Conference turris::womannotes-v2

>    And in some strange sense the conference membership allows the abuse to
>    continue. Indeed, even nurtures this abuse.
>    How can I say that? Well, the abuse continues after all! And many folks
>    continue to 'engage' the abusers.
    
Lately, this conference has had me thinking about the stuff I've
been learning about co-dependency.

The goings-on in here in the past couple months or so have a lot of
similarities to the patterns that develop in families that have an
alcoholic family member..... The alcoholic certainly contributes to the
dysfunction of the family; more easily overlooked is the role that
the non-substance-abusers in the family play in the family dysfunction.

Now if I could translate this comparison into some useful suggestions,
maybe I'd have something!

Kathy

Things I do: 
Participate in notes that call to me in a positive way (this is one; I'll say
why in a minute)
Start notes that try to call to others in a positive way
Plant trees (but only in the spring :-).
Give hugs.

This is a bit of a rathole, but an important one for me. Herb, some of your
notes have been very helpful to a friend of mine. I would hate to see them
disappear. Why would you take them away? In case I've forgotten to say this
straight out, thanx for them (and I think you know which ones I mean).

A wise woman (a participate in this conference with the initials JS :-) once
pointed out to me that complaining about something brings it to me, and focuses
energies on it. It's much more cleansing to take those energies and do with
them what I wish. It's harder, and I have fewer places to build when fewer
folks are doing it, but it's pretty rewarding.
	Mez

    Discipline!  Self-discipline!  Do not even think about disciplining
    Someone Else with an ax, even a large ax, even a large, firemen's
    ax with that spike on the -- sorry.
    
    Breathe deeply, and center on the concept:
    
    		The only person I can change is *myself*.
    		The only *person* I can change is myself.
    		The only person I can *change* is myself.
    		The *only* person I can change is myself.
    
    The good news is that your changes affect the way others relate to
    you, and thereby cause them to change their behavior.  (I do not
    guarantee that the results will be an improvement.)
    
    To change means to become different from the way you were before,
    so be sure you can visualize that too.  Translation:  Herb, don't
    delete your notes, dammit!
    
    						Ann B.

 This will undoubtedly be an unpopular response. KP' for non-masochists.

>    And in some strange sense the conference membership allows the abuse to
>    continue. Indeed, even nurtures this abuse.
>    How can I say that? Well, the abuse continues after all! And many folks
>    continue to 'engage' the abusers.

 For one thing, conference guidelines are not dictated solely by the 
participants of this conference; they are subject to corporate strictures.

 One of the reasons the "abuse" continues is that the "abuse" has been defined
as "any writings by subset X of people." There are reasonable points that are
being made that simply are not being addressed as reasonable points. They are
being characterised in zillions of ways but they are not being addressed. And
it is obvious that the "abusers" will not go away until their points are 
addressed. And there is no reason to NOT address the points raised (if one does
not take the sex of the subset into account.)

>    Another solution would be to summarily delete ALL comments by 'offenders'.

 Corporate guidelines preclude such draconian measures, fortunately.

 Your entry assesses the problems brought into the file by a certain group of 
people. However, it fails to acknowledge any degree of culpability by ANYONE
else. And that's where it falls short.

 There are alot of type A's here. Make no mistake about it; the type A's of
one sex are not completely guilty and the type A's of the other are not
completely innocent.

 But who cares... everyone already KNOWS _they_ are right. No need to engage the
brain at all...

 The Doctah

    
    Perhaps I've missed something here but it seems to me that we have a
    way of addressing this "abuse".  One of the rules of wommennotes is to
    label your note with what kind of response you would or wouldn't like. 
    So, if you're entering a subject that is touchy for you, label it as
    such and anyone who abuses you is breaking the rules.  If I remember
    correctly, any notes that break rules are deleted by moderators.
    
    Also, I would be careful that we don't become oversensitive.  Arguing
    isn't always bad.  People whom we label as extremists spice up the
    world.  If someone in particular has offended you, then why not send
    them mail and ask them to control themselves?  Or ask them for furthur
    explaination?  I guess I've been an infrequent noter lately so maybe
    I've missed something but the dissagreements I've been in have been
    mostly fun.  
    
    Something I think we all should keep in mind is the diversity of this
    audience.  Because of this diversity, alot of subjects entered here
    will evoke real emotion in people.  Some negative, some positive.  This
    causes conflict and arguments.  We have to all remember that what we say
    may be taken personally by other people and the reply to what we say
    will be just as personal.  I think if everyone followed the old 'count
    to 100' adage, we'd be better off.  ('Turn the other cheek' is a good
    one too!)
    
    Rachael
    

    What I have choesen to do about this is to attempt get behavior to be
    modified. I have not been sufficiently successful.
    
    It is not in my best interest to participate in this conference any
    further.
    I do not want my entries to be associated with this conference.
    
    I have deleted all my entries.

    Herb, Herb, Herb.
    
    > What I have choesen to do about this is to attempt get behavior to be
    > modified. I have not been sufficiently successful.
    
    In general, folks don't respond well to overtly manipulative behavior.
    
    While I may agree that your goals were admirable, your understanding 
    of the human dynamics involved was not.  And your tactics were
    heavy-handed and doomed to failure.  Conferences and human behavior
    are not subject to a straight-ahead campaign.  What motivates humans 
    to act as they do is far too complex and misunderstood even by the
    individuals themselves, to expect that a logical, rational, self-
    enlightened approach would have any chance of correcting those acts.
    
    There are, however, means to the same end.  These means are not so
    obvious.  Those means involve determining what kinds of behavior you
    want to see in the conference (you've done that) and then go about
    encouraging that sort of behavior in ways that people will respond
    to.  There are several ways to do this.  Writing people private
    email in support when they have written notes that reflect what you
    consider to be admirable behavior; writing similarly-styled notes
    yourself; responding to positive trends and discussions in the file,
    and letting the negative ratholes pass by; refusing to rise to the bait
    of the people whose behavior you'd like to correct, (especially when
    their stated goals in the file don't jibe with your own); and, in
    general, making this file into the kind of place you want it to be 
    by treating it as if it were already that way.
    
    I regret to say that I think your action of deleting your notes upon
    your exit has hampered the rest of us who are still working on
    improving the climate in here.  Your contributions were often very
    useful and showed that you were actively listening, and I don't think
    any more can be expected of anyone.  But in choosing a path for this
    community, I think you'll be more effective in working *with* the rest
    of us, rather then alone.  You can still be supportive of admirable
    goals for this conference if you choose to be.
    
    DougO

    
    
    Doug,  I really like what you've said, especially the part about
    modelling the behavior you'd like to see more of and acting like this
    file is already the kind of place you want it to be.  
    
    Justine