Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    	It would be interesting to see what the separatist environment
    	is like.  
    
    	When the national news coverage showed pictures of the Pro-Choice
    	March in Washington last year, the sight of thousands and thousands
    	of mostly women was absolutely stunning - it's an image that I'll
    	never forget as long as I live!  (As remarkable as it was to see
    	on a TV screen, I can just imagine how much more impressive it
    	must have been to experience it in person!)
    
    	It would be interesting to hear more about women who've carved
    	a nearly women-only space in their everyday lives.
    
    	Thanks for bringing this up, Carla!

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.

    							=maggie
    ====================================================================

    Hi Carla,

    I am only aware of lesbian separatist groups here in the USA. It would 
    be interesting to find out if there are heterosexual and bi-sexual
    women  making this choice in their lives.              
   
    None of my women friends believe in a separatist ideology [I'm sure it 
    would have come up in a conversation(-:], although most of them do
    believe  that women-only space is necessary in their lives to one
    degree or another.
   
    Last spring I attended a regional meeting for the upcoming national 
    lesbian conference. I met some women from Florida who spoke of their
    experiences in trying to live a separatist lifestyle. From what I 
    remember of the discussion, the biggest problem they encountered was in 
    the public utilities service(s).
   
    I've wondered what it would be like living in a women-only community. I 
    do enjoy the limited amount of women-only space I can weave into my
    life.  I could see myself choosing to join a separatist community as a
    way of day-to-day living preference.  It would not prohibit me from
    including the men  in my life that are special to me - but it would
    limit their ability to  visit me in my home environment. I believe I
    could live with that  limitation.

An old school chum of mine has been a separatist since 1972, when she 
dropped out of school, broke up with her fiance, and moved to a 
separatist commune somewhere in the mountain West.  These women decided
that the only way to deal with male domination was to free themselves
totally from any dependence on men was to reject them totally.  Some
of the women were lesbians, but most were heterosexuals who decided 
that they would find their satisfaction with women lovers only.

These women are very radical, even violent.  They totally reject having 
anything to do with men.  One of the requirements of joining the commune
is to specifically and personally tell your father he's a sexist jerk -- 
phone or letter is fine.  When they say, "Smash the patriarchy," they mean
go out and pour paint on the cars of passing businessmen (she got 6 months
in the county jail for that one).  

I haven't heard from her in about three years now -- the last time she 
wrote, she berated me for betraying the cause by letting a man father
my children . . .

--bonnie

    Those are the scary ones!  If there were a community like that near me,
    I'd go armed and likely move away out of fear.  Their notion of how the
    world should work and what to do about it is just too alien for me.
    
    Fortunately, the *vast* majority of separatists are not anti-men at
    all...they just seem that way to people who are only used to women who
    are pro-men.   
    
    						=maggie

.3> Some of the women were lesbians, but most were heterosexuals who 
.3> decided that they would find their satisfaction with women lovers 
.3> only.

Bonnie, I don't quite understand this statement.  If possible, would 
you explain the difference?  (Yes, it's still early in Seattle.)

Carla

re: .5

Carla --

They felt that an emotionally supportive and nonexploitive relationship 
with other women, even if it was sexually not their natural orientation,
was preferable to a relationship in which they felt threatened,
exploited, and helpless, even if that relationship was sexually more
satisfying or more according to their inclination.

--bonnie

    Wow. Seems to me it's terribly difficult to manage a seperatist
    lifestyle. I try to  support women-owned businesses and have women
    doctor/dentist/etc. , but even that is difficult sometimes.
    
    Imagine having to find women house-painters, plumbers,
    electricians, contractors, automobile dealers [*especially* automobile
    dealers]... wow. There are women who do all of these things, but having
    them all in or near the place you need them to be seems nigh on to
    impossible. 
    
    --DE
    

    re: .8 Kim
    
    Separatism just means wanting to live apart.  I think different groups
    have different motivations.  The ones in .0 seem to just want to live
    somewhere that's not in the shadow of men; the ones Bonnie wrote about
    want to tear down all of patriarchal society.
    
    So being separatist doesn't necessarily mean you are using it as a
    technique to "fight male oppression."  It might mean you are tired of
    fighting in a man's world and want to find a woman's world (personal
    refuge).  It might mean you want to find out what being in a woman's
    world is like, so you can see where the differences are (path to
    learning).
    
    So I agree it's probably not the most straightforward way of solving a
    problem, but maybe it's not intended to be.
    
    Pam

Kim,

    I think the idea of female separatism is more to "take a break" 
    from a society in which men are dominant and women devalued.
    Most separatists, I think, would not present it as an attempt
    to "solve" the problem, merely to avoid it.

    Thus, by seceding from the society from a period of time in this 
    way, you are making a statement that you do not consent to male 
    dominance and female devaluation.  In addition, you gain the
    strength that comes from being in a group which *does* value you 
    fully, albeit at the "price" of not belonging to the mainstream.

    To draw a parallel: let's say that you have a job which continously
    depresses you and stresses you out.  You could take a vacation, or
    you could simply choose not to spend your days that way anymore, 
    period.  Either way, you're not so much solving the original problem 
    (i.e., the source of the depression and stress) as removing it from 
    your personal scope.  For those still left during your absence or
    after you leave, the "problem" (insofar as it exists for them) is
    still there.

	Sharon

    Well, say you've been spending all your life fighting this massive
    problem, and you're completely worn out and can't fight anymore.
    You need that massive solution _now_.

    Separatism is one way to emulate that in your personal life.  Of 
    course it's evasive!  That's the point;  you can always go back to 
    fighting once you're fully "rested".  In the meantime, you've had
    an opportunity to "remobilize" and gain perspective.

    Some of these women have just decided that society isn't worth the
    "price", ever.  That they have better things to do than to try and
    move stationary boulders.  I find it mildly discomforting, too...
    after all, these women are invalidating my choices, and rejecting 
    the cause I fight for.

    But I can see why they would do it, too.  Having gone to a women's
    college (more _in_spite_of_ it's being a women's college than _because_),
    and having found it a (surprisingly!) empowering experience, I think
    there's more value to separatism than meets the eye.

	Sharon

    There's a really powerful book called BLACK LIKE ME.  I have it at home
    but don't remember who wrote it.
    
    In the late 50's, the author -- who is white -- wanted to find out what
    segregation and discrimination FEELS like.  He dyed his skin and
    travelled all over the south for a few months, changing back and forth
    from "white" to "black" to "white" over a period of a couple of months.
    Stepping out of his privileged position as a white in white-dominated
    society made him see clearly, in a way that was impossible for him
    while he was part of that society, what was going on.
    
    Sometimes you have to step outside a mess to see it more clearly.
    
    I don't mind you being uncomfortable with feminist separatism, Kim, as
    long as you agree that it's all right for separatists to be
    uncomfortable with mixed society!
    
    Pam

I was told by a male (not sure I remember which one) that he has dealt with a
female separatist via a 'translator'. The separatist would tell the translator
what she needed (say, a pack of Marlboro lites), and the translator (a woman)
would ask the male counter-help for it. Since I can't remember the exact
details of the story, it may or may not be true.
	Mez

    
    	One of my aunts has been a "translator" of sorts for a convent
    	of cloistered nuns for many years.  This aunt is not a nun herself,
    	but she is permitted to enter the cloister to get instructions on
    	how to conduct the "outside world" business of the convent - she
    	would then be prepared to interact with people outside the convent
    	on their behalf.  Very, very few people were allowed inside.
    
    	When I was a child, I once visited the convent with my aunt.  I
    	was not allowed inside, but I did get to say hello to one of the
    	nuns there (although I couldn't see her.)  She was operating a
    	revolving receptacle (set up for the exchange of books or other
    	small items through a wall.)  We'd brought some items they'd
    	requested during my aunt's errands, and we placed them in the 
    	receptacle (which was then rotated so that the nuns on the other 
    	side could pick them up.)
    
    	My understanding is that some of these women hadn't seen people
    	(aside from my aunt, and a select few others) for several
    	decades.

    
    	My feeling about the separatist movement is - more power to 'em!
    	
    	It doesn't happen to be feasible in my own life, but I see some
    	real benefits for those that can work it out in their lives. It's
    	also something I wouldn't mind trying from time to time (as a
    	vacation.)  I don't see any ethical problems with it as a choice
    	for individual women.
    
    	Would love to find out more about the kinds of groups mentioned in
    	the basenote.  The whole concept of "women-space" fascinates me.
    

     RE:0
    
    Several months ago I read an article (with photos) about a HOTEL
    in London, England that caters to women only. Most of those who stay
    there are women on business trips to London, who happen to prefer a
    hotel for women. The owner, employees etc.. are all women.
    
    The hotel accepts all women, as long as they can afford the rates.
    
    It was said to be doing pretty well - ( making money )
    I don't remember the name or the street address -[ It can be verified
    by looking in a directory or calling information. ]
    
    

re: .18

Reminds me of an all-woman (all-women?) resort in Cle Elum, Washington,
approximately 60 miles east of Seattle.  But this place, and the hotel
in London, are temporary retreats for women who desire women-space.  I
have heard of many such places across the US, and it warms my heart to 
know they exist in other countries as well.

I see a *vast* difference between surrounding yourself exclusively with 
female energy for a few days or a week, and maintaining that as a way of 
life.  I agree with those who assert it must be difficult to achieve on 
a full-time basis. But temporarily, wow, what a haven!

Carla

The separatists I was talking about earlier opted out of society because 
they don't think the problem is solvable so long as men are allowed any 
voice in running the world.  

They think that men are by nature aggressive and violent, and there's no
hope of reforming them by any amount of social change 

They visualize a world sort of like the one in The Gate to Women's
Country -- or like the old song we used to sing in school:

Reuben, Reuben, I've been thinking
What a grand world this would be
If the men were all transported
Far beyond the northern sea . . .

That song ends with Reuben promising to marry Rachel and take care of 
her if she won't send all the men away, but these women have given a
different answer.  Only since it isn't possible to transport all the 
men, they transport themselves instead. 

--bonnie