma feels disturbed to.
    
    Different actions - same disquiet.
    
    'gail
         

    
    in both cases, i note, our 'purer' impulses are thrown off by
    'violence'
    

    re 456.6, Bonnie (R-S)-
    
    Ouch.
    
    >    It might help for us all to keep in mind that just as not every
    > man thinks the only position for women in an orginazation is on
    > her back, not every woman working at Digital, not even every woman
    > in this file, is ready to throw out centuries of tradition and
    > start over from scratch with the woman on top.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    That characterization of radical feminists felt like a slap.  I don't
    think you meant it that way, I was happily reading through your note of
    appeal for moderation and care of others feelings, and *whap*.  It was
    very hard to read the rest of your message with an open mind.  I only
    did so after David_W described your note in his HoF nomination.  But I
    still can't see *any* feminist in this file wanting what you described!
    A desire for change, yes.  But a reversal of roles?  Ouch.
    
    DougO
    

    
    	RE: .19  DougO
    
    	Thanks, Doug - the phrase felt like a slap to me, too.
    

RE .19 and .20

    Several of the phrases in Bonnie's piece were offensive if used to
    describe  someone  (including  the  one  you  object to), but each
    followed  a  phrase saying that not everyone was like that. I read
    it as saying that most of the community in fact held none of those
    positions.

--David

    
    	RE: .21  David
    
    	"Not ALL" implies the assertion that "some do," though.
    
    	Would you be comfortable if someone said, "Not ALL Wittenbergs
    	roast little children in their ovens during the holidays."
    

    I'm very sorry.  I was referring to my separatist feminist friend
    who *does* think that, and I forgot that she wasn't in this file
    or known to everybody.  I think I've mentioned her before, though.
    
    --bonnie

    ok, Bonnie.  Thanks.
    
    DougO

    	RE: .26  Mike Z.

    	DougO said the note felt like a slap, and I followed it with the
    	comment that the note felt like a slap to me, TOO (meaning that
    	I perceived it as a slap to some feminists, but not to me in
    	particular.)  "To me" refers to "the note felt" (as in, "the note
    	sounded to me like..."  Do you see the difference?

    	> Now you tell me that "some feminists" or "some women" is a
    	> reference to you, just because you're a woman/feminist.

    	No, that's not it.

    	Let me try this again.  What if someone said, "Not ALL the men
    	in Digital are over 20 feet tall" - wouldn't it leave some people
    	wondering if some men in Digital *ARE* over 20 feet tall?  They
    	could even assume so, based on the way the statement is phrased.

    	The statement to which I was responding was a similar situation -
    	"NOT ALL WOMEN in this file xxxxx" (which implies that some women
    	in this file DO xxxxx" which I took as a slap since xxxxx was
    	mentioned in an offhand manner as though it were a given that some
    	women here DO xxxxx, even though this has never been substantiated.)

    	Another example would be "NOT ALL MEN in Womannotes are axe murderers."
    	("You mean at least some men here *ARE* axe murderers????")  See what
    	I mean?  It implies something that hasn't been substantiated.

    	It's an entirely different case to say, "NOT ALL MEN are violent"
    	(since we already know for a fact that some men *are* violent on in
    	our society.)  The same thing holds for "NOT ALL WOMEN are angry"
    	(since we know that some women *are* angry.)

    	Hope this helps.

    and let us not forget that Bonnie and I have reconciled over this
    inadvertant slip.  She did not challenge that I or other feminists
    might feel as we did; nor did she intend that we feel that way.
    Let the matter be dropped.
    
    DougO

    
    Lorna, I'm going to be straight-out honest with you.  I know you're
    joking, but having been *really* heavy, and knowing I will never be
    thin, it stings.  Even if it's joking.
    
    I just felt the need to say that, and now I feel better.....it's just a
    button I have that you accidentally tap-danced on.  I'm not irate and
    I'm not distraught and I'm not crying and there's no need to apologize
    or anything.  I just had to get it out of my system.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jody
    
            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 58.1017                       The Rathole                      1017 of 1019
WRKSYS::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds"          5 lines  12-NOV-1990 08:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You mean some people have thighs that *touch*?  What an amazing
    concept!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Did I miss something here?  I don't see anything in .31 or .32 that
    says Lorna is not attractive.
    
    Mary

    
    I guess these last few replies show that a lot of us are sensitive
    about looks.  We might all do well to remember that.
    
    and i hope i'd say that even if my thighs didn't touch :-)
    
    Justine

    It appears lately that a lot of us are accidentally splashing
    each other. It may well be the tense times the company is going
    through but there is a higher degree of 'ouchiness' in notes
    lately.
    
    Can we all try and 1. do a sanity test on our own writings to
    be careful of wording so as not to deliberately or accidentally
    take offense.
    
    2. do a sanity test on what we read and try not to take offense
    when none was meant?
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comoderator

          re: 343.29 (Jody Bobbitt)

          Jody writes:

          >  Lorna, I'm going to be straight-out honest with you.  I know
          >  you're joking, but having been *really* heavy, and knowing I
          >  will never be thin, it stings.  Even if it's joking.

          in response to Lorna's 58.1017:

          >>   You mean some people have thighs that *touch*?  What an
          >>   amazing concept!  :-)

          When I read the above, I thought, [someone's gonna be zinged by
          that] just as when I read of people bragging about their SAT
          scores, it was predictable that others would feel hurt.

          Yet, I must admit my first response to Lorna's above note was:

          "You mean some people have SAT scores below *1400*?  What
           an amazing concept!  ;-)"

                                                  nancy b.


    
    Lorna, don't go.  First of all, I think you express yourself with great
    clarity, and I've always considered you to be both smart and beautiful.
    
    OK, I thought a bunch of people came at you pretty hard, Lorna, but
    you were hanging in there and giving it right back, and I thought you
    were feeling ok about working this through until I just read your last
    note.  So.. Lorna, -d, E, NancyB, Jody, and Eagles (did I get everyone 
    in this?): what would you all like to do about this?  Delete your notes 
    in this string and start over?  Keep trying to work this out (either here 
    or offline)?   Just let me know if I can help you settle this.
    
    I haven't set anything hidden because I can't see any rules being
    broken, and I think the expression of anger can be a healthy thing --
    but only if everyone involved wants to participate in the resolution.
    In this case, I think there is a combination of sensitive issues and 
    misunderstandings, and I think it could be resolved without anyone having 
    to leave mad.
    
    How about you all leave this string for now and come back to it in the
    morning?
    
    Justine
                   

    Hugs to all of you, esp Nancy and Lorna and Jody..
    
    an Lorna, if you get really bored on a Sat you can always
    come over to my house and sort laundry!
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    	Lorna,
    
    	I didn't appreciate your comment about the number of
    	dates I've had in the past 2 years.
    
    						nancy b.
    

    Hi Lorna,
    
    I'm glad you didn't leave, and came back to share how you feel about
    having skinny thighs.  
    
    Please stay, you have a lot to give.
    
    Kim

	Lorna.......I understand your frustration at having "skinny"
	thighs.

	I'll tell you what......

	

	Let's trade!!!! 8-)


	Kath_who_got_blown_off_by_two_different_men_friday_night_and
	    _spent_the_evening_alone

    re:  skinny thighs, fat thighs, dateless fri. and sat. nights, sat
    scores.
    
    
    Good grief!   
    
    Picture all of us sitting in a cafeteria or a conference room; would
    we say the things we say in here the way there being said in here.
    
    Wasted disk space if you ask me.
    
