Conference turris::womannotes-v2

>    Can counseling really make a difference ? 

If counseling is the same as therapy, it has made a difference to me. But I
wanted it to. It also makes a difference in how I treat Joe, which makes a
difference in his life.

I'm not sure how well I can speak to the issues of trust. I have loved people I
would _not_ share a checking account with! Trusting someone I love, but who
cannot control cash, with my emotions, but not my money, seems like an entirely
consistant thing to me. But perhaps you are talking about a kind of trust for
which this parallel does not help.
	Mez

    re .0 >Can I make a difference....
    
    Yes, but make it clear that a) you want to b) you're trying to
    and c) you need at least a little cooperation from her. 
    
    We all need to trust someone. *Be* the person she can trust
    and wait. If she expresses mistrust, be patient, pressure 
    will make it absolutely impossible for her to trust you.
    
    Lost trust/ability to trust is the hardest thing to regain.
    Time and absolutely trustworthy friends are the only cure.
    
    Good luck
    Dana

 You can make a difference but she has to let you. She gates whether your inputs
are monitored or ignored. Having been in a similar relationship once before,
I am afraid that you are not in a good position unless she decides she is
ready to heal.

 It sounds like things are deteriorating, or at least they have and are now 
maintaining a steady state. One thing that you must realize is that all of
your love and support may not be enough for her. She may have to lose you to
spark her into healing herself. I'm not sure what finally happened to my former
SO, but despite my help, she got worse before the relationship dissolved.

 I don't mean to depress you at all. I would like you to realize that the ball
is essentially in her court. You are in a very difficult situation. I hope you
have the strength to work at it with her until the situation corrects itself.

 Good luck-

 The Doctah

    TRUST is so very important in a relationship. 
    
    I believe you truly CAN make a difference in your wife's life. 
    You will eventually become the source of strength and security as she
    learns [slowly and little by little] to trust again.  
    
    I suggest that you need to be patient, and very, very strong for
    her.  The counseling is an excellent beginning on this journey,
    but I don't believe it can solve everything.  It can only offer
    some tools and guidance for problem solving.
    
    One last suggestion:  Never, NEVER give up who/what you are, if
    you are happy with what you see in the mirror.  You can continue to 
    be supportive and loving without losing your identity.
    
    Look inside your heart.  You'll find the answers there. 
    
    Peace & Strength,
    marcia           

    The only person that you can change through councelling is you.
    You can learn how to communicate (both ways). You can learn how
    to understand and tollerate.
    
    Bot you can NOT change the way someone else thinks. I'm certainly
    not negative about councelling. I went and it helped me feel great
    about being me. A person will only change if and when he wants to.
    
    Kate
    

    Dear anonymous friend:
    
    I wish I could talk to you in person.
    
    Like your wife, I, also, came from a very dysfunctional family.  I
    didn't believe in love (especially in verbal expressions of love).  
    
    Therapy has been truly helpful for me -- especially the most emotional
    therapies:  one called re-parenting in which the goal was to establish
    a parental-like connection with first a female and later a male
    therapist, and go through the growing-up stages again; and
    co-counseling, which I've spoken about a little in this file.  I think
    therapy *can* work, but as most noters have replied, it's really in her
    ballpark.  It's still a mystery to me why people like your wife hang
    around those who are still hurting her:  I suppose it's related to a
    real attempt on her part to work through the pain, but I don't think it
    is working *at all* for her.
    
    What's a mystery to me about you, however, is why you have allowed her
    to effect your friendships, [egads! even your hairdresser], and your
    family relationships.  It seems to me that you, too, need to do some
    growing.  I *know* about the strength of neurotic people; but I think
    I'd say something to her like, "I love you dear, but you're a bully."
    
    I was married to a man, now on his fourth marriage, whose position in
    all his marriages has been that he is fine, healthy, loving, and there
    is something wrong with his wives, and why can't his love cure them. 
    He has convinced most people around him of this "truth" also.  I had to
    get far away from him before I saw that he had never dealt with his
    mother's giving him up to her own mother, supposedly at her new
    husband's insistence, or with his lack of a father.  HIS pain he
    doesn't know anything about, but he is an expert on theirs.
    
    What I am saying here, is that taking a position that "I'm fine, but
    I'm not so sure about you," is poisonous.  YOU CHOSE HER FOR SOME
    REASON, and "love" is too limited an explanation.
    
    Briana    

    She married someone whom she trusts "less than zero"?  I suspect
    her family has eroded her self-esteem so much that she now seeks
    out punishment.  She chases after a family who hurts her, and she
    marries a man she doesn't trust.
    
    Do your attempts to win her trust anger her?  Because in this scenario,
    she NEEDS to feel your potential betrayal.  Does she belittle you
    for being a "wimp" when you bend over backwards trying to be a nice
    guy?  I don't think she wants a nice guy.  She wants someone who
    will validate her belief that all people are scum, or at least all
    the people willing to pay attention to her.  She "wouldn't belong
    to a club that would have her for a member".   It's a comfortable
    feeling.  You never have to reach out to anyone because you've decided
    no one's worth it.  I know.  I've been there.
    
    But that doesn't help you much, does it.  A little classical
    conditioning may work here. 
    
