Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I'm confused about this.  Don't people do things like this (the
    grandfather molesting his granddaughters) because they are mentally
    ill?  (and can't control their behavior?)  Perfectly normal, sane,
    ordinary men don't suddenly decide it would be an interesting activity
    to molest their granddaughters and daughters, do they?  What I'm
    trying to say is, isn't this something that people do because they
    are sick, not something they do out of malevolence?
    
    If your grandfather were a younger man, 55 yrs old, for example,
    I would think it would be good to confront him with his behavior,
    and somehow force him to have counseling himself.  But, if he is
    a very old man, who probably only has a few yrs. left to live (and
    could begin to get senile at any time), I can't help but wonder
    what good can be done by confronting him with his behavior at this
    late date?  He's old, he'll probably die soon anyway, and no one
    will be subjected to his perverted behavior again.
    
    Lorna
    
  

    See also (some may have information about how to resolve feelings abuse
    survivors and their families have).....
    
    Womannotes-V1
    343 - Incest - the "coming out"
    544 - child sexual abuse - Boston Globe series
    705 - abused children
    
    Womannotes-V2
    202 - sexual molestation
    816 - sexual abuse of children - incest
    1024 - 12-step and incest survivor
    
    Human_relations
    34 - child abuse - the victims
    608 - any notes on sexual abuse?
    
    Mennotes
    149 - childhood abuse / adult results
    199 - male victims of sexual abuse
    
    Self_Help
    35 - bleeding from a wound nobody else can see
    
    Psychology 
    102 - healing a secret - Boston Globe article on incest
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    	I have a feeling this is going to be an unpopular opinion,
    	however, I must say it. I take no issue with the fact that
    	incestuous behavior is beyond reprehensible and is not something
    	our society can ignore hoping it will go away. It won't. 
    	However, what you said about your grandmother is what provoked
    	this particular response. Right now, I am wondering what you
    	really hope to gain from the course of action you are taking.
    	It sounds like you are quite angry, not only for yourself
    	but for your sister. I understand the anger but is a confrontation
    	at this point going to undo what was done? Will it make things
    	better? It seems to have happened a long time ago. Do you think
    	he is still capable of this behaviour? What will a confrontation
    	do to your family? By family, I mean primarily your mother, 
    	grandmother, sister and all the relationships there? I don't mean
    	to be insensitive. This is a touchy situation but I would recommend 
    	giving it some more thought before acting. Talk some more to your 
    	sister about it. Does she agree with your actions? This is hers
    	too.
        Wishing for you a resolution that lays this all to rest, whatever
    	you decide.
    							kim
    

I think you should communicate honestly with your grandparents.

Don't just blow up and call them scum.  Instead, talk to them from your heart.
Express your anger at what your grandfather did.  Express your sadness if
that comes up too.

One thing that bothers me is when I hear people say things like "I don't
know whether my grandmother could take it".  Yes, she's old, but she can
take it.

All too often, we assume WE can take things and that OTHER people can't take
things, so we don't talk.

I believe you'll be doing yourself and all of them a service, and a good
heart-cleansing to yourself, to "get this off your chest" before he dies.

If he denies it, don't argue too much.  His denial is either because he
really doesn't remember it, or because he chooses to deny it.  If he
really doesn't remember it, arguing does no good.

If he chooses to deny it, the mere fact that he knows that you remember and
are upset is enough.  Also, having your grandmother know is important.

I think alot of sex abuse cases in this world could be handled alot better
if people could become more willing to just speak the truth.  At first it
hurts, but people get over THAT hurt (the hurt of discovering that their
husband did this thing for example) alot better than people get over the
hurt of keeping such molestations secret.

Thanks for listening.

/Eric

    kim,

    As long as the perpetrator is still alive, the perpetrator is
    still capable of invoking the same response that was generated
    in the first instance of the abuse.  Healing only occurs for the
    survivor when ALL the issues surrounding the abuse have been 
    dealt with.  This does not mean that face-to-face confrontation
    HAS to take place....confrontation with a dead perpetrator can
    and does take place and can successfully generate enough healing
    for the survivor to integrate the past into the present.  The 
    anger and hostility that a survivor carries within themselves
    needs to be let out and worked through.  What is most helpful
    for any victim of abuse is for non-abused individuals NOT to
    question the victim's way of surviving....that only halts progress
    for them and places an added burden that they don't need.  It 
    is easy to stand by looking on and "see" what needs to be done
    to make it all better, but, for the victim, this has been an 
    excruitiating painful part of their life.  Some victims have 
    had to bury the experience/experiences deep within themselves
    and even taken on multiple selves in order to even be able to
    cope with living on any level.  

