Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    i disagree that there's a war going on.
    

Kris:

> And why are the walking wounded still fighting?

  To paraphrase Ram Dass, it's "The Only Dance There Is", but I suspect
  I'm reading your question in a slightly different way than what you
  intended.  Did you mean "why are the walking wounding still trying
  rather than giving up?" or "why aren't the walking wounded making
  peace?"


> So, what's this war about?  

  My perspective is that human social behavior doesn't evolve very
  fast and the social systems that may (!) have served us well in the
  long gone days of hunter/gatherer humans now are nearly useless
  coping with our technology-based society, where individuals have
  far greater capabilities and far fewer implicit limits forced
  upon them.

                                   Atlant

    Perhaps (to borrow a term from Wittgenstein) it is all just a matter of
    different notes communities using their own specific language-games.  I
    try to remind myself that notes isn't the real world.
    
    -- Mike

re: Mike

What!!!!!! But, but, but, what _is_ the real world?

Generally:

I don't come to womannotes to strengthen my appreciation of and caring for men
in general and the men in my life (I don't go to mennotes for that either). I
come to womannotes to feel good about women, draw their/our life, share
experiences. And push boundaries to see how far I can take them myself. I would
like to do anger here, but it isn't safe enough for me.
	Mez

    Lately I, too, have felt that =wn= and mennotes were developing into
    battlefields.  At first I tried to attribute it to the full moon, more
    job stress because of DEC's current business climate, end-of-the-winter
    moodiness, whatever.  But it's been going on too long for any one of
    those (with the possible exception of DEC's current business climate)
    to explain.
    
    Somehow I don't identify with the "walking wounded" at this time,
    though I have in the past.  Maybe that's why I've chosen to be a deserter 
    and seek out other notes conferences in place of these battlegrounds.  I 
    hurt for those who are hurt by the pounding going on here; but many of 
    them keep coming back for more.  I hurt even more for those who are 
    choosing to desert (at least for the time being) rather than continue 
    dodging the pointed projectiles.
    
    In the meantime, when I tentatively step into this area, I seek out the
    less volatile fringes and quickly "next unseen" through the heat of the
    battle.  I also find myself more frequently responding directly to 
    individuals through e-mail on topics I feel deeply about rather than
    exposing myself to the rocket's red glare. 
    
    I guess .2 is right -- "Human social behavior doesn't evolve very
    fast."
    
    Karen           |
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    RE: .0
    
< I read WOMENNOTES and feel the hostility towards men.
    
    *I* read =wn= amd feel the hostility of some men and some women towards
    women who criticize or generalize about men or about some men.  I feel
    much more hostility from the critics than from the noters they
    criticize!

< Were I to compose a composite character from the impressions that are presented
< of the opposite sex in these notes here's what I'd get:
<
< Man:
< Violent, insensitive and abusive to women.  Takes joy in oppressing females
< and children.  Is inarticulate, impolite, and out of touch with his
< feelings which aren't generated by his hormones. Has the upper hand in
< society. 

    I see it quite differently.  I see this "composite character" *much* more
    frequently in the defensive responses to notes than in the original
    notes themselves!  I see your *composite* as being a selective and
    simplistic sampling of some notes here, many of which were written
    by critics-of-original-notes rather than by original-note-ers!  IMO,
    you see a war where none exists -- or, at least, you are not seeing
    the real "enemy." 
    
< History shows that during wars the enemy gets depicted in simplistic
< and negative images in order to dehumanize them.  It makes it easier
< to hate them.  Which makes it easier to kill them.

    In =wn= *sexism -- specifically sexism against women (as opposed to
    sexism directed at men)* -- is much more frequently (and rightly, IMO) 
    depicted as women's enemy.  Men are depicted as being the ones who 
    *benefit* from that sexism and who, consequently, have more trouble
    recognizing it and giving up its benefits.
    
    It may well be that depicting the "enemy" (or, in this case, depicting
    the men who *benefit* from the oppressiveness of sexism) in simplistic 
    images helps us to figure out how best to combat sexism.  We can't 
    counteract the whole d**n system at once; we can only impact parts at a 
    time.  Anything that prevents us from an analysis and a resulting course 
    of action serves to protect the sexist status quo.  One thing that
    prevents such an analysis and course of action is the time we allow
    ourselves to spend being distracted by misperceptions such as the one
    which -- IMHO -- you have presented. 
    
< So, what's this war about?  And why are the walking wounded still fighting?
    
    The war is against sexism, not men.  We are still fighting (*your*
    term) because the oppression still exists.  Not to fight it is to
    accept a second-class mentality, to forego freedom, to be less than
    self-determining human beings.
    
    
    Nancy

    re .1, Joe, maybe you just haven't been in the frontlines. :-)
    
    re .0, I read mennotes and I see some men being hostile to women.
     Then, I read womannotes and I see some men being hostile to women.
    
    Lorna
    

    War brings war and hostility breds hostility.  Have any of
    the"contendants" thought to give KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION,
    UNDERSTANDING, instead?  Can you imagine what it would give back?
    (It's just a thought... worth thinking about!)

    Re .8, yeah, well, I guess you're right.  I'm sure it's always the
    woman's fault when a man doesn't treat her right.  I'm sure men
    always have good excuses for however they treat women.
    
    Personally, I'm a rotten bitch and it has never occurred to me to
    treat any man with "kindness, consideration, understanding."  You
    can just ask my ex-husband or any guy I've dated or any of my male
    friends.  I, for one, deserve every bit of verbal or emotional abuse
    I've ever gotten from a man.  I guess I just haven't been bitchy
    enough to get physically abused yet.  And, I've always tried so
    hard to nice, just like my mother taught me.  But, so far I've only
    been nice enough to keep from getting hit.
    
    Lorna
    

RE: Lorna
    
>    re .0, I read mennotes and I see some men being hostile to women.
>     Then, I read womannotes and I see some men being hostile to women.
 
What do you see in the "women toward men" direction?

   
    

    
    re:.7
    i quite agree with your observations of where hostility is occurring,
    by who, to whom (at least here in =wn3=). my only point is that the word 
    'war' implies to me *mutual* hostilities. a more accurate metaphor for 
    what you've described might be 'pogrom'.
    
    or should that be 'by whom'?
    

    in re kath
    
    in general I see 
    
    1. women reacting strongly to things men have said that they've
       been upset by
    2. women talking about bad experiences in their lives..
    
    my personal take is that the anger against women in mennotes is
    a lot stronger than the anger against men in womannotes.
    
    bj

    in re .8
    
    In general I think one would find a great deal of kindess and
    consideration and understanding in =wn=..
    
    but where individual women have pain, we've allowed them a place
    to express that pain..
    
    when you are suffering do you also have the time to express
    those traits against those who are responsible for your suffering..
    
    the traits you describe have too often been assigned to women 
    as something they had to be ....it can be necessary to reject
    old role models in order to grow at times...
    
    I my self probably ooze those traits to a point that some people
    don't like me.
    
    but I can also understand how a person in pain needs to deal with
    the pain before they can begin to heal.
    
    Bonnie

           I have seen the expressions of frustration and anger go both ways
    in this, other conferences, and society in general; for quite a while.
    As a male, it hurts me to have anger directed at me "in general",
    but I understand and accept it. I bleed with my sisters and I think 
    their anger is totally justified. The world society is accelerating in
    the growth period it's going through, and given the inevitable nature
    of the changes, the only course of action is to help. But; define help.
        I think as we work with each other to repair the damages of our
    inherited roles we have to deligently remind ourselves that we are
    NOT enemies. Women and Men are the only team we have to correct the 
    problem. There's no value in self-righteously pointing out the failures
    in each others inherited roles. 
        
        As far as these notes files go, of course they are used to ground 
    people's anger. I think that's a very important role they play, but,
    it's not the only role. Given that Women and Men have so few VIABLE
    role-model/mentors, wouldn't it make more sense to fill that void here? 
         
        In their essence males and females will always be a perfect
    balance of attraction and repulsion. Like a binary star, too much
    attraction = destruction. Too much repulsion = loss of orbit.  
    "can't live with 'um, can't live without 'um."
    
                                                      M... 
                                                              

    <--(.14)
    
    Well said.

    in re .14

    Nice note..

    and I think that there are women and men who note in this file
    (my comods included in that group) who do what is in their
    personal power to set positive role models.

    Bonnie

    Re:7 Now there is a real reply to the base question... Lorna, do you
    really fell  that all males are out to get females? 
    
    REK

    
    	RE: .17  REK
    
    	How do you translate Lorna's "some men being hostile to women" to
    	be "all males are out to get females"??
    

    Re: JWhite, when was the last time you had a real talk with a male..
    Re:14 Very good reply.. Mennotes... I REFUSE to note in there.. I do
    not feel that the moderators in there are very good or fair.. Reminds
    me of "Follow what everyone else is saying or we will "SET HIDDEN" your
    notes. Human_relations follows a close second...
    
    REK
    
    a little note added... Its time for us to change the world and not let
    the world tell us what is to be expected....

>    re .1, Joe, maybe you just haven't been in the frontlines. :-)
>   
>   re .0, I read mennotes and I see some men being hostile to women.
>   Then, I read womannotes and I see some men being hostile to women.
> 
>    Lorna
  
    
    Right here Suz....
    
    REK    

    
    	RE: .19  REK
    
    	> Re: JWhite, when was the last time you had a real talk with a male..
    
    	Is there some reason why Joe's own views as a male are unacceptable
    	to you?
    

    please remember the guidelines in note 1.*
    
    Bonnie J
    comod

    
    	RE: .20  REK
    
    	> Right here Suz....
    
    	Where?  You showed me two statements about how Lorna sees
    	"some men being hostile to women" in two different places.
    
    	How does this translate to "ALL MEN are out to get women"?
    
    	Do you really think that if a person says "some men are seen 
    	doing x" in one place, and "some men are seen doing x" in 
    	another place, then what the person is really saying is that 
    	ALL MEN on our entire planet must necessarily be doing Y ?
    
    	Why would you make such an assumption?
    

    re .17, REK, no I don't think all men are out "to get" all women.
    
    re .10, Kath, I see more hurt (as in mental suffering, anguish)
    than anger in the replies of most women who have anything negative 
    to say about men.
    
    Lorna
    

recursion: see recursion.
	Mez

    Let us all be careful to abide by the guidelines set in 1.7 and 1.15
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod