Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Wow!  That doesn't sound like a "minor" problem at all, that sounds
    pretty major, Virgina!
    
    I would think that if you guys still have the bounced checks, you could
    have the creep up on several different flavors of felony charge. To my
    knowledge, it's a felony to write a phony check (comes under the
    Forgery statute?) and I also seem to remember hearing that in
    Massachusetts it's another sort of felony to not pay for work done.
    
    Have you looked into bringing some criminal charges?
    
    						=maggie 

I think reply .1 is in never-never land. But it looks pretty done.
	Mez
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NSSG::FEINSMITH "I'm the NRA"                         0 lines   8-MAR-1989 12:50
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    What is in the tank? Maybe if you turn the slimeball over to the
    EPA et al (he probably doesn't have all the right permits for hazardous
    chemicals) you can make his life miserable. It won't get your money
    out of him, but the State may be able to mine him big times.
    
    Eric

    re .2
    
    Maggie,
    
    I live in the state of TN and according to their wonderful state
    laws, we have to be able to PROVE that when he wrote these checks
    that he did not have the money in the bank.  All he would have to
    say is "Gee, my accountant made an error and I thought I had the
    money in the bank."  Some hell of a law, huh?
    
    
    re .4
    
    Eric,
    
    There's nothing in the tank now, but the EPA head official is who
    this guy supposedly had something on, that's how he got his license.
    That's something else, right before my husband quit, he was almost
    out of chemicals to spray with.  My husband told him the day before
    he quit that he didn't have much left in his tank to spray with.
    The guy told him to use "WATER" if he ran out, because they did
    it all the time when they ran out of chemicals.  My husband thought
    he was kidding at first, but then realized he wasn't.  
    
    It seems like everything we think of to try and do to him, he's
    got it covered some way.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Virginia

    I understand about just claiming that the bouncing checks were
    a mistake.  Have you considered suppoenaing the accountant?  Or
    the accountant's records?  Actually, since fraud is a criminal
    charge, the D.A. would get to do that.  Chat with the nice policeman
    who said "Not him again!" and see what he says.
    
    The tank is not empty, really; it has residues in it, especially
    around the nozzles.  Is there a college nearby where they would
    enjoy that sort of testing?  An argricultural college would be
    ideal.  Or find out where an EPA testing lab is.  You would be
    amazed at how little the right hand knows about what the left hand
    is doing.
    
    Oh, yeah.  Ask the Feds if the fellow withheld your husband's
    F.I.C.A..
    
    						Ann B.

    <--(.5)
    
    Would "Gee, my accountant made an error" work for *all* the bounced
    checks?  I should think the excuse could wear thin for, what, 4?
    checks.
    
    Win lose or draw tho, it really sounds rotten!  The clown sounds like
    living proof that  even e. coli can make something disgusting of
    themselves if y'let enough of them collect in one spot.

    If this guy really has a track record of this sort of thing, the
    "my accountant made an error" type excuse won't hold up.  It will
    be obvious that this guy really is a bad check artist, just the
    kind that the laws are written for.  Chat with the nice policeman,
    and maybe that other lawyer who told you you'd have a hard time
    collecting from "him".  Another idea would be to place an ad in
    the newspaper to try to find other people he's swindled this way.
    The more people that have had this experience will show more clearly
    that this is his mode of operation - not just a one time mistake.
    
    The DA can subpoena the records of his accountant and his bank
    to show deliberate intent of his fraudulent check writing.  
    
    Please follow .6's suggestion to find out what happened to the FICA and
    IRS withholding money he withheld from your husband's check. Failure to
    properly turn the funds over to the federal government is TAX FRAUD,
    another criminal offense, which the Federal government doesn't take
    lightly.  If he didn't withhold such funds, that is also a Federal
    offense.
    
    Good luck.  I hope you can find a way to put this guy behind bars.
    
    Elizabeth 

    re .6
    
    Ann,
    
    I forgot to mention the accountant is his daughter, the General
    Manager is an old friend, one of the sprayers is his son, the other
    one is his sons best friend, the secretary is his girl friend (who
    is also my husband's step sister), the only ones left are phone
    soliciters (small company) and they are mostly teenagers and friends
    of his kids.  All in all, any given one of them would lie under
    oath (I'm sure).  As far as the F.I.C.A. my husband was hired as
    a sub-contractor, but guaranteed 40 hours a week.  Therefore, they
    don't have to take out taxes or social security.  Like, I said,
    this guy has got himself covered back and front.
    
    .7
    
    I guess saying, "gee, etc" would work for all of the checks if he
    said it was a "MAJOR" error.  My attorney just didn't feel very
    confident that we could PROVE this.  See, by the time we even found
    out the first check was bad, we had already deposited two more checks
    into our account and had wrote checks on all three of the deposited
    checks.  I was very upset that my bank hadn't notified us earlier,
    but they said they were required to send it to his bank three times
    and then notify us if it bounced all three times.  The fourth check
    he never even got, we may never get it, because we don't have any
    proof that he worked that week.  We're hoping the judge will see
    what a sleaze bag he is and believe us.  If not, we may just be
    out of luck on that check.
    
    re .8
    
    Is it legal to run an ad like that?  I mean, couldn't we get it
    for being slanderous?  It's worth a thought, though.  Would General
    Sessions court listen to someone else?  I'm not sure how the legal
    system works.
    
    Thanks

    stubs). Even as a contractor he has to keep books on what he paid
    out and it better agree for tax purposes, the tax people _do_ audit
    if they smell a fish. You have to tell them what to look for.  In
    the case of a general or subcontractor leverage is the best position,
    give nothing back until after speaking to your attorney.

For that matter, the IRS does pay a bounty for tax cheats. You might also
see if the policeman who said "not him again" will sit down with you
when he's off duty.

If the contractor's accountant is a licensed CPA, you might talk to the board
of registry (or whatever it's called): perhaps the contractor's books
need to be independently audited.

If the contractor did spray water instead of pesticide, the homeowners
also may have a claim.   (A good lab will can distinguish between
pesticide residude and water residude.)

Good luck.

Martin.

.8 suggested:

>    collecting from "him".  Another idea would be to place an ad in
>    the newspaper to try to find other people he's swindled this way.
>    The more people that have had this experience will show more clearly
>    that this is his mode of operation - not just a one time mistake.
    
.9
    
>    Is it legal to run an ad like that?  I mean, couldn't we get it
>    for being slanderous?  It's worth a thought, though.  Would General
>    Sessions court listen to someone else?  I'm not sure how the legal
>    system works.
    

i think the suggestion about trying to round up other people with 
bad experiences with this person is a good idea.   however, as .9 
implies, you should probably be careful about the wording.

i would think that an ad looking for people having had business
dealings with this guy would be pretty innocuous.  about the 
specific wording, isn't that something your lawyer can help with? 
and where is she/he with suggestions?

    Since the police do know about this person you may be able to get
    the district attorney to press criminal charges on what this person
    (company) has done to your SO.  If the charges stick and he is
    convicted in criminal court where guilt needs to be proven beyond
    a reasonable doubt, then it should be fairly easy to sue him in
    civil court where guilt only needs to be proven by the preponderance
    of the evidence.  
    
    FYI - double jeapordy doesn't count here, he would be tried twice
    for the same thing, this is true, but it would be in different courts.
    
    Caveats - I'm not a lawyer nor pretending to be one, but I just
    happen to be taking a business law course this semester.  Consult
    a real lawyer.  
    
    			Bb

    Well, since your husband's stepsister is working there, have her
    check on *her* FICA.  And since the accountant is a "kid", perhaps
    the stepsister can casually say something that will provoke a
    revealing outburst:
    
    	"Gee, since you're not an Officer of the Corporation, I hope
    	that doesn't make you personally liable for the bad checks
    	you wrote."
    	"*I* wrote!  No way!  Papa's the one who decides whether to
    	use the real account or the empty one!"
    
    				or
    
    	"Is the amount of FICA the company pays the Feds as its share
    	the same as I pay and you withhold?"�
    	"I don't know."
    
    				or
    
    	"I'll bet your father yells at you a lot [too] when you write
    	a check that bounces."
    	"Oh, no!"
    
    If your stepsister-in-law has any bent for the theatrical, she
    could have a good time.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    � It's hard to express, but the amount of FICA you see withheld
    should only be half the FICA the government gets on your behalf.

My husband's stepsister isn't trying to help us.  We figured out a long
    time ago that she was feeding us a bunch of bull.  She told us that
    our court date had been changed and I told her until we heard from
    the court that the date had been changed that we'd be there on the
    day we had last heard from the court.  She's a real bitch (among
    other things).  BTW, I found out Friday that our next court date
    is on my husband's birthday.  Ain't that a bitch?  Our first court
    date was on our anniversary.  I swear, we live by Murphy's
    law...anything that can go wrong, will!!

I'm posting this reply anonymously for a member of the community who got the
information from another person at DEC, who wants to remain anonymous (the
person who had this experience).
	Mez


This is watered down a little to protect the person that 
experienced this. It is not to lay blame on the parties
involved, but to warn others of what can happen when you
make statements in notes files. The situation below happened
due to a statement made in a DEC. notes file.


She was tryng to get her deposit back from a house purchase 
that fell through due to a problem with the property. The sellers
their dragged feet in returning her deposit. She sued for breaking 
the contract (there was an inspection clause which stated a full 
return of her deposit if any problems were found). She made the 
mistake of calling the owner / seller a "slime" in one  of the 
Dec notes files. Some one from Dec. who knew the sellers 
extracted her note and gave it to them. The seller counter-sued 
for libel. It was finally settled out of court with part of the 
condition that she had to put in the notes file a retraction, 
which was as written by the seller.

> Some one from Dec. who knew the sellers 
>extracted her note and gave it to them. 

 Isn't this against company policy? I thought that notes were DEC internal use
only. As such, the person guilty of providing the person with said extraction
ought to have been terminated (IMHO).

 The Doctah

    
    Since the notesfiles are for internal user only, wouldn't the person
    who extracted the note and gave it to the seller be open to some
    rather stern measures?
    
    Roberta

    in re .18 and .19 The point that Mez is making, is that you should
    not make defamitory remarks about identifiable individuals in the
    notes file. Even if a person were repremanded for extracting the
    note, you would be in a far worse case if a court trial using your
    note as evidence were to go against you.
    
    Bonnie

    Anyway.
    
    Getting right back to .0:
    
    So three checks bounced.  If (once in court) the defendant wants
    to suggest that it was all an accident, have your husband do his
    best Clarance Darrow act and say, "Waal [well], according to Army
    [or Navy] Intelligence, `Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence,
    but three times is enemy action.', Your Honor."
    
    							Ann B.

    re -1
    
    Ann,
    
    I love it!!!  I'm not sure if the judge would, but I do!!!  
    
    re: others
    
    I don't work at the plant, I'm way down south in a little 120 person
    office and most of the people here know what's going on anyway.
    If I were in a bigger office, I would be more careful, but considering
    the circumstances, I'm not too concerned with that happening.  Also,
    most of the people I know don't associate with people like him anyways.
    

    Here's another idea....
    
    In Massachusetts, some local tv stations and newspapers have
    investigative teams and consumer advocacy people, people who take
    on the cause of someone like yourself getting no response out of
    shady business practices or uncaring bureaucracies.
    
    Do you have any similar people down there who could champion your
    cause, spread it on the local news?  I'm sure you would get a much
    better response if the others started getting lots of free advertising.
    
    jonathan

    re: .22
    
    I am not sure I have this straight...if I am misinterpreting what
    you are saying here, please forgive me (and forget what i am about
    to say). What I understand you to be saying is that you work in
    a tiny office and everyone knows what's going on, and you trust
    them, so there'd be no problem with the "wrong" person seeing your
    notes. Well, think for just a moment. Notes reaches almost everywhere
    in the company. There's no way you can guarantee that what you are
    saying isn't reaching the "wrong" person. Just be careful. I'd hate
    to hear that you lost your case for this reason.
    
    -Amy.