    Grab a load of books on incest/sexual abuse and read what happens
    to many, many little humans (MALE & FEMALE) at some very incompre-
    hensible young age!  Try to imagine even a small part of what most
    victims have had to endure as happening to you.   Then, figure out
    how your brain would cope with living a carefree life!  It's hard
    to do for those of us that have not been victims of this type of
    abuse to totally comprehend the enormity of the mechanisms used 
    to survive!  Try it....try being a little empathic.  That doesn't
    mean finding the right solution for someone but supporting the
    survivor enough so that *they* can make whatever steps they need
    to make for *themselves*.  That's the best anyone can do.  Do not
    take any more power of control away from them or challenge their
    power to control themselves.

    justme....jacqui

I do not think it is the result of mental illness Lorna. Men are taught some
very horrible things about women. Rape being illegal within marriage (within
the family, right?) is a recent development in the US. The attributes of women
that our culture deems attractive are the attributes of children (youth,
innocent, naivety).
	Mez

    Re .7, but our society also teaches men (and women) that incest
    is taboo.  Our society has never taught men that it is OK to have
    sex with their granddaughters.
    
    Lorna
    

OK Herb; are they mentally ill? Or is it something else.

No need to let ignorant statements go unchallenged.
	Mez

    re - .10
    
    Mez, how do you define "mentally ill"?
    
    re - .9
    
    Lorna, true, our society teaches men and women that incest is taboo.
    And it is my understanding that those who *break* this taboo further
    perpetuate it by letting their victims know that they (the victims) 
    will get into even worse trouble if anyone else finds out that it 
    happened.
    
    Ramblin',
    
    Carol
    

What sort of bad things are women taught about children? None come to my mind. 
	Mez

    The following response is from another member of our community who
    wishes to remain anonymous at this time.

    							=maggie
    ====================================================================

    I know exactly how you feel.

    I have always remembered a time when my brother and I were in our
    bedroom, and my grandfather held out his erection and asked us to play
    with it. I was very scared.  I always wondered if that was a dream or
    not because it just didn't seem possible.  That's the only occasion
    that I ever remember my grandfather trying anything.  I don't know if
    it could have happened more or not.  Maybe I blocked it out.  It's too
    bad, that's my only memory of my grandfather (he died when I was very
    young, I must have been around 5 years old when he tried this).  

    I know that this really did happen and that it was not a dream.  In the
    last couple of years I found out a lot of things about him.  He
    molested all of his daughters.  One of them got pregnant.  She has his
    baby and he went to jail.   

    My husband mentioned that he wanted to name our first born [name].  I
    said "NO WAY", that was my grandfather's name and I would never name a
    baby after him.  

    I never had to deal with what you have to.  He died when I was about 9
    years old.  I really understand what you are going through but I don't
    think I would confront my grandfather if he was still living.  I agree
    with what Kim had to say.  At least for myself.  All I can think of is
    my grandparents on the other side.  I would never want to hurt my
    grandmother if she had no idea.  What's the point if it happened years
    and years ago.  They probably only have a few years left, so why make
    it unhappy for them.  (please understand that I am speaking only for
    myself and not trying to say that you confronting your grandfather is
    wrong).  Then again, who knows, he could still possibly try to molest a
    great-granddaughter.  It's a tough decision to make.  I hope you can
    work things out within yourself.  
                          

    Since at *least* (this stuff often goes unreported) 25% of adult women
    have been sexually abused before adulthood, I have trouble believing 
    that *all* the men who do this are mentally ill.
    
    I tend to go along with the theory that this behaviour stems from the
    way men are taught/socialized/allowed/encouraged to look at women and
    children.
    
    Unless sexism can be viewed as mental illness.
    
    Hmmmmm......
    
