Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    	74% of American teenage girls do not intend to keep their
    	names when they marry.
    
    		(PUBLIC OPINION, November/December 1987)
    
    	- Greg

    FYI, after I married, I made my legal name "Jane Bullock Crocitto"
    (keeping my old last name as a middle name).  After being "Jane
    Bullock" for so many years, I wanted the best of both worlds!
    
    Jane

    if you'd like some anecdotal evidence, there are several notes in
    =wn Vol. 1 (and maybe one or two in Vol 2) about this. perhaps our
    noted archivist <grin> could point us to the appropriate topic numbers.
    
    
    liz

true confessions time: I scan the announcements in the Glob in hopes of
noticing an upward trend in the women retaining their last name (yes; I want
more women to be just like me :-). It's a pretty low percentage. Maybe you
could generate some spotlight figures with a month (like June) in '88, and one
in, say '68.
	Mez

    well, yes, i've done the same scanning and had the same dashed hopes,
    but i think we should ask ourselves this: does the boston globe
    provide a varied-enough sample? do people who announce their
    engagements or weddings there tend to be the same people who change
    their original names when they get married? i mean, i didn't change
    my name when i got married and i also didn't announce my wedding
    in the globe, but then again, that brief poll has had a sample size
    of 1.
    
    liz

    
    There is definitely a note about this issue in v.2, fairly early
    on in the file. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Gotta go back to
    work now.
    
    Roberta
    

    I scan the papers as well - and out of all of the papers I've looked at
    the Boston Globe seems to have the highest percentage of women who keep
    their own name.  The women who do keep their names, generally seem to
    be professionals with a high percentage of them being doctors. Again,
    this isn't an official statistic, just something I've noticed from my
    scanning.  I guess I'm looking for more people like myself too! In the
    New Hampshire papers however, I've only seen one other person besides
    myself, keep their own name.
    
    Suzanne Poirier 

    For more discussion on the topic, also see
    
    Womannotes V1, topics 9 and 407
    
    Womannotes V2, topic 180
    
    -Jody
    

    JUST AN FYI -
    
    	My sister retained her original last name following
    	her marriage - which essentially, did not pose a problem.
    	However, when their first child was born, the question
    	was "Who's last name does it get?" 
    
    	This ended up being a REALLY tough question, so they finally
        settled on this rule:
    
    		My sister got to choose the first & middle name,
    	 	and the baby got my brother-in-law's last name legally.
    
    	I guess if you plan on not changing your name, the real
        confusion will be on the legal name of the children.
    
        Either way, the above worked out fine in their case.
    
    
    
    			

re .9
    
>    	My sister retained her original last name following
>    	her marriage - which essentially, did not pose a problem.
>    	However, when their first child was born, the question
>    	was "Who's last name does it get?" 
    
    I know a woman who kept her last name when she married.  Her
    daughters got their mother's last name, her son got his
    father's last name.  I liked it--seemed symmetrical somehow.

    -- Linda

    In Quebec,  the government (which runs the health service) finally
    got tired of women changing their names when they got married, and
    again  when  they  got divorced, so now everyone keeps the name he
    was  born  with.  Socially  you can use any name you want, but for
    dealing with the govenrment, legally you have only one name.

    In answer to the question in .11, it depends what state you're in.
    In  Mass,  there  is a place on the marriage license for what each
    spouse's  name  was  before  the  marriage,  and  what  it will be
    afterwards. Either or both may change. Other states allow only the
    woman  to  change  her name, and I think some states still require
    the woman to take the man's name. If the state is a pain about it,
    changing   your  name  legally  is  a  nuisance,  but  not  really
    difficult. 

--David

    Speaking of a man changing "his" last name - I once a professor
    who did exactly that. His last name was "Archibald" and her
    last name was "Seiffer". This is how they worked it:
    
    	For her		new last name  "Seiffer-Archibald"
    	For him		new last name  "Archibald-Seiffer"
    
    Personally speaking, they should have thrown both in the hat
    and picked whichever came up first!
    
    

    Problem:
    
    What if Mr Smith and Ms Jones had a child, gave him the last name
    Smith-Jones, and Mr Black and Ms White gave their daughter the name
    Black-White, and these two grow up, marry, and have a child, what
    are they going to name him/her?  Smith-Jones-Black-White?
    
    There is something to be said for simplicity.  Always keep an eye
    to the future.
    
    K.C.

>        What if Mr Smith and Ms Jones had a child, gave him the last name
>    Smith-Jones, and Mr Black and Ms White gave their daughter the name
>    Black-White, and these two grow up, marry, and have a child, what
>    are they going to name him/her?  Smith-Jones-Black-White?

 
    Someone once explaine in another note with a similar topic, an easy
    way to solve this dilema. 
    
    Mr Smith and Ms Jones have a child and give him the last name
    
          Smith-Jones (where Smith is Male and Jones is Female)
    
    Mr Black and Ms White give their daughter the name          
    
          Black-white (where Black is M and White is F)
    
    When Smith-Jones and Black-White marry, they each retain part of
    their heritage and name by keeping their gender name (M or F)
    
    So Mr Smith-Jones becomes Mr. Smith-White (taking on his wife's female
    name White).  His name reflects the relationship with his parents
    and his wife.
    
    And Ms Black-White becomes  Ms. White-Smith (or Smith-White)
    (taking on her husband's male name Smith).  her name reflects the
    relationship with her parents (specifically to her mother) and her
    husband.
            
    Now their childrens names are White-Smith, showing the relationship
    to both parents and grandparent and so on.
    
    This way, historians can always keep track of someones roots through
    at least one of their names.  I think I've made this more complicated
    than it really is.  The woman who originally explained made it much
    more simple than this.
    

    when i got married, a few people tried to ridicule me into changing
    my name by saying "but what will you name your children?". to me,
    it didn't really matter what the kids' names were; the point was
    that i'd grown up identifying myself as liz augustine and i wanted
    to stay that way -- but i had no emotional investment in how my
    offspring would be named. the point's kind of moot now, but for
    the record, all the cats got _his_ last name (it takes less effort
    to spell).
    
    liz

>        when i got married, a few people tried to ridicule me into changing
>    my name by saying "but what will you name your children?". to me,
>    it didn't really matter what the kids' names were; the point was
>    that i'd grown up identifying myself as liz augustine and i wanted
 
    I've gotten the same thing - "What will you name your kids?"
    None of your business.  "What's your name anyway?"  "You didn't
    change your name, I though that was illegal?" "What a rebel!"
    etc ad nauseum.
    
    My father-in-law still sends packages to "THE HUKILLs" - I keep telling
    him there is only one Hukill in our household, so he should hold off
    the plural, but he does it just to get to me!
     

    Re .10, I like that idea the best.  The woman keeps her own last
    name, and if she has a daughter, the daughter gets her last name.
     If she has a son, he can have the father's last name.
    
    When I married my ex-husband 16 yrs. ago, I took his last name without
    even questioning it.  I just accepted that that's the way it was
    done.  You get married, you take his last name.  It even seemed
    exciting at the time.  But, now when I think of the tradition of
    the woman taking the man's last name, it seems like an insult to
    women.  Why should all these little families all have the daddy's
    last name?  (A world of little households headed by men.  It's enough
    to make a person puke.)  Strange how my thinking has changed over the years.

    Lorna
    

    Laws requring a woman to change her name when she gets married have
    been struck down as discriminatory by the U.S. Supreme Court. The
    laws still are on the books in some states, although they are
    non-enforceable.
    
    Anybody can call themselves by any name they want, in all 50 states
    (unless this is done for criminal intent). You can enter the name
    you want to call yourself on a marriage certificate, real estate
    transaction, loan application, etc. Two people getting married can
    even pick a new last name to call themselves.      
                                                       
    You can still be pressured by banks, etc., to enter some other name,
    but if you persist, they *must* let you call yourself what you want, If
    you are denied credit or whatever because the bank does not want to
    accept your chosen name, you will have excellent grounds for a
    succesful lawsuit. 
         
    You still have to enter your correct social security number, however
    (%-{ .
         
    Bruce

    RE: .11             
                            
    I've mentioned this in =WN= before, but ...
                        
    My husband took my last name when we married.  It was his idea and
    decision, 'though I must admit I was pleased!  Some of his family were
    definitely not impressed, but certainly haven't held it against me. 
                                                               
    Regarding the legality -- he changed his name legally in England. This
    involved drawing up a very specifically worded document and signing it
    in front of witnesses.  You can take any name you want there, provided
    your intent is not to defraud.  I believe the same is true in most of
    the States. 
         
    Helen                 

    Re .15
    
    Thank you.  Since you explained it that way (and it was perfectly
    clear, after a 2nd reading) I like it.  The historian tracing bit
    and all.
    
    My thing is, I LIKE my husband's last name better than mine.  And
    one other problem.  My brother has a wife with the same first name
    as mine, so when I got married, there became only one Karen
    Coutermarsh again.  The only thing that I kept was the C.  (OK, so 
    now you know what K.C. stands for!)  And if (Heaven forbid) my hub
    and I should split, I would keep the last name because I like it.
    My sister did similar.
    
    Thank you for the clarification.
    
    K.C. Fahel

    Re .21, when my ex and I split, I kept his last name because I like
    it a lot more than my maiden name, too.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.21
    
    Of course, there's a big difference between your taking your
    husband's name because you prefer his name than because it's
    "tradition".
    
    re:.19
    
    At least one person here (who hasn't been heard from in a while
    -- Bonnie Randall) mentioned having been given *lots* of grief
    from the IRS (i.e. they wouldn't accept her return) for not using
    her husband's name on her tax return. Does the Supreme Court
    ruling not affect the Federal Government?
    
    --- jerry

    on the i.r.s.: apparently, the irs has a _very_ hard time if the
    wife's name is listed first, but can easily handle returns where
    the husband's name is listed first.
    
    liz

    
    We had problems with the IRS around '76 - Jan does the taxes, so of
    course she signed where it says "preparer" and I signed where it
    says "spouse."  The IRS later claimed that we hadn't filed, and had
    to retrieve the information using Jan's SSN as the key.  The ironic
    part?  Jan worked for the IRS at the time...  A lot of the gov't
    systems are old and creaky and were designed by "traditional" males.
    
    Ron

    There is also a difference between a regulation and a law. It's
    a fuzzy distinction at times. Being told by the IRS that a form
    must be filled out in such and such an order is different than a
    law which says "You SHALL fill out the form in such and an order."
    
    As an aside, we once sent in a magazine subscription for "Bruce and
    Joy Sloane." The magazine entered our name as "Bruce-Joy Sloane."
    We get mail from them which starts off, "Dear Bruce-Joy Sloane,".
    (Maybe that's another solution to whose name do you take. I'll enter
    our next subscription as "Joy-Bruce Louis.")
          
    Bruce
                         
    

    Consider the phrase (usually) spoken by the man in a relationship:
    
    	"Will you marry me?"
    
    And the woman (usually) takes on the man's last name.
    
    Perhaps if the woman asked the question, the man would take the woman's
    last name?!?!
    
    
    With all of the women's liberation, do most women still wait for the
    man to ask that question?  Should the question really be "Shall we get
    married?"  which doesn't imply one-sidedness of the act?
    
    --Sharon
    
    

    I wonder when the day will come when someone will write an article
    about people changing their names when they get married?
    
    
    We took each other's last names, and we both ended up Licