Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Perhaps we should start a "nit note"?  :-)

My nit:
(Sandy 94.80)
>    hair completely.  Most strive to be as neotenic as an adult can get.
>    Brooke Shields in Pretty Baby, or Lolita or any other sexualized little
>    girls are displaying the exact same thing from the other direction.

You just happened to pick on of my *favorite* books, Lolita. I understand
what you are saying, but Lolita ("light of my life, fire of my loins...the
tongue takes a trip down the palate to tap, on three, on the teeth.  Lo.
Lee. Ta.") wasn't sexualized.  The author of the book did nothing to make
her appear more a woman, and in fact, the protagonist was in particular
attracted to little girls who were *not* adult-like - flatchested, straight-
hipped, and with a child's mannerisms.  (He called them nymphettes.) When
Humbert first meets Lolita, and falls in love with her, he describes just
how non-adult she is.  She has a dirty face, one sock pulled up and one
pushed down.  She eats lollipops and ice-cream.  She bounces around like
children do, and has the same brash, honest manner.  She thinks boys are
dumb and likes riding bicycles.  She is truly the epitome of a 12-year old.

Basically, Lolita is *not* held up as any standard of attractiveness to the
average male, which is what makes Humbert Humbert's attraction so bizarre.

D!

    
    umm, i was kind of under the impression that the point was to explore
    exactly how tenuous the difference between humbert and a 'normal' man
    was.
    

re: -1,

Indeed, but the point wasn't that it was "normal" for a man to want a
12 year old, but that it didn't take much to make a "normal" man do
something that abnormal.  I never got the feeling that they were 
suggesting that Lolita was, should be, or could be attractive to the
average man.  In fact, I believe that they made it in particular
abnormal, something people *couldn't* relate to, and then presented
a character people *could* relate to, to demonstrate that someone
doesn't have to be a wacked out, drooling maniac to do/feel something
way out of the norm.

I read Lolita twice, once for a course called, ironically, "Humor in
American Literature".  It never occured to me to think of Lolita as
being a humorous book, but reading it with that in mind, I did, indeed,
get a lot more out of it.  Perhaps "Irony in American Lit" would be
been a better title.

D!

    
    sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. i really believe
    that nabokov *is* suggesting that in some way our society *does* say
    that it is 'normal' for an adult man to desire a prepubescent girl.
    to my reading that is the point and the beauty of the irony.
     

    Awwright, an issue I can REALLY get my teeth into!  (: >,)
    
    All of the "objective" evidence in the book is that Lolita is a normal
    child who is being abused by a pervert.  Even at that time, there were
    some statistics available (if you dug for them) and I remember reading
    that Nabokov was shocked by how common such abuse was; in that sense,
    Humbert H. is not so unusual, but I don't think that comes across
    as a strong point in the novel.
    
    The book is Humbert's, though, and one of his goals is to convince the
    reader that he was in the grip of hopeless romantic passion.  He
    therefore expends a good deal of energy making it seem "understandable"
    in emotional terms.  I think this is the source of the confusion.  
    
    It's not that a "normal man" is so close to being Humbert, but that
    Humbert considers himself so close to the "normal man", his hypocrite
    reader and brother.  It's the same sort of technique used by his
    beloved decadent poets - juxtapose loaded emotional terms with
    unsettling subject matter and you refresh the tired words of passion
    while (in the way of personal gain) inviting a certain amount of
    complicity and obtaining a certain amount of revenge against the
    "normal people" who've oppressed you. 
    
    The whole thing gets even messier if you see Kubrick's movie
    adaptation.  The world wasn't quite ready for a witty mindgame
    involving such horrific scenes, so Lolita had to be played (very well,
    BTW) by a robustly maturelooking Sue Lyon instead of an actress who
    would emphasize the "otherness", the distinctly nonsexual aspect, that
    attracted Humbert in the book.  In place of the poetic rants, the claim
    to normality is staked by a film style which bears many resemblances to
    the Jack Lemmon / Tony Curtis / Tom Ewell sex farces of the '50s, with
    Lolita in the Marilyn-Monroe-style role.
    
    Now in feminist criticism, the terms in which Humbert coaches his plea
    for sympathy may have a great deal to say about "normal men", but I
    seriously doubt that Nabokov would've anticipated such a reading. 
    
    Ray

Regarding the Saturday Night Live news clip:

 Since when does SNL care about the feeling of any segment of society?
 Wow! It's been years since I watched!  I guess I'm too old now to even
 want to stay up that late on Saturday.  ouch that hurt!

Out of curiosity:

 Where did the phrase "Chewing glass" come from?  I read it for the first time
 here only days ago.  How would you define it?  I think I have an idea
 (ready to jump - so to speak) but you can help me with the definition.

I'm sorry if a note has already been started on this subject, I 
tried doing a dir/title but couldn't find anything.  

I'm not sure if anyones familiar with Andrew Dice Clay, but he is a 
comedian (I wouldn't call him that but some people do.) whos act 
consists of degrading everyone, especially woman.  Quite a while 
ago I watched a tape of him doing stand-up and everyone in the 
room was roaring and everyone in the audience was also.  I just 
sat there horrified that these people found humor in what this 
man was saying...!

Well I heard on the news last night that he is to be guest host 
on Saturday Night Live this weekend and Nora Dunn a comedienne on 
the show has refused to appear if he was.  This morning I heard
that Sinead O'Connor was also to appear and she has also refused 
saying "How can I sing my songs about women after this man gives 
his monologue."

His rebuttal on Nora last night was "Nora Dunn is a silly *girl*, 
if she knew me in person she would know I'm a nice guy."  
Unbelieveable this man is a menace to society, how could a *nice 
guy* say those things or even think them!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

I would love to find out where to call or write to protest this
man appearing!

I say THREE CHEERS to Nora Dunn and Sinead O'Connor!!

(whew, that felt good!)

Corine

Regarding the Saturday Night Live news clip:

 Since when does SNL care about the feeling of any segment of society?
 Wow! It's been years since I watched!  I guess I'm too old now to even
 want to stay up that late on Saturday.  ouch that hurt!


***
Incidently, I do not know the person(s) of whom you speak, nor do I condone
his humor.  This is a comment on SNL.  Long ago, when I watched, I can
remember find offensive humor, too.
***

      <<< Note 112.7 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

Regarding the Saturday Night Live news clip:

 Since when does SNL care about the feeling of any segment of society?
 Wow! It's been years since I watched!  I guess I'm too old now to even
 want to stay up that late on Saturday.  ouch that hurt!
    
    ====================================================
    
    It isn't so much SNL, because they are not backing off having
    'Dice' as the guest host, but individuals who have decided 
    that they don't want to appear on the same show as him.
    
    From what I have heard, the management is not going to do
    anything about the regular, no punishment or anything.  I
    haven't heard what their views about Sinead are yet.
    

Oh, I see.  A regular refuses to show because of the guest.

More power to her.  Got to act on your beliefs.

Tidbit on Belushi (how's that for dating me?):

  Someone told me that someone left a sign over his grave marker:

   "You could have given us more laughs, but Noooo!"

    in re chewing glass..
    
    it is a semi humorous reference to radical feminists..
    
    bj

    also in re chewing glass, to me it appears as an attempt to be
    derogatory towards radical feminists, but the term has been co-opted
    and proudly adopted by same, who empower themselves by openly refusing
    to accept the intended derogation.
    
    DougO

    This is a bit off the topic, but many many moons ago when I was a brat
    child of 17 I worked with Margot Adler, author of Drawing Down the
    Moon.
    
    I pretty much idolized her but was also sorta stunned by her.  I mean,
    in 1969 radical feminists were not exactly common. Every time I'd start
    to get comfy with her, whammo!  Something new would shake me up and get
    me thinking.
    
    Anyway, one day I was working away and Margot came in like a hurricane
    that could destroy the entire Carribean.  She was all gale force
    warnings and crackling lightning.  I could not believe it.  What the
    heck had happened?  Had she been proposition by Hugh Hefner?
    
    She throws off her sweater, hurls it across the office, stands there in
    her boots and denim overalls and exclaimes loudly,
    "I've got my period and I'm in a really sh*tty mood so stay outta my
    way!"
    
    Well, all the guys back off *fast* and scuttle away and I stand there in
    stunned amazement that anyone would say such a thing.  Let alone 
    publically and loudly.  I think it's called a click.
    
    Sometimes the moon wins.
    
         ;^)    Margaret

I don't think the term glass-chewing was originally used for feminists,
radical or otherwise.  The term was used occasionally during my childhood.
It was meant to imply: very tough, very macho.  You know, then men who
wear leather jackets and chains, rip the heads off puppies with their
bare hands, and chew glass.  The implication was that chewing glass was
some sort of exercise to prove your machoness.  I don't think anyone
actually did it.

So glass-chewing as applied to feminists would imply two things - one
that they are tough and not to mess with them, they take no shit from
no one, and two, that they are butch/masculine/macho, wear plaid shirts
and would *never* shave.  So it was deragatory in two ways.

D! who has a taste for Waterford crystal.... ;-) ;-)

Thank you D!  That clarifies it much better.  Clear as -ahem- crystal.

I just couldn't imagine someone grinding their teeth on shards of glass.
I knew it had to mean tough.  I was curious as to its origin.

Mark

I once saw a woman at a bar look menacingly at a female friend of mine,
pick up a champagne glass, and take a bite out of it.  We didn't stick
around to see whether she actually chewed it or not, though ...

Carla

    re .11
    

    Obscene phone calls. I got one last Saturday from a teenage girl. At
    *least I hope she was just a teenager. I tried to stop her and yes, I
    *have tried to stop the boys who called in the past. I got blasted with
    *obscenities and sensed total anger in voice when I was just trying to
    *explain the dangers of such practice. Later someone, probably the same
    *person, called and just hit the number buttons in my ear. This was
    *mildly astonishing. THe boys would usually just hang up and never call
    *again after I tried a calm, rational explanation on the evils of prank
    *calling.
    
    Did you get her phone number?  Most of them *charge* for talking
    to you like that 8^).
    
    fred();

    Hee, hee.  I think I know how glass-chewing started.
    
    In Hollywood, they made a lot of Westerns.  With lots of fighting.
    Including lots of barroom brawls.  Where guys smashed each other
    over the head with liquor bottles.
    
    Glass is not so brittle that you can hit stuntmen over the head with
    real bottles, and have them around to retake the scene immediately.
    So they made prop bottles, which shattered most satisfactorily.  And
    they made them out of sugar.  Between takes, there'd be these tough
    guys lounging around, chomping down on the broken `bottles'.
    
    							Ann B.
    
    P.S.  They changed over to something non-edible in the fifties.
    Some of the older stuntmen weren't informed of the change until
    one mouthful too late....  Unpleasant, but not fatal.

    I don't want to tie up the HOT BUTTON Note with replies to replies so
    I'll post them here. Mods, if this is inappropriate, please move it
    back.
    
    re 7.12 I can't just hang up. Even sicko perverts need their jollies
    :-) Just kidding. I have tried this in the past and the person has kept
    calling. A calm, reasoned response on the evils of prank calling has
    worked for me before. I seem to put on my "I'm your father and this is
    what's right tone". Thank goodness I don't have to use to often with my
    kids. I don't yell. I just get a real serious tone to my voice.
    
    re 7.13 I don't think she was charging. :-) Also, it's not my phone.
    It's my mother's and she gets calls all day long and wouldn't want it
    left off the hook. Luckily the calls are so far apart and this one was
    a first, that I usually don't have to worry about them. I think this
    one set me off because I was in a hurry to get out for awhile.
    
                                    Phil

    blowing a really loud whistle into the phone if they call again can be
    really effective in really annoying them enough so they don't WANT to
    call back.
    
    -Jody
    

    RE: blowing a whistle
    
    I don't think that will work.  Telephones are limited in how much noise
    they can transmit.  In other words, there is an upper and lower limit
    in terms of dB and frequency.  This means that blowing the whistle will
    hurt YOUR ears but not theirs.
    
    Hanging up works.  I rather like asking the caller to repeat something
    over and over as I am "hard of hearing."  After the fourth repetition
    of an obscene phrase (actually rather a nice one in a better context
    :^) the caller realizes how weird it is and hangs up.  Depending on my
    mood, I've also listened for a while and then said in my most baby
    voice. "Hold on, I'll get my Mommy."   They hang up.

    re:  obscene phone calls
    
    - Put the phone down, walk away for a minute or two, and then
      hang up.  It's no "fun" to the caller if s/he doesn't have an
      audience.  Most obscene callers are looking for the shock value.
    
    - In one of the earlier files, one person told the caller that
      she was busy with housework and couldn't chat, then hung up
    
    - If the calls persist, answer, but don't say anything. This is
      *not* the reaction the caller is hoping for!  (I suppose a loud yawn
      would accomplish the same thing.)
    
    - re whistles.  It may also make an angry caller even angrier
    
    - If all else fails, call the phone company.
    
    It's hard to remember all this at 4AM!

Whistles can be used against *you*, too.  If you think they might know your
number, it might not be a good idea.

       Carol

    
    	One thing that has worked for me is to laugh at the obscene phone
    	caller.  Once, I thought the caller was someone I knew, so I took
    	the call as a joke and laughed so hard that my son got on the
    	extension to see what was so funny.
    
    	Between laughs, I told my son what was going on, then *he* started
    	laughing as loud as I was.
    
    	The caller got discouraged and hung up.
    
    	Another time, I started asking the caller questions in a very
    	authoritative voice:  "HOW DID YOU GET THIS NUMBER???"  (He'd
    	already called two or three times by then, but hung up quickly
    	and never called back after I tried to interrogate him.)  ;^)

    
/            <<< Note 34.6 by CONURE::AMARTIN "MARRS needs women" >>>
/
/    The whole world does NOT go ga ga over the word GIRL.
/    I never heard of ANYONE until I came to DEC, spacifically, Womennotes.
/   
    I know several people who not only prefer to be called a woman,
    but would either make a face or would simply ignore you if you
    were to call them a 'girl'.
    
    I met them before I was in Digital, or even heard of =wn=.
    Since then (since I met them), I myself try to use 'woman' over
    'girl', unless I am talking about a person who is of young age.
    
    True, I am not the whole world, but I am a part of it, and I
    am trying to influence other parts of it to talk in clearer
    terms so that I can easily understand what is said, and what
    is meant.
     
/    Sexism is alive and living in PEOPLE!  thats the problem.  people
/    automatically assume the worst about a person solely based upon their
/    gender.    
    
    Automatically assume the worst about a bumper sticker asking for
    a girl which also states that no previous experience required?
    
    Hey!  You have a point there!  The owner of the car (male or female,
    who knows?) may actually have been looking for somebody as a friend,
    and was willing to pay for a sex change operation should the applicant
    be a male.  I don't know why I jumped to the conclusion that the
    bumper sticker was simply a pick up line aimed at bimbos.
    
/    sorry, its a nit I have.
    
    The woman/girl thing is a personal nit of my own...
    

    in re obscene phone calls.
    
    I once received such a call and proceeded to tell the person
    in my most pitying tone of voice that there are places where
    they could get counceling for this problem and asked them if
    they'd like me to give them some phone numbers to call for help.
    
    they hung up.
    
    in other parts of the �US of A you can now get a box that
    attaches �to your phone that displays the number of the person
    calling. apparently the phone company has an ad out promoting these
    in Virginia (I think) that slants it towards dealing with an
    obscene call. the demand for the devices apparently far out strips
    the supply in areas where they are offered.
    
    bj

    About obscene phone calls -- I think I read this suggestion in V2 and
    I've used it a couple of times (always makes me laugh afterward).
    
    If you get a repeat caller, let them talk for about 15-30 seconds, then
    press a number on your phone (makes a -beep- sound).  Say in a hushed
    tone, "Operator, this is the call I wanted you to trace."
    
    Bingo.  They hang up immediately!
    
    Pam

    
    	RE: .28  Mike Z.
    
    	Who cares if Dice becomes more famous over this?  (I can name
    	quite a few people who have become famous for doing things that
    	most people abhor.)
    
    	The point is that the issue of the way women, minorities and
    	gays are sometimes treated in our culture is being given 
    	NATIONAL ATTENTION!!
    
    	While there are undoubtedly some in our society who will grasp
    	onto Dice as their personal hero for what he says, I think that
    	having a famous person (who got that way by being sexist/racist/
    	homophobic) will make a lot MORE people realize how debasing his
    	stuff is to human beings.
    
    	Hooray for Dunn & O'Connor!!
    

�    <<< Note 112.30 by MILKWY::ZARLENGA "we prefer `the vertical smile'" >>>
�
�	Some people just have a more tolerant sense of humor, while
�    others are more uptight about such matters.
    
    And some people are ONLY tolerant of racist or sexist humor, and some
    people get awfully uptight when straight white men are targets. 
    
    Ray

IMHO,

Andrew Dice Clay is a loser.  End of discussion.

Lisa

RE: -1

I couldn't agree more. And while we're on the topic of misogynistic
"comendians", add Sam Kennison.

Linda 

    My view of the Dice Man is that he is making fun of the character
    type that he plays more than anything else.  By drawing attention to
    and exposing that characer type he is actually helping women more than
    hurting them. I think "the Fonz" was a *much* greater glorification of 
    that type of male type (and the women who go gaga over them) than 
    the Dice.
    fred();

    It's striking how the group which considers Clay a satirist doesn't
    seem to include any of the people his "caricature" is attacking...
    
    Some of my favorite humor (like some of my other favorite art) might be
    called sexist or racist.  I like to mix in castrating-feminist, 
    dis-whitey and eat-the-rich humor too - all things in moderation, after
    all - but a lot of stuff that seems funny to me assumes a white male
    point of view.  So I'm no angel, but...
    
    Andrew Clay doesn't seem like a comedian to me; he's more like a
    preacher or politician (or "loser", if you prefer (: >,).  He doesn't
    do much in the way of jokes or characterization.  Instead he relies on
    supposed common feelings of hatred and contempt, playing 'em up and
    attacking those with the temerity to claim not to share them.  He and
    his imitators seem to be into siccing their audiences on those
    disagreeable victims as well.  (I guess that's where the "demagogue"
    tag that I've heard hung on him comes from.)
    
    He scares me just about as much as any other preacher or politician,
    and I think he has as much business being given "comedy show" time as
    any other preacher or politician who refuses to be disagreed with.
    
    Ray

if 'married' and 'alone' were the only two choices given, I would think that
90% choosing 'married' might even be a tad on the low side.

I realise that there are people who wish to live a life of solitude, but 10%
of the female population seems a bit high.

  Ann

    Just had to add,,,,
    
    On of Dice's jokes is ;  A father has a right to rape his daughter,
    after all, he pays for her college tuition.
    
    Who should laugh at that??  All the daughers in the world, or just
    the ones that have been raped by their fathers??
    
    Corine

    
    RE: .39
    
    I have as good a sense of humor as anyone, but being the father of two
    beautiful daughters, I don't see *anything* funny about that so called
    joke. It's pretty sick...
    
    wes
    

Re: 40

I have Three Dsughters.  And It doesn't matter whether i've seen yours,
mine are more beautiful.  :-)

Isn't this like "dead-baby" jokes?  That is, so absurd?  I did not find it
funny.

MM

    
.30>	I don't regard a comedy routine as art imitating life
    
    hhmmmm........
    
    i beg to differ here.  (gawd, i hate grovelling)
    
    i think that most comedy routines find inspiration through
    life, and either allow the audience to see a normal situation
    through a new angle, or take a normal situation to an extreme.
    
    so....the way that i see it, comedy is an artform that imitates
    life.
    
.34>	My view of the Dice Man is that he is making fun of the character
.34>	type that he plays more than anything else.  By drawing attention
.34>	to and exposing that character type he is actually helping
.34>	women more than hurting them.
    
    another thing that i don't agree with.  i feel (notice key word
    there, i'm not stating a fact) that by making people laugh at
    such a routine, dice is making people more comfortable with the
    idea of such people.  somebody who lives like that can now point
    to a role model and say "Hey, can't you take a joke?"
    
    another thing is that people who normally would not act in such
    a manner might do it now for laughs.  it would be better to not
    act that way at all.
    
    deep thought alert.....
    
    are people laughing WITH clay, or AT him?
    
    

    RE: .42
    
    The 6:00 news had an interview last week with Dunn and Clay, she
    quoted him as saying that, he didn't deny it.
    
    
    Corine

    re: .44 (Mike Z.)
    
    Are you saying that what ADC does is to portray some kind of
    "normal" man taken to an extreme?
    
    Steve

    re: .47 (Mike Z.)
    
    � . . .his character is an exaggeration of a stereotypical macho male.

    Thanks for the clarification, Mike.  I guess we just disagree on
    this one because from where I sit, Clay looks far more sterotypical
    than exaggerated.  I've met far too many guys who 1) fit the image
    Clay presents to a "T" and 2) see Clay's personna as something to
    emulate and laugh with (vs. laugh at).  I know men who's response
    to Clay is laughter and "F**kin' hey!  Right on, man!  That's tellin'
    the bitch!"  
    
    One key reason we laughed *at* Archie Bunker was that he was set off
    in the show by other people who constantly exposed his bigottry.
    Archie was, therefore, not someone whom many men wanted to emulate.
    Not so with Clay.  I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that
    Clay is portraying anyone other than himself.  Any number of guys 
    think he's "cool" and makes a great role model.  My personal suspicion
    is that Clay is entirely aware of this and likes it.
    
    Steve

    
    	RE: .48
    	Steve, all I can say is you must really know some sleezbag
    	guys out there if they think Clay (his act) is a role model
    	for men.
    
    	G_B
    
    	BTW - I thin he tries his hand at humor much the same as
    	Richard Pryor, Redd Foxx, and many other comics. They all
    	poke fun at either their own group or what the stereotypes
    	of a group are.

    re: .49 (George)
    
    � Steve, all I can say is you must really know some sleezbag
    � guys out there if they think Clay (his act) is a role model
    
    Perhaps so, George, although I wouldn't necessarily put that
    label on them (particularly in person to the larger ones).  I've
    spent a fair portion of my life in the company of, for lack of
    a better term, "blue collar" or "macho" males.  Some experiences
    I'm drawing on include my time in the military, countless gigs
    in uncounted bars, and, yes, even some experiences right here
    in Digital (e.g. worked in and around manufacturing stockrooms
    and shipping docks; played in a softball league for a while).
    For that matter, I recall more than one all-male social gathering
    of white collar types during which the contempt for women was
    both virulent and loudly vocal.
    
    This isn't to say that all men I've met through these experiences
    have expressed admiration for the attitudes which Clay displays.
    It is, however, to say that in my experience, such individuals 
    are far from a "rare breed".
    
    Steve

    
    re: last few...
    
    yeah, those guys do exist.  Hopefully they are becoming extinct,
    but its not a fast exit!
    