    

    Since you asked.
    
    							Ann B.

    I'm sorry to come in right behind you, Herb, since it's clear that this
    is an important issue for you, but it's time to put on the brakes.
    
    This is not the place to carry on a discussion about the sex membership
    of abusers, folks.  Please take it elsewhere.
    
    						=maggie

    
    I think the most important thing here is that the survivor do what
    she needs to do to feel in control of her life.  If she wants to
    go see her grandfather and yell her head off at him, I say, go to it.
    She is the one who has been injured, and she has a right to be angry
    and to express that anger.
    
    About her grandmother --
    
    This is a tough thing, and I think it's much more complicated than
    saying, if she tells, her grandmother will suffer, so she shouldn't
    tell.  This survivor is not the cause of her grandmother's pain --
    the abuser is.  It is all his fault.  Every bad thing that he did
    is his fault, and every bad thing that happens as his granddaughters
    (and perhaps his daughter) come to term with this sexual abuse is HIS
    FAULT.  In families where there is a secret (this can be alcoholism,
    violence, sexual abuse..), I suspect that everyone knows at least
    some of what is going on, and I think that every member of the family
    suffers from the anger, the guilt, the shame, and the tension that
    results from knowing but not naming the truth.  I think that in these
    dysfunctional families all that anger and pain can get misdirected
    at the one who's brave enough to tell.  Sometimes families deny
    a member's alcoholism and shun the child who complains about it,
    or they'll make the little girl who tells on Daddy feel like she
    brought it on -- anything to keep the secret, to keep the shame buried.
    
    This woman is not responsible for helping her family keep this secret.
    She is only responsible for being true to herself, whatever that means
    to her.  I wish her the best, and I hope that she and her sisters will
    be able to support each other.  I also hope that when/if it feels
    right, the basenoter and her sisters will find some support outside
    the family -- e.g. a support group or private or family therapist.
    I think hearing other stories and having their own story heard and
    validated will be very healing for them.
    
    Wishing the basenoter and her family all the best,
    
    Justine

<    This survivor is not the cause of her grandmother's pain --
<    the abuser is.  It is all his fault.  Every bad thing that he did
<    is his fault, and every bad thing that happens as his granddaughters
<    (and perhaps his daughter) come to term with this sexual abuse is HIS
<    FAULT.  

YES!  Great note, Justine!  You are absolutely right!

I also want to reiterate that as long as the abuser is protected, HE CAN ABUSE
AGAIN!  Just because a man seems old, and perhaps even frail, DOES NOT
MEAN THAT IS NOT ABUSING ANOTHER CHILD *NOW!*  We already know that three 
children have been abused by this man.  We suspect that another child was
abused by him.  By not confronting him and by keeping the secret of abuse
for him, we are enabling him to abuse again.

        Carol

    
    
    
    re .23   I agree with what you said, Carol, but...
    
    I think the choice of how to deal with the abuse must always be the
    survivor's.  One benefit to prosecuting a rapist or telling on a sexual
    abuser may be that the abuser will be stopped, but it makes me
    uncomfortable to suggest that the survivor *should* take responsibility
    for preventing future abuse.  I agree that these are compelling reasons
    to come forward, but I think that the survivor's only responsibility is
    to care for herself.
    
    Justine

I'm mixed about that, Justine.  I certainly wouldn't want a survivor to
do this before she was ready.  The base note survivor has anonymously
already started this, though, so she may feel that she can do this anonymously.
I see two important things here: that the survivors are able to heal, and that
the abuser does not abuse again.  I do not know any hard line between the
two; I think that it depends on the individual survivor what she can do when.

       Carol

    
    I believe there is a basic necessity for justice that requires
    that the crime be reported.
    
    I cannot imagine that any other consideration could outrank the
    need that justice be done, and that the victims see it done.
    
    That is my take, for what its worth...

    Bob.
    
    Your note actually hits on the edge of the difference...
    
    in the most cases, women studied cared more that the individual
    was helped out of what ever problem they had than that some
    abstract of 'the guilty be punished' be obseved. Further we
    as women tend to be criticised and put down by men for feeling
    that the individual's needs are more important than the abstract
    good of society and rules.
    
    Bonnie