Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    There's an old joke about a car with only two speeds -
    too fast and too slow.
    
    Trying to push a relationship forward faster than it is 
    meant to go is disastrous. So is not pushing hard enough 
    when the relationship can and should be moving forward. 

    How fast is fast enough ? Durned if I know. But asking *her*
    is usually a good way to regulate your velocity. (hey, it's
    her relationship, too :-) )
    
    

    
    
    Here's my 2 cents.
    Looking back on the relationships, (friendships and/or dating), that
    I've had with men, it seems to me that if we were going to date,it
    happened quickly.  I can't think of any exception to this rule.  By
    quickly, I mean within a week or 2 of spending time together.  The
    friendships that were just that, friendships, sometimes had sexual 
    interludes but usually ended after them.  I guess if there was a
    mutual, physical attraction and we got along, then we were dating. 
    Otherwise, we remained simply friends.  Perhaps this woman has a point.  
    When my fiance and I first spent time together, it was with a group
    skiing.  That evening, he asked me if I'd like to go skiing with him
    that weekend.  It was just obvious to me that this was a date.  (What
    we ended up doing was spending the weekend in Vermont which made it
    pretty easily interpreted as a date.  Boy, did my mother panic!)
    
    Anyways, I'm not sure how but perhaps you should indicate a romantic
    interest early on.  I realize that this is risking a friendship, but if
    it's early on then you haven't really built a friendship yet. 
    (Perhaps a "can I kiss you goodnight" would work.)  However, if you
    haven't been flirting at all, I wouldn't try a kiss.
    
    I wish I could tell you more.  I just always operated by the
    seat-of-the-pants approach.  (no pun intended)
    
    Rachael
    

    re: .3
    Then 'love at first sight' was some basis?
    
    The movie 'sex, lies, and videotape' left some food for thought.
    Wasn't it the guy with the sexual dysfunction who said that women
    learn to be attracted to those they love and men learn to love those
    they are attracted to?
    
    Pat who-is-trying-to-think-with-his-other-organ

>    Then 'love at first sight' was some basis?

I don't know about 'love at first sight' but I do know that every person
I've fallen in love with, I knew it was going to happen (one might say
it even started to happen) by the end of the first date.

D!

    It seems to me that female desire is blatantly absent from the
    question in the base note.  I get the impression from your note,
    Pat, that you may be thinking that woman's feelings turn sexual
    quietly and privately and that man's obligation to her is to not
    push before that, and his obligation to himself is to not wait
    after that.  And your question seems to be asking, "How do I know
    when that happens?"
    
    When a man and a woman who have mutual physical desire for each
    other are alone together, it's usually impossible to 'hide' that
    fact.  Nature, being what it is, draws men and women together via
    one of the most compelling forces known.
    
    My answer would be that, if you have to ask, it hasn't happened.
    If you continue to be friendly, supportive, loving and not being
    afraid to let your chemistry show, (small, inadvertent touches, eye 
    contact lingering a little longer than mere friends would, etc), a
    woman who feels the same will be compelled to return the signals.  To 
    try to rush this is to miss the exquisite delight of the dance and
    risk regret.  So don't get stuck on your 'goal' and trying to find the
    right buttons to push to achieve it.  Rather, pay attention to your
    friend and the relationship you have now.  I'm sure she tells you
    in many non-verbal ways her level of physical interest and you have
    plenty of opportunity to signal yours.  Don't underestimate the power 
    sensitivity has with women who more often than not meet goal-oriented 
    men.  Maybe you haven't noticed her signals but she's most likely
    picked up on yours.  Unless you're certain she's accepted you as
    a friend and will give you the benefit of the doubt, you risk putting 
    yourself in the category of men who will do/say anything to get
    sex from a woman and once she suspects that, your interest will
    seem more like an interest in yourself than in any particular woman.
    
    Then, of course, there's always the way *real* friends interact -
    honestly.  If she's the one who greets you with "How's your love
    life?", why can't you answer, "I dunno, something's missing..."
    with a sly smile?  If she's your buddy, tell her outright in a safe moment,
    (a public place with lots of distraction, just before the waiter
    arrives, the movie starts, etc), and with a laugh.  But don't tell her 
    *what* you want, (she knows), tell her why.  Saying sincerely, "Gawd, 
    you always make me feel so warm and good", or "I just love your sense
    of humor", with a smile and a touch just before you part or just
    as your friends are approaching, etc.  It will express what you 
    want, give you both a safe out, and leave her thinking.  You want to
    get her thinking!  Telling a woman you find her attractive is too
    generic and unimaginative.  Tell her what you find special and
    wonderful about HER and what that quality does for you.  You want
    intimacy?  Get intimate!
    
    
    

    re: .6
    Thanks for the pointers.
    Non-verbal clues do speak louder than words... I've let my side of a
    conversation go 'thunk' because I wasn't listening to other things than
    the words, or because of the dreaded anything-for-sex goal.
    
    Funny, the approaches and clues you've suggested for me have gotten my
    attention in the past... 
    
    Pat.