    Just heard on the news this morning that the National Secretary's
    Association (or some such) held its annual meeting and 'honored' the
    worst bosses.  Two mentioned were:
    
    Boss says to secretary...get me my coffee...you squaw, me chief!
    
    Boss requests secretary, on her evenings out, to scan the bars and
    see if there are any 'good looking chicks' ...if so, beep him so he
    can come and make his play.
    
    Sounds like Dice has known some of these guys.!
    
    deb
    

    
    	RE: .50 & .51
    
    	Steve & Deb,
    
    	I never said they didn't exist, I do know of a few like that, but
    	very, very few. Most men I know would see that type of attitude
    	as cavemanish. And before you say it, I'm not a white collar type,
    	in fact spent many years working in woodshops, which I wouldn't
    	describe as highly intellectual. Also spent a few years around a
    	boxing gym, which was the worse in attitude about women and still
    	didn't see it to the extent Clay uses in his routine. Wasn't in
    	this version of =WN=, or maybe V2 where the female comic that
    	doesn't allow men talked about? I didn't hear a single complaint
    	about her off color humor towards men. I've never seen her, but
    	from the few reports of her I did manage to read, she isn't too
    	kind of men. One of the TV segments said she got down-right hostile
    	twoards men suggesting things like all men should be kept like lab
    	rats only to be used to breed more women children. Why is this seen
    	as Acceptable humor yet Clay isn't?
    
    	G_B

re: .52

>    	Most men I know would see that type of attitude
>    	as cavemanish. 

    Most men I know would regard that type of _attitude_ as cavemannish
    too, but sometimes okay as a joke.  Unfortunately, there are a fair
    number of men around who *do* have that type of attitude, or (if you
    prefer) whose jokes are consistently misunderstood or unappreciated.

    So for most women I know, such jokes hit a little too close to the
    mark.  Sometimes jokes told "at women's expense" can be funny, sometimes
    not.  I find that the more I think about what's being said, the less
    funny it is.

>    	One of the TV segments said she got down-right hostile
>    	twoards men suggesting things like all men should be kept like lab
>    	rats only to be used to breed more women children.  Why is this seen
    	as Acceptable humor yet Clay isn't?
    
    You know, that joke is funny.  Until I think about what's really being
    said, and then I think it stinks.  The main reason I like it initially
    - and also the reason I think many women would see it as 'acceptable'
    humor - is that 'barefoot and pregnant' line I've heard so much, and
    all those stories about how girl babies are often killed or aborted
    because the parents wanted a boy.  It's not pretty, but the joke brings
    out vengeful feelings first, reason only later.

    Women are human too.  While I know of very, very few who actually want
    real-world revenge for sexism in society, that doesn't mean that
    vengeful humor can't be sweet (even if it often does leave a sickening
    aftertaste).  Clay jokes tend to be closer to society's reality, and
    thus are more graphic and 'realer' to the imagination; harder to just
    "laugh off".

    Is that clearer?

	Sharon

    This morning's  Boston  Globe  had a column by Ellen Goodman about
    Dice.  As usual, I find her worth reading.

--David

    RE: Obscene phone calls.
    
    I read of a case where an obscene phone caller sued the woman he called
    because he suffered ear damage when she blew a whistle into the phone! 
    And the scumbag won!
    
    I have been plagued by obscene phone calls for years.  We've even had
    "wrong numbers" that turned into obscene phone calls.  Hanging up often
    just eggs them on!  Repeat phone calls at 1:30 AM are no picnic.
    
    I did use a portable alarm on one, and he never called back.  Another
    time, my dad was visiting, and I just handed him the phone.  That
    caller didn't call back.
    
    After my aunt died, my uncle received a phone call from a woman.  She
    went into great detail of the obscene things she would do to him, and
    he replied,  "No thanks.  I just got through playing with myself."  To
    which she replied, "You're disgusting!!"  How's that for a double
    standard?!
    
    Susan

    re: obscene phone calls
    
    I have been getting a few lately because I recently advertised for a
    flatmate.  I found most of them amusing more than anything although the
    first was so disturbing I reported it to the police.  I've found if you
    stay calm listen for a while and, if you can think of one, make a smart
    remark it really puts them off.  Isalso started asking questions like
    "what's your name?", "Where do you live?", that really freaked them
    out.  I usually end by saying matter-of-factly, no thanks I'm not
    interested and hang up.  Whatever you do don't let them know you're
    upset.
    
    		Holly
    
    PS. When they call at 5am in the mornign though it's a bit much. 
    Especially if you've been reading Stephen King's "It"!!

.54  Delightful!  Your uncle is a riot!

I can't wait for my next obscene phone call!  (just kidding... don't 
make any!)  :-)

Incidently, I treat computer calls as obscene and make inane
noises when they ask for my personal information.

	RE: .58 For those who don't have a copy of that calendar, yestedays
	cartoon shows a dog outside his dog house reading a book on 1001
	ways to skin a cat. At the same time a cat in a tree is reading a
	book called "Why all Dogs Should be Euthanized"


			Alfred

Now I have to tell my weird obscene phone call story...

A few years ago I got an obscene call at home, pretty typical, the guy started
listing off all the things he wanted to do to me, with quite a few "Oh baby"'s
and panting/grunting thrown in. I listened for a little while, normally I
tease obscene callers, but I didn't have time so I hung up on him. He didn't
call back.

A few weeks later it was First Night (New Year's Eve) and some friends and I
were wandering around Boston about 11 at night.  We were passing by Jordan
Marsh at Downtown Crossing when the payphone in front started ringing. I
answered it - and it was the same guy!  He went through the same list as
before, same way, and I said "Hey, you said that the last time you called me!"
He said "Oh, did we talk before?" and I said "Yes about three weeks ago."
He says "Well what did you say?"  I said "Well I hung up on you."  So he
started in again about *more* things he wanted to do to me, so I said "Alright,
when?"  He says "What?"  I said "Meet me in front of Jordan Marsh at 
12:30".  He starts to go on abut what he wants to do to me and I say "Hey
man, I don't wanna *talk* about it!"  And I heard the guy get all panicky and
hang up.

My friends and I (about 15 of us, no danger) wandered past there on our way
back from the fireworks at 12:30 - no guy.  :-)

D!

    For the benefit of those who might not know, I would like to explain
    what fajitus interruptus is.  This is the frustrating experience of
    being in the middle of relishing a chicken fajita, only to be called
    away before you have finished it.
    
    Fortunately, I have not experienced this myself, but I have eaten a
    chicken fajita with a friend who was called away during the meal.  I
    can imagine, though, how terrible fajitus interruptus would be.
    
    -- Mike

    -- Mike
    
    To what good fortune to we owe this marvelous bit of information?
    
    Bonnie

But, most of the questions to test for turtle-hood don't move to typed form
very well.
	Mez

    Bonnie, usually Mike's deliberately absurd notes appear to come in 
    from left field, but at least we're all playing the same game; that 
    is, he's often obscurely topically relevant.  But I think fajitas
    interruptus shows that he took a pogo stick instead of a baseball out
    to left field with him, this time. ;-).
    
    DougO

    DougO
    
    I'm with you :-)!
    
    Bonnie

    I'd guess his fajitus interruptus is explaining the personal_name he
    now has, a new variation on "note while you lambada" and "lambada while
    you eat fajitas".  
    
    Personally, I think nachos interruptus is worse.  You leave the table
    for even a few minutes, and the cheese kind of gets more solid, and
    where the sauce is directly contacting the chips they get soggy, and
    the whole thing kind of gets less interesting and cold, and you have to
    eat it with a fork because the cheese just doesn't string out right
    between the chip you're lifting to your mouth and the other chips
    sitting on the plate....
    
    I'm getting hungry now......
    
    -Jody

    -Jody
    
    even worse in my house nachos or fajitus interruptus would leave
    nothing to return to but several very satisfied cats.
    
    Bonnie

    Please, Jody, you've just described my worse nightmare.
    
    Have a heart

    just a minor distraction......
    
    i noticed no musical quotes topic, and don't really think this would
    be too appropriate under "Poetry About Women", but topic 127.* has
    reminded me of a Smiths tune......
    
    	Some girls are bigger than others
    	Some girls are bigger than others
    	Some girls mothers are bigger than other girls mothers...
    

    Re: The Language Topic...
    
    It's rather interesting to note how some areas of the country have
    different ways of saying things.  Here are a few Utahisms:
    
    Rather than saying, "I've got to babysit," Utahns say, "I'm tending."
    The term "What a hoot!" is also very popular as well as "For neat!"
    I believe a number of these terms may be due to innate "cleanliness
    in language" practiced by the state's prevailing religious community,
    but it is highly entertaining to watch the expression on the faces
    of non-Utahns when they hear these terms for the first time.
    
    Barb 

    
    This is a comment on Alfred's note in the hot buttons topic on how he
    hates to spell straight "strate".  I don't really like it either, on
    general principle (that principle being "words should be spelled
    correctly") but I guess I put it in the category of things like 
    using "black" instead of "colored" or "Negro" and Native American
    instead of Indian.  I erceive the request for the new term (or
    alternate speeling in this case) to come from an oppressed group and I
    feel that (since I am an member, in each of these three cases, of the
    dominant group) their requests should be honored, to show respect (or
    something like that).
    
    CQ 

        re .71
        
>>		  but I guess I put it in the category of things like 
>>    using "black" instead of "colored" or "Negro" and Native American
>>    instead of Indian.
        
        Those are groups asking that a particular word be used to
        describe themselves, not asking that a particular word be
        used to describe others.  I would expect to see in the
        same category as your other examples, using "straight"
        because that is what straights (at least one) have asked
        to be called.
        
        Dan

    
    i can see the issue surrounding using the original spelling of
    "straight" when speaking of heterosexual orientation. due to it's
    definition, the term implies the opposite would be "crooked".
    
    i really don't understand the offensiveness of spelling it strate, but
    because i'm normally not in the mood to offend folks when offering a
    written opinion, i usually opt for writing out heterosexual.
    
    ~robin

    
    Don't mind me, I'm trying to sort out what seems to be a tendency for
    too much people-pleasing.
    
    "Nevermind!"
    
    CQ

    re:last couple;
    
    "Heterosexual" is a fine word to me. The misspelling of straight always
    seemed like a dig to me for some reason.
    
    Kate 

    CQ

    it's okay, :-)  thanks for your input..

    I personally think that if heterosexual people dislike the
    term 'strate' that they should be allowed the same grace
    as other people who object to a particular term to describe
    them.

    Even if 'straight' can mean the opposite of crooked...it also
    mean 'not homosexual'...so I think that either one uses 'straight'
    with the understanding that this is a word and the meaning being
    used in this context is 'not homosexual' rather than...'narrow or
    rigid minded' or 'the opposite of crooked'....or one uses
    'heterosexual'.

    I have to agree that when I first saw the use of the word 'strate'
    it hit me like 'breeder' does...(mostly because both were used in
    the same sentence of something putting down heterosexual people.)
    So my feeling is that there are people who use/used  'strate' in
    a fashion similar to using words like 'breeder' or 'nigger'
    that at some point and by some people this was meant as a put down.

    So is it wrong to perceive that there could well be an insult
    intended here and object to it? We are very supportive of most
    people who say that 'x' or 'y' offends me, without asking them
    to justify same.

    Is Alfred being singled out because he is heterosexual and male?

    and if so, is that right?

    Bonnie

    bonnie,
    
     how do you mean "is alfred being singled out.."? 
    
    i'm not suggesting that because i don't understand the offense taken at
    the spelling of "strate", that the term isn't considered offensive by
    some. 
    
    imo, the term "breeder" carries alot more negative innuendo than an
    alternate spelling of straight. 
    
    maybe you're talking to someone else...
    
    (-: ~robin

    I've started a new topic to discuss this... topic 141.....
    
    -Jody
    

Does 7.21 sound like "baiting" to you?

    
    re: .79
    
    Sounds like biting sarcasm and ironic admonition.  
    
    -Jody
    

Re: .80   

>    re: .79
>    
>    Sounds like biting sarcasm and ironic admonition.  
>    
>    -Jody
    
Could it be both?  I mean what's sarcasm and irony for but to get a reaction.
I don't know who SUPER::EVANS is (male or female) so all I have is the note
to read.  Whether sarcasm or truly felt, I think it is designed to goad.
...just an observation.

    Yes - it waas in the hot-buttons topic and that's generally used as a
    steam valve....
    
    -Jody
    

    Pre-zackly. Having put it in the Hot Button topic, I did not expect
    a reply. If it made someone think, that's a bennie. I needed to blow
    off steam, and that's what I did.
    
    --DE
    

Gotcha.  It got me to thinking.

MM

    
    i thought it was brilliant
    

 >13.101>research lab doing bio-chem, and she says, "I hate feminists."
 >13.101>    
 >13.101 And when I ask why, she replies, "Because they're so loud and ugly and
 >13.101>don't shave." (sic.)
 >        
 >       How do you think she got that impression of "feminists"?
 >
 >	It's not just her opinion, either, many people, men AND women,
 >   feel that way about "feminists".
 >
 >-mike z
    
    
    
    Mike,
    	 How about you, Mike? How do you feel about feminists?
    
     Kate
    

    Well, lessee...I'm a feminist.
    
    Am I loud?  Well, sometimes, but sometimes my mother has to ask me
    to repeat things because my voice is too low.
    
    Am I ugly?  I think I'll pass on that one.
    
    Do I not shave?  Well, actually, I often *do* let three days or
    so go between shaves (and I was doing so *before* Don Johnson :-)).
    
    --- jerry

    
(and I was doing so *before* Don Johnson :-))
    
    And I have been doing so since Don Johnson dropped out of the
    limelight.  (well, maybe work has had some influence in this
    in the past few months)
    
    

    	
    	RE: .93  Mike Z.
    
    	> ps: and I think feminism's negative image is a result of group 1's
     	> exposure.
    
    	It's funny how the negative images that many women and men have of
    	men in our society are called "male bashing" (as if it's untrue, 
    	unfair - and as if the people who promulgate these images must have 
    	something terribly wrong with them.)
    
    	Yet, whenever people bring up negative images of feminists, the same
    	people who often scream about so-called male bashing are the first
    	to insinuate that negative images about feminists are caused by some
    	groups of feminists themselves (as if there is something terrribly 
    	wrong with the *objects* of the bashing, in this case.)
    
    	It must be nice to feel entitled to judge which negative images in
    	our society are deserved, and which aren't.
    

    re .93, your Group 1 are also the only ones who have gotten any
    changes made.  Without your Group 1 there wouldn't have been a women's
    movement at all.  Who do you think made the rest of us aware of
    feminist ideals in the first place?
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .94, .95
    
    Hear, hear!
    

    re .96   Uh, Dawn, could you say that "Hear, hear!" a little more
    softly please?  You're giving the rest of us a bad name....
    
    
    dryly,
    
    J

    Well, if <COMPOSE CHARACTER> would allow me to say it with fewer pixels,
    I'd be delighted. Maybe membership in The Dreaded Group 1 means you
    can't have the Tiny Characters Feature.
    
    <whisper>(hear, hear) - Howzat?
    
    --DE
    

    re:99
    
    somehow it just doesn't surprize me that you don't see anything ironic
    or unusual. 
    
    vivian

   Yeah, but there are some of us that think the bad press should
   take responsibility for *themselves*.

    One datum a lot of people are unaware of:
    
    The concept of "bra burning" was created by the media.  It was never
    a protest activity until long after (if then) the media had spread
    the image far and wide.
    
    Sooooo...what other parts of the feminist image might be, um,
    inauthentic?
    
    						Ann B.

    In fact I've been told that few bras were burned if any because
    they are very hard to burn.
    
    BJ

    Actually it's pretty easy to burn a bra.  Just put it in the dryer
    wihout noticing if the heat and timer are set right. Promise you'll
    check on it in a few minutes.  Half an hour later become aware of a
    sort of "dragstrip odor" coming from the laundry room.
    
    Note: this only works on a favorite bra, especailly if it was a piece
          of lacy "treat yourself" overpriced engineering.  
    
         
         Margaret

>    RE: .94, .95
    
>    Hear, hear!
    
    
    No, no Dawn. It goes like this:
    
    H     H  EEEEEE       A        RRRR
    H     H  E           A A       R   R
    HHHHHHH  EEEE       A   A      RRRR
    H     H  E         AAAAAAA     R   R
    H     H  E        A       A    R    R
    H     H  EEEEEE  A         A   R     R
    
    H     H  EEEEEE       A        RRRR
    H     H  E           A A       R   R
    HHHHHHH  EEEE       A   A      RRRR
    H     H  E         AAAAAAA     R   R
    H     H  E        A       A    R    R
    H     H  EEEEEE  A         A   R     R
    
    
    OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT!
    KATE
    
    

    re: .91

    Well Jerry, I couldn't let that one pass.

    I think you're cute.  Attractive, too.  Appealing?  Yup, that one
    fits as well.  And, I must say, you've got the biggest, softest, 
    darkest, brown eyes I've ever seen.

    A simple "No" would've saved you from this. :-)

    CQ

    
    	RE: .109  Mike Z.
    
    	The common denominator is the subject matter being discussed.
    

       Today's conference notice acknowledging the High Solstice gives
       short shrift, or maybe no shrift at all, to those for whom this
       day is the Low Solstice.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    so happy high, low, middle, outside, inside, otherside, left-wing, and
    right-wing solstice.
    
    Have I covered all the way we can welcome a change of seasons and the
    travel of our lives?
    
    -Jody
    

    dunno mike
    
    the rumor I got was that she could 'out drink, out cuss, and out
    what ever else you'
    
    but it *was* just a rumor.

    I'd bet she could. With capitals, too

I got this from a friend of mine (and on a mailing list)...it's about
usenet but it seems to apply a lot to NOTES and I found it amusing, and
so with his permission I am posting it here.

D!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is a USENET discussion? This is a USENET discussion.
 
Person A says Something.
Person B refutes it. Some of the time, B misinterprets A first (these
	are the fun ones).
A calls person B a twit.
Person C jumps in and argues with both A and B.
A and B form a temporary alliance to pound C into slime.
D, E and F all jump in.  D argues that A has a perfect right to say
	Something, E says that as far as libertarians go, it's fine by him,
	and F says that since he's a Pagan, not allowing him to say what he
	wants is religious discrimination.
A Publicly wonders what libertarian Paganism has to do with Something.
G, H and I comment.  G points out that libertarians are nothing but
	godless American bashers.  H claims that F is going to hell for
	being a Pagan.  I claims that EVERYONE (except him) is going to
	hell for being on the same net as F without putting him to the
	question and then burning him.
J points out that the argument about Someting has now used up three times
	the resources that Something originally did.
A, D, E and H all tell J to shut up.  I tells J he's going to hell.
A publicly wonders what in the heck is going on.  All he said was
	Something.
I tells A he's going to hell.
C tells I to chill out.
D points out that in a libertarian country, I has the right to tell people
	they're going to hell.
I tells D he's going to hell.
D tells I he's a bleeding Marxist and he's done supporting idiots.
M, N and Q suggest that everyone take a deep breath.
I tells them they're going to hell.
U chimes in and tells people about an argument about Nothing over in foo.blah.
A says Something. The silence is deafening.
 
And that's how discussions are held on USENET. 
 
chuq (snicker)
 
-- 
 
Chuq Von Rospach   <+>   [email protected]   <+>   [This is myself speaking]
 
Wherefore could I not pronounce 'Amen'? I had most need of blessing, and
'Amen' stuck in my throat. --Macbeth

    To those who've responded to the "artists" topic, I'd like
    to ask, how do you find the time?
    
    							Hank

    
    
    I don't. It finds me.
    
    I cannot live without my music. I *need* to write the things I write to
    stay healthy. When it is time to do a collage....I just don't do other
    things.
    
    Those three things take precendacne right after Nils and Eric in my
    life.
    
    Melinda

    
    	RE: .various
    
    	What is the STEP program in DEC?  (I've seen it mentioned more than
    	once recently.)
    

    Software Technology Education Program - takes non-SW Engrs and turns
    them into SW Engrs after a 1-1.5 year intensive training
    (lecture/lab/OTJ-training) session.

    re .123
    
    I find that I need my creative projects to provide balance and other
    means of expression for me.  I *find* the time for my creative
    endeavors.
    
    Judi
    

    And great therapy, too.  I find myself getting stressed out and bitchy
    when I don't "indulge" in a bit of creativity now and then.  My
    original needlework is probably the only place I can be fully and 
    completely me, without having to compromise for someone else's idea of 
    what's right and what should be.  In the past I've felt the same way
    about playing the piano and writing poetry.  They're all, for me, a
    private outlet for the thoughts and emotions that I suppress during 
    the day.  
    
    Karen

    
    Thanks for the replies, sincerely.
    I too have been quite stressed recently trying to take care of all
    those things I should be tending to. And I suspect that dreaded
    word "should" might be part of the problem.
    
    Sometimes I feel kind of guilty when I do do something just for 
    myself; I wonder if I'm being selfish. I think your notes will
    help me with regard to that. 
    
    You know, when I was younger, it seemed far easier to do the things
    I wanted. As a husband and parent, it's a skill I seem to have
    lost.
    
    					Thanks for the wisdom
    
    							Hank
                                                            

I agree about the creative stuff.  I think that many of us have lost
the ability to play!  I have been rediscovering it in my life the
last few years.  It's helps me remember what is important in life...

john

    I think that harder you work, the harder you play.
    
    There must be a balance....somewhere!
    
    -Jody
    

    If you play too hard, it stops being play and becomes work.
    Tentative conclusion : don't work so hard that play becomes work.

    �in re 22.369
    
    women = 1 /men = several thousand?
    
    sigh

	Sit on your hands.
	Sit on your hands.
	Sit on your hands.
	Sit on your hands.
	Sit on your hands.
	Sit on your hands.


This has been a public service announcement.

    re .136, D!
�	Sit on your hands.
    
    actually, sounds like fun...

    It depends what you do with your hands as you sit on them.
    
    Bruce

    
    	re: .138 (Bruce Sloane)
    
    	> It depends what you do with your hands as you sit on them.
    
    	[gasp] Bruce!  Not with your daughter listening!! :-] :-]
    
    						nancy b.
    

    nancy b.,
    
    She's heard it all. (%-}
    
    Bruce

    yeah, from him!
    
    kkay

    
    	Just shows how mistaken people's perceptions can be in electronic
    	communications, doesn't it.
    

    
    	The misperceptions multiply before our eyes.
    

Hey Herb, not to worry, I've never fantasized about castrating a man. Of course,
I *have* fantasized about killing one. But that doesn't seem to scare men as
much. And it was one particular man and not *men*. I don't think women think
about castration much at all. It's not something that comes up in conversation
very frequently at all and then it's almost always men who mention it. liesl

    re .146, true, liesl, when you were back east, we had some interesting
    talks but I don't think we ever did get to our castration fantasies,
    did we?   Well, maybe next time...  :-)
    
    Lorna