    Start with little things that seem to generally make her happy.  It's 
    the feeling of, "this makes me feel good" that you need to cultivate 
    in her but first she has to recognize what that feeling is and get
    comfortable with it.  As long as you associate it with things and
    not people, it will be "safe" and she'll be free to feel joy.  
    
    A favorite dinner cooked just the right way - a book by a favorite
    author - a houseplant - cashmere against her skin - whatever you have 
    noticed brings her true joy is what you need to start with.  But
    don't include yourself, i.e. don't say "look what *I* did for *you*.
    
    Let her find the things, experience the pleasure by herself. AFter
    a while, and only your sensitivity will tell you when, you can begin
    to include yourself in those good feelings, i.e. you can hand her
    a goodie and wait for her response.
    
    In this way, you can help her learn to associate joy with people but
    not too much too soon.  Once she discovers what you're doing, you've
    lost.
    
    And also give her lots of room. Don't always be the one to express
    the closeness in your relationship.  Wait, and give her time to
    discover she wants to express it, too.
    
    And lastly, watch out for vague accusations.  Ask her for specifics.
    She doesn't trust you *how*?  That you'll run off with someone else?
    That you'll abuse her like "everyone else"?  That you're not really
    the person you "pretend" to be?  What would it take to gain that
    trust?  Would she trust anyone, ever?  Is she just as un-trustworthy
    or does she think she's the only "good" person on the planet?  Should 
    you not trust *her*?  
    
    Just please don't start blaming yourself if she never gets "cured"
    because none of it is your fault.  You can't "save" her, you can
    only love her, do your best, and save yourself.

Wow.  It's tough.  I just wanted to comment on one thing...

You say you hve broken off outside friendships for her.  I will assume (for
lack of further information) that part of her distrust is in the form of
jealousy, and that you broke of your outside relationships to help ease
her jealousy.

Don't do that!  I've been there, and demanded this from men.  (Well, man,
actually.)  It might feel to her like she can't trust you to be with other
people without her there - it is true, she might feel better if you are 
never in that situation.  But simply eliminating the *situation* that
she doesn't trust you in doesn't make her trust you more.  And in the long 
run, there will *always* be situations where you *could* betray her trust,
and she had to learn that you can be in them without betraying her, rather
than you voiding them.

Better instead to slowly work with her to trust you with these outside
relationships - giving them up will only hurt you, and won't help her to
develop trust!

(In my jealousy I demanded that he stop seeing *any* females other than me.
And so I was calmed, and felt everything was settled.  But it meant that
every trip he went on, everywhere he would be exposed to a new situation
with new females, was a threat.  It wasn't until *I* learned to trust him
in the situations that were threatening, rather than forcing him not to be
in them, that I could feel comfortable all the time.)

Good luck!

D!

    Hi,
    
      You could look into Springhill in Ashby.  They do weekends with
    coupls or singles.  It would be a place where she could go and find
    her feelings and let go of some of them.  It might help if she felt
    better about her self.
    
      good luck
    
      Cec

    Let's see now.  A lot of this will be repetition, but...
    
    Can you help?  I think my answer would have to be 'Not directly.'  As
    has been said before, your wife's 'cure' is in her hands, not yours. So
    if effecting a cure is your goal, you are in for a ton of grief.  But
    help can take other forms.  Are you trustworthy?  I suspect that your
    answer is 'yes.'  If you are right and she can learn to trust you, then
    you will have helped.
    
    Speaking as one who finds trust hard to give, I don't encourage to you
    to try to 'win her trust.'  Attempts in this direction have always made
    _me_ very wary.  Just love her. Just be you.
    
    I also second the person[s] who said that giving up your own friends
    and family relationships for her can't really help.  She needs to learn
    and to understand that they take nothing away from her.  Again, this
    cannot be forced -- reassurance from you and time can do this.
    
    I sense your frustration that she turns constantly for love and
    acceptance to the very people who have killed trust in her -- her
    dysfunctional family.  Sadly, this is so common as to be trite.  She
    loves them...or at the very least she desparately _wants_ to love them
    and be loved by them.  If you can reflect for her the goodness she has
    within herself, she may choose to see it and to make the choice to
    self-validate and to live her own life.
    
    To you I can only offer many warm thoughts and the hope that you will
    do what is right for you.  You should not live her pain.  If you can
    accept her in her pain and stay strong in loving and nurturing, you are
    very special indeed.
    
      Ann

    
    
    	I hope maybe from my personal experiences that I have gone threw
    	and still am will be of some help to you.  I don't know if
    	your councelor has discussed this with you but just to let you
    	understand "Why" your wife goes back for more pain is this is
    	a well learned feeling for her.  It is very undersatandable
    	that she is frightened to change to something she knows "Nothing"
    	about.  Even though it hurts her she can deal with that because
    	she has been dealing with it all her life.
    
    	"Trust" is a very strong word and is very important so as
    	to life a healthy and happy life.  This is also one of the most
        hardest to learn if it was taken away and crumbled in your
    	face.  There IS a reason for not trusting.  She may be throughing
    	it a little out of paportion (sp) but there is always a reason
    	for a feeling that a person has.  I agree with some past replys
    	that it is up to her, but you can help by understanding what
   	is going on and learning about feelings.  I would recommend
    	separate conceling and then together.  It is very important
    	that you stay strong and take care of your self and she will
    	learn that from you, but agian she has to want to learn that.
    
    
    	I hope this helped a little.
    
	Zina B