Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    I think I can understand how you feel. This happened to
    me (not a doctor) but someone who was dealing with 
    becoming a manager/going to school for a Master's/and
    we were separated by a 40 mile distance. 
    
    I won't go into the long. long story, but your friend
    sounds like he did. What did I do? 
    
    I was incredibly hurt, still felt he was THE ONE,
    the gist of it was I made a pact with myself NOT 
    to continue to see him. He still contacted me through
    the "system" (we both worked and still work at DEC)
    and I would say about 6 months passed before he
    and I saw each other. At that point I was not sure
    if I wanted too, but I did. 
    
    Several months later I had a very large diamond and 
    had a very large and wonderful wedding! 
    
    I think this man needs some time to figure himself out
    - he sounds confused about how he feels about 
    himself, nevermind you.  I know you probably want to 
    make this work, but YOU can't do this, he needs too. 
    I myself, kept thinking what did I do wrong, too. It
    wasn't me though, and it took me a few months to 
    figure out nothing I did would have prevented  our seperation. 
                                                  
    
    Now the doctor part. Our family has several close friends,
    and although there are struggles, these people have 
    very long and enduring marriages. The key seems to 
    be they have a very good sense of humor and take things
    as they come. They also MAKE the time to relax and 
    enjoy free time. 
    
    Funny, my friend and I have a doctor friend ( I believe 
    he is a resident - he's 30 so maybe an age helps)
    who is dying to meet a nice girl! I really think your
    friend will want this as well, once some pressure 
    is off and he has time to think. 
    
    Take time for you and have some fun - have dinner,
    shop, bike, whatever with your friends - this 
    helps a lot. 
    
    I have a feeling things will work out. I had a 
    very happy ending, and I bet you will too. 
    
    I hope this makes you feel a little better! Now 
    go out and have fun tonight! 
    
    
    

Sarah,

I dated 2 med school students while at Duke Univ, one when I was a
sophomore and the other when I was a senior, and my older brother
was a med school student.  I was able to enjoy the second relationship 
much more from the insights I gained about med students during the first 
relationship, and from talking to my brother about his relationships.  
Here are some things I immediately recall:

As you said, they *are* obsessive students.  Moreover,  they tend to
be cocky about knowing they were among the best and the brightest to
be accepted into the MD program.  This might have bothered me except
they knew I was better at math and sometimes asked for my help in 
chemistry they couldn't recall...  So this tempered them a bit.  So
I guess my first point is : when you're dating a med student, your ego
and self-esteem has to be strong, or you're likely to get crushed by
theirs.

You mentioned that he had just broke up with you in a "very callous
and uncaring way."  Some med students seem to have an emotion switch
which they can turn off to enable them to concentrate on homework,
rotational shifts, etc... It's a neat trick, but can lead to some 
hurt feelings if the other person doesn't know which "mode" the
person is in.   Had you observed any flip-flopish behavior before he 
broke up with you, or was this the first time?  I'm sorry you were hurt
like this.  After dating someone for a year that was probably very
painful.

And there is the ever-present fact that you come second to their
studies.  You're right - the demands on his time will not decrease
much till he graduates (and even then...)
I didn't mind this at the time because I was also very busy
in a curriculum for a double-engineering major.  However, if I
had had more time on my hands, I know I would have resented the
fact that he could not spend more "quality time" with me when I
was willing to give much more.

Sarah, protect yourself. 
If he really made you feel worthless, drop him out of your 
mind like a hot-potatoe (easier said than done, I realize).  
If you think the relationship is worth salvaging, consider how his 
behaviors must be altered so that you would not have these kinds of 
feelings ever again.  Then ask yourself if you see him realistically 
see him being able to make these changes in the *near* future...

I don't know what life after med school is like for the SOs of doctors
- my older brother died his senior year of med school, and I haven't
dated a med student or doctor since.  

Dating is too much fun to spend your time on someone which results
in your having negative feelings about yourself!  What is that
somewhat callous saying -
so many men [who_can_make_you_feel_great],
so little time [so_don't_waste_it_on_more_negative_experiences]...

						nancy b.

    I dated  a  doctor  for a year and she was always there for me. An
    advantage  we  had  was that she's a psychiatrist so there are few
    emergencies  that  she  had to deal with and she had completed her
    residancy. From what I can tell the first year or two of residency
    is  the  worst time, as they have essentially no free time and are
    chronically sleep deprived.

    Many doctors do manage to have reasonable family lives and outside
    interests,  but this is a break from tradition. Until a generation
    ago  doctors  were  not  terribly  well  payed  and  were  on call
    constantly (particularly in small towns). Their practice was their
    life.  When  my  grandfather closed his practice he had no outside
    interests  and  promptly  went into a sharp decline and died. That
    isn't  unusual  for  doctors  of his generation. Now that medicine
    pays  quite well and there are more group practices so doctors get
    some time off many doctors do have outside interests and can spend
    time with their families. Since med schools are run by old timers,
    they  can't  start  spending  time  on anything but medicine until
    after they finish their residencies.  Can you wait that long?

    Incidentally, the highest divorce rates are not among doctors, but
    among  programmers,  air traffic controllers, and dentists. (As of
    about five years ago, and I'm not sure of the order.)

--David

    Before I came to work at DEC, I worked for an Orthopaedic Surgeon as
    his receptionist.  From what I observed, there is no way I would get
    involved with a Dr.  This man, started seeing patients at 7:30am, and
    didn't finish until around 7:00 at night.  From there, he went to the
    hospital to see his patients there.  I know he didn't get home at night
    until after 10:00, probably closer to 11 or 12.  His wife was the
    "Office Manager" and worked all day in the office with him.  In my
    opinion, this was probably the only way she could spend time with him. 
    They had 2 kids, in high school, and they both came directly to the
    office after school to see mom and dad.  I couldn't really see how they
    could have had any quality time with their dad, bewteen patients.  They
    did have an incredible home, that was just beautiful, but the only
    person who really got to enjoy it was the housekeeper, who stayed home
    all day.  
    
    This was just my observation, and the family didn't seem to mind the
    situation at all.  But for myself, there is no way I could live like
    that.
    
    Becky

I'd prefer to meet the person before making a definitive judgment, but----
he sounds like a first-class creep to me.

Ask yourself--if you treated him like he's treated you, what would you think of
yourself?

And if he responded to you the way you've responded to him, would you have any
respect for him?

He doesn't sound like a prize to me, no matter what his profession.

Just my opinion.

Vicki Meagher

    Vicki,
    
    No, he is *not* a "first class creep."  He really is a sweet,
    thoughtful, giving guy.  At least he was for the first five months
    I knew him.  The answers I've had to these notes (here and in Human
    Relations) have helped me to gain alot of perspective on the situation.
    No doubt about it - he did some really lousy things, and acted in
    a basically rotten way for quite a while.  What I'm hearing alot
    of people saying, is that this is absolutely normal for Med students.
    OK - I can accept that - these were all of his worst traits being
    magnified 10 times.  We all have our less desirable traits - I know
    that mine figured into the situation as well.  I also know that
    he has to owe up to the lousier things he did, and have an honest
    desire to change them.  He's allowed to be human - this was his
    first year, and we were both adjusting to alot. 
    
    I do know that if things continue the way they have been, even if
    it is due to the pressures of school, I'm out of this relationship.
    I'll give him some extra room because I know he'll need it, but
    I'm not a martyr.  Even if things improve but not significantly,
    I doubt that I'll be hanging in there for him.  A person can only
    go so far, and I prefer to enjoy my life, thank you.
    
    But, you have to believe me when I say that I truly feel that he's
    a very, very special person.  Whoever ends up with him when the
    major pressure is over is a lucky woman.  I may be wrong, of course.
    These last few months may be a truer picture of what he's like than
    I had before, in which case I'm glad I've discovered it now.  I'm
    not so sure, though.
    
    Basically, I think a person can, and should be forgiving to an extent
    when they've found someone who really seems right for them.  The
    trick is to know when you're just fooling yourself, and your needs
    aren't being met (or won't be in the near future).  I'm at the "give
    it one last try" stage.
    
 
    - Sarah
    
    
    

    Good Luck!
    
    My sister is in her second year residency, and although I
    love/admire/respect her, there is NO WAY I would have tolerated 
    a close relationship with her these past few years.  Besides, never
    being rested, and disregarding everything except school, she spent her 
    rotation years in 5 different states -- moving every 6 weeks.  The
    first year, in comparison to the next 4, was restful.
    
    First, I want to warn you that the arrogance and egotism will 
    increase at incredible rates.  MD's are (in general) ALWAYS right,
    are not to be questioned, and do NOT do trivial things (like
    housework).  This is partially survival training; they must make
    difficult and important decisions -- they can't always be questioning
    their own judgement.
    
    So after these warnings, I have a practical suggestion:  My sister
    had a few summer vacation after the first year, and some "free" 
    rotations; now as a resident, she has 2 months of vacation/year
    (although almost no days off when working).  What is your SO's 
    attitude about free times?  Is he willing to make up for the times
    that you have put everything aside for him?  Does he make you feel 
    important to him?  Does he consider your ideas/opinions/desires?
    Would he take a vacation with you instead of one of his optional
    rotations?   
    
    Again, good luck--
    
    Barbara
    

    
    Sarah,
    You and I have communicated offline--so I didn't feel it necessary
    to add anything in this file.  However, MDs are really getting a
    bad rap here--and if I were you--based on what I've read here--I'd
    dump this guy real fast.
    
    BUT NOT ALL MEDICAL STUDENTS TURN INTO JERKS!  Medical school really
    can change a personality--in fact, medical school is set up to do
    just that.
    
    But it doesn't have to be a permanent change.  There are a lot of
    jerky, insensitive medical students out there.  A good number of
    them will revert back to their former selves once they get away
    from the medical school environment.
    
    A lot of them will turn into good, caring physicians.  A lot of
    them won't be married to their jobs--although their jobs do require
    many more hours than most.  A lot of them will become wonderful
    husbands and fathers.  And they WILL help with the housework.
    
    Signed,
    Married a jerky medical student who is now a wonderful, caring,
    helping, sensitive, terrific husband and father who, by the way,
    without any damage to his "ego," cooks, cleans, changes
    dirty diapers, and does windows.
    
    Also, to the person whose sister had to travel to 6 different states
    to do her rotations--that was by choice, not requirement.  Rotations
    are a requirement. One can choose to do them in the same geographical
    location that one goes to med. school in.  Or, one can travel around
    to do them.  It's up to each individual.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Sarah,
    
    A good friend of mine is newly married to a man who is in his third 
    year of medical school.  She told me recently that if it were not 
    for her efforts, they wouldn't eat properly, they wouldn't see
    friends, they'd never see a movie or play, etc.  She's willing to 
    put out this effort for 2 reasons: #1- he appreciates it and tells 
    and shows her so, #2- he responds to it, and makes time for these 
    activities that are important to her, rather than falling into his 
    books, hospital work, etc. all the time. The point I think is that 
    she does a lot of extra things to make their relationship work because 
    she understands that he is in a stressful, limited-free-time situation.
    But, and this is important, if she didn't feel this was short-term,
    and that he wasn't exerting SOME effort toward the relationship,
    she would be unhappy.  Fundamentally, he seems to be doing pretty
    well in a difficult situation.  He makes her feel loved and
    appreciated, he listens to her ideas, and shares his with her (she's
    a nurse, perhaps that plays a part).  Very importantly, they talk
    about this!  Have you discussed your feelings with your friend?
    Anyway, this went on a bit longer than I meant it to, but what I'm
    trying to say is that if you analyze this and he seems to be
    fundamentally a loving, honest person in a difficult phase, maybe
    you just need to find a way to logistically handle the next few
    years so that you both feel good about it.  If on the other hand,
    you have a nagging doubt that much of his behavior is his core
    personality made obvious under stress, don't ignore it.  Having
    experienced controlling, difficult relationships, and now being
    married to a loving, affectionate, giving man, I am just amazed
    at how much energy is wasted by women on the faults of less loving
    men  --don't get sucked into this.  You deserve a man who loves
    you for who you are, not in spite of what you are, who treasures
    you as you treasure him....
    
    Best of luck to you,
    
    Lynn
    
    

    Sorry to say this, but I'd "hang it up".
    
    First of all, because he doesn't even seem to want to contact you
    until his studies are finished.  Do you want to live your life being
    dictated to?  
    
    Second of all, I dated a OB/GYN for two and a half years, and believe
    me, the demands on a doctor's time are ALWAYS there.  I've also
    spent extensive amounts of time around doctors, either working with
    them or because one of my SO's had a brain tumour, and they LIVE
    their work.  It depends of what field they specialize, but I can
    tell you that neurology and OB/GYN are the WORST as far as quality
    time with a person.
    
    Dating a doctor means lots of compromise and understanding on your
    part.  If the man loves you, he will compromise for you, as well.
     It sounds as though this man doesn't give a damn about your feelings,
    and I doubt if he will change his ways until it's too late.  Don't
    stay with him just because he can offer you "security" for the future.
     Financially, sure, but emotionally, you will be drained.  When
    people break up, they tend to "glamorize" the good parts of the
    relationship to cover the hurt.  Sit down and write a list of the
    good and the bad.  I'll be willing to bet that the bad far outweighs
    the good in the relationship when you get right down to it.  I know,
    because I've done it before.  
    
    I don't mean to sound callous, but it sounds like a *very* unhealthy
    relationship and you can probably do a lot better for yourself!
    
    Good luck -- and Don't give in!
    
    Tammi
    

    A lot of doctors are married; I'd WAG that a fair percentage dated
    those they eventually married while still in medical school.  Hearing
    all of the negatives of seriously dating a doctor/nurse while they are
    in training one would have to wonder how any of them ever got married
    or sustained serious relationships.
    
    I don't believe that there's a lot of difference between a person
    training to be a nurse or a doctor and someone who is completely in
    love with their job or is going to school and wants to get straight A's
    or someone who is just a driven individual.  Sure, there are times when
    these people are simply horrible to be around because you are a
    distant second or third in their lives.  But when things slack off a
    bit, there can be a return to some semblance of normality.  That
    "drive" is simply an aspect of their personality that you have to learn
    to accept.  Its been my observation, though, that things tend to slack
    off considerably after things get settled down a bit and as the person
    gets older.