    Maia
    

    
    Maia,
    
    I agree that face to face, some of the things that folks have written
    here might have been left unsaid.  But.. given that some folks have
    had their feelings hurt, I'm glad that they've chosen to stick it out
    and explain what they meant and how they felt.  I think this is going
    really well.
                                                            
    Justine

    in my original note in here I expressed how I *felt* about her comment,
    and that I did not wish an apology (nor in fact would I like a
    deletion), but I just had to say how it made me feel.  That in itself
    made me feel better - to express my feelings, just as Lorna had
    expressed her feelings about people jokingly (or not so jokingly)
    posting their SAT scores.  
    
    I in no way wished to put Lorna down or insult her, I merely expressed
    my own feelings as they came up around my weight, and the "ideal body"
    that the vogue-ish stylists would have most women pursue.  
    
    There is seldom any way to soothe the ruffled feathers of jealousy over
    the cards we're dealt, but let me say that I wish there would be more
    peace in the file, and more acceptance of one another HOWEVER we are,
    and more leeway for people expressing pain and concern and confusion
    and jealousy.  I, for one, and going to try to reset my hair-triggers
    to some degree.  
    
    And I was unaware that you, Lorna, felt that slender thighs were not
    the wonder that modern beauty has built them up to seem to be.....
    
    My apologies for having stung....
    
    -Jody
    

    I have deleted all of my previous replies to this topic.
    
    I apologize to everyone who was offended by my tactless comment about
    having thin thighs.
    
    I believe it has finally been brought home to me how touchy a subject
    weight is to many people, and in future I will do my best not to let
    slip any comments about being slim.
    
    Lorna
    

Sorry you were splashed Mike. I'm sure Maggie didn't intend it. The way I read
that statement "and, having only half a brain, is forced to behave like a
complete a**hole toward women." is that only a man with half a brain would act
like such an asshole. That men with their brains intact would know better. I
hope this doesn't make the spash worse, but I agree with her. This guy WAS being
an asshole and was acting like he had only half a brain. That in no way means
that all men act like that or have only half brains, far from it: most men
DON'T act like that - that's why *this* guy is an asshole.

Hope this helps.

	-- Charles

    Thanks Charles, that's the way I took =maggies reply also, that
    it is only the very small number of men that dont think that would
    act that way..
    
    and Mike, I'm also sorry that hit you as a splash.
    
    
    Bonnie

    
    	Actually, folks, Maggie was speaking specifically about two HALVES
    	of one personality - and was describing only HALF of a person when
    	she said he had HALF a brain.
    
    	It was satire (mocking the article posted about feminism.)
    

    
    	No one's giving an argument - only trying to clear up an
    	obvious misunderstanding.
    
    	By the way, there's no blame attached to "misunderstanding"
    	something - it's the result of an imperfect communication
    	system (including both our language and the medium upon
    	which we utilize it.)
    

Mike - I *am* sorry you got splashed. Sorry. It was an accident. I think you
misunderstood what Maggie meant, I don't think she meant it the way you heard.
I'm sorry you felt slammed. Really. I'm not trying to say you're wrong or that
you heard wrong, just that what you heard wasn't what Maggie was trying to say.

Suzanne (and Mike) - can you rephrase your note(s) to use "I" language? I find
it much easier to listen to and relate to people talking about themselves and
how they feel than people talking about how other people behave and how they
(ought to) feel.

One technique that helps me is to mentally rephrase what a person said into
"I" language, but I find it much easier when that's how things are phrased to
start with.

	Thanks,
	-- Charles

    
    	RE: .65  Charles
    
    	Well, my notes weren't about feelings, but I do see what you
    	mean about "I" language.
    
    	I was trying to help clear up a misunderstanding (and want to
    	make sure it is also understood that "misunderstanding" does
    	not imply blame to anyone.)  The communication system in use
    	is imperfect.
    

    Sorry for the confusion, Mike.  

I am an honorable member of the Boston Hash House Harriers and I really
resent our motto "Only half a mind" being used in this disparaging
fashion, and besides it wasn't even quoted correctly, which doubles
or even quadruples the insult.

Remember, if you only have half a mind to run with the Hash, that's all
it takes.

Martin.

about Note 573.67or so, and up
         Christmas traditions we could (please) do without
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I'm gonna apologize
    
    not for what I said, but for what it started.  I don't like the
    characterization of virtues as c/Christian, since it feels to me like
    that characterization has a proprietary sense, but I also don't like the
    tone that has come on since, and I feel somewhat responsible.
    
    I did not and do not mean to attack anyone's faith, nor to deny that a
    faith may espouse virtuous feelings and behavior.  My only point is
    that no faith owns virtue, though a faith may teach virtue, and may
    expect it, and reward it.  Certainly the best aspect and application of
    'most any faith you can name -- including Christianity -- does just
    those things.
    
    Sara

    
    593.32 makes me physically ill
    

    >593.32 makes me physically ill
    
    I thought he was being sarcastic...the bit about bombing schools and
    senior citizen centers just seemed like too much for even a hard-core
    gung-ho type, so I just figured he was deomonstrating his distaste for
    the whole war thing by writing a parody of the gung-ho type.
    
    I could be wrong.  I guess I like to think positive, it being the
    holiday season and all.
    
    D!

    
    i obviously have no sense of humor when it comes to war.
    
    :-P
    

I read that note and find that that though there were some excesses
and exaggeration that plan will pretty much be what the war will be
like.

There'll be no need for 50 days of bombing, we'll probably be bombing 
targets in Iraq for some amount of time like 10 days before we move
on the ground. I don't think we would ever use ICBM's against Iraq, 
that would just not be a correct reaction to anything less than a nuclear
attack. Also I think the US forces have a good record being careful
to avoid civilian targets during bombing raids. 

War is horriable and we should be getting our minds right about what is 
going to happen or we should convince our government to not start one.

Fred Mudgett

    Something I remember from 1969 Dartmouth college... written on a
    wall...
    
    
    WAR + LOVE + PEACE = HELL
    
    Large lettersd on Hopkins Center walls... Still remember that wall
    after all these years.. The meaning still has not changed...
    
    
    REK

    Re: .78

>    Thank you very much for implying that I am so poisoned that I can't
>    think straight.  How apropos in the Splashes topic, and how typical. 
>    If the law isn't on your side, and the facts aren't on your side,
>    impugn your opponent's character.

	"How typical"??  Isn't that a bit ironic?

    Please discuss war in the topics about war.  Please reserve this for
    splashes.
    
    -Jody
    

    "***co-moderator nudge***" does this mean that you're a self-confessed
        "NOODGE" 
    (best attempt at transliteration, but sometimes rendered as "nudge"?)
    
    Probly not...  :-)

    _splash_
    
    	"<just/mere/only> date rape"
    
    It ouches me every time I see this one ... as if my torn cartilage,
    contusions, concussion, etc. were somehow only a case of fast talk and
    regrets ... just like the DA said.
    
      Annie

    
    
    58.1957
    
    I'm trying to be very sensitive and understanding, yet trying to also
    express my feelings and my concerns.
    
    And I get told that someone thinks so little of me that they couldn't
    care less what I think.
    
    Why are you so hateful/spiteful to me?  What did I EVER do to you?
    
    
    This has been a VERY bad week for me emotionally.  If I caused
    anyone any anger by what I've said in here, I'm sorry, it was never
    intended.  I've tried over and over and over again in this conference
    to talk in "I" terms and to be very understanding and really LISTEN. 
    It seems that I'm not even good enough to succeed at that.
    
    :-(
    
    Kath

You're right, my note was inappropriate, I've deleted it.  Sorry.

D!

    re .1957
    
    Kathy, I wish I felt I was in a position to say the things that would
    make you feel better. But I really did think that you were being
    unsympathetic. And your response was to call me a bigot, because I'm
    not "color-blind" even though being color-blind is a very STUPID thing
    for black people to be. Maybe you don't believe that there is racism in
    America. But I do. And I think I'm better qualified to judge.
    
    Kathy, I've read your notes for a while now. Your opinion on many
    issues is very different from mine. I'm not big on censorship, and
    I see no reason to take offense at what you said, because you have a
    different reference point than I do. But I did think it was my right to
    make it clear that I would not give you the power to label me a bigot.
    I will not wear the label you wish to give me. And because I have not
    only read your notes here in Womannotes, but have also heard many black
    people speak of the hatchet job you often do on them in Soapbox, I felt
    it was appropriate to let you know that I've come to the conclusion
    that your viewpoint does not correspond to my reality. And when your
    viewpoint and my reality coincide, I'm not going to assign any value to
    your viewpoint. This is not to say that you have no difficulty finding
    men. That's YOUR reality. But it does mean that when you call me a
    bigot, I will feel free to laugh in your face.
    
    If you ever decide that maybe I'm not bigotted, I may also decide that
    your viewpoint is not worth ignoring.

    
    
    'ren
    
    I didn't call you a bigot, I said that I felt it was a bigotted
    attitude.  To me there is a distinct difference.  
    
    Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean that I feel they
    are slime.  I feel that disagreement is the spice of life.  I would
    HATE it if it disappeared.
    
    I've don't know the colour of the people that I discuss things with in
    Soapbox.  And there has only been twice that I've ever participated in
    the Racism/Black notes.  The first time was over the discussion of some
    Gun's 'n Roses lyrics where I attempted to relay why Axl wrote/sings
    the lyrics that he does and what he has said that they mean to him. 
    The second time was a discussion about the Spike Lee issue of Spin
    magazine which I felt expressed some negativity toward "white" people,
    and which I felt did little to "help" black/white relations (ie, my
    point was that he could have used it to foster relations, yet I got the
    feeling that it served to only widen the gap).
    
    I don't "do hatchet jobs."  Yes, I have a strong personality.  Yes,
    when I truly FEEL something deep inside, I feel the NEED to express
    what I feel.  I don't insult, I don't degrade, and I don't belittle. 
    Sometimes people feel that I do all three.  I can't own their feelings,
    only they can.  I can only own my expressions, and I work VERY hard to
    be valuing and understanding and sympathetic while NOT compromising my
    beliefs and my right to expression.
    
    I'm sorry you feel the way you do, and I'm sorry you were offended that
    I felt a particular attitude that I felt you were portraying was
    bigotted.  That doesn't mean I think you ARE a bigot, in general......
    
    Considering that I said you would probably hate me and be angry at me
    for expressing the way I felt when reading your notes, then I'm willing
    to accept your anger.  
    
    I'm not asking you to WEAR the label of bigot.....I'm just telling you
    how I felt when I read it.  Believe it or not, I've asked NOTHING of
    you.....................
    
    And I don't know why I'm feeling the need to discuss one of my
    Splashes.  I felt hurt, I EXPRESSED that hurt in an NON-OFFENSIVE way.
    I'm not going to get into a cat-fight with you if that's what you want.
    
    You're welcome to scream at me all you want, if I feel hurt, I'm going
    to say so, but I'm not going to degrade you, belittle you, or throw a
    sarcastic retort at you because of it.
    
    I won't "fight" you, and I don't feel the need to respond directly to
    what I feel are harrassing/disparaging comments.  If something bothers
    me, I'll say so, I won't go off and scream...that's just how I am.  
    
    kathy
    
    

    We have now heard both sides of the story, once.
    
    This is the Splashes topic, and discussing or arguing can go on
    elsewhere, reserving this topic for something like the "hot buttons"
    topic - a mention of a feeling, without debate.
    
    If you wish to continue this discussion please do so in another topic
    - maybe 786, or maybe if you feel you have made your statements you
    could take further communication offline if you wished.
    
    -Jody
    

    I guess this is the right place for this.  I would like to apologize
    to any an all who were offended, by things I said in Topic 785.
    I did not intend to attack feminism or feminists and if people felt
    "bashed" by what I said, I hope you will accept my apology.
    
    I consider myself to be one who supports equality for women, and by
    most definitions that makes me a feminist.  I don't always agree with
    other feminists and I want them to value my differences, but I don't
    want to devalue theirs.
    
    Now I'm going to make another splash - in the floatation tank!
    I guess I could use some hugs, too.  I miss E.
    
    Mary

    I'm sorry, Justine, that you took personally the comment I meant about
    this file sounding like "OLD_BITYNOTES". I wasn't referring to anyone's
    appearance or age. Or whether they're "old maids". 
    
    It's just that I do wish that people would state their case well and
    state it once. This bickering is wearing me down. It's also disuading
    some people to note here. 
    
    Justine, I'm not saying you are the one doing the bickering. I'm just
    clarifying why I entitled the note OLD_BITTYNOTES. It often reminds me
    of a chicken coop with everyone cackling in all directions. No wonder
    why I like the city so much. :^).
    
    Peace to all (thin and thickskinned alike)
    Kate 

    
    too angry to write more at this time.
    

        Lynne,
        
        I'm sorry I splashed you in the flo[a]tation tank. I
        wasn't trying to make fun of your note.  My pun was
        inspired by your reply, not targetted at it.
        
        Dan

    Dan-
    
    Your apology isn't necessary...I went back and re-read
    your response, and it was funny...(-;
    At the time, I must have been in a bad mood or something
    to have it seem that way.
    
    HRH
     

    " ******* wedding band"
    
    I'm not flaunting a ******* thing
    
    it doesn't having a ******* thing to do with my sexual orientation,
    just my choice of lifestyle

Annie,

I'm sorry you feel splashed. 

The "*******" could just as easily have prefaced any of the other
things I mentioned rather than the wedding band. I have no problem
with wedding bands. I have no problem with weddings in general
principal.

Here's where the "*******" comes in: I'm really ******* sick of
hearing that g/l/b's are "flaunting" their sexuality. Especially
when I hear that from someone who has the privilege of marrying the
important person in their life. 

Kathy

    I know what you meant and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
    
    I just felt 'splashed' because I love my ring and what it means to me
    -- you didn't hurt my feelings, really
    
    I've been accused of flying 'false colours' because of my ring; I've
    been accused of 'selling out' because of my ring;  I'm just super
    sensitive about my ring.
    
    It's a very easy subject to splash me with ...
    
      Annie

    
    I realize that not everyone accepts the fact that some women love women
    and that some men love men.  I also realize that folks differ over
    whether or not sexual orientation is an appropriate issue to talk about
    at work, but ...
    
    It really hurts me that some people feel so free to say mean and ugly
    things about us.  It hurts me coming from my parents, and it hurts me
    here.
    
    Justine -- the human who wishes she didn't have to spend so much time
    and energy asking people to be nice.  

    amen to that!!
    
    [and I got .100, Dan ....]
    
      Annie

    You can't make people be nice...some will always be ignorant jerks.
    Ignore them.  Jerks opinions don't mean a thing to me.
    
    
    
                                        L.J.

<    It really hurts me that some people feel so free to say mean and ugly
<    things about us.  It hurts me coming from my parents, and it hurts me
<    here.
<    
<    Justine -- the human who wishes she didn't have to spend so much time
<    and energy asking people to be nice.  

And it is because of this that Digital says we don't do this to one another
while at work.

In cleaning out my files this morning, I came across a response of mine
to another noter who said mean things about gays.  I will post it as soon
as I can.

    Carol

    even tho diane and i can't legally marry, we picked out rings and i got
    the phone call last night letting me know that they are ready for us.
    
    we don't flaunt, we celebrate!
    
    sue

    I bet they are *beautiful*, sue!!!!!  
    
    
    E Grace

    Great Sue - Celebrate away!  I'm sure they're lovely.  Wear them
    with pride!  Take care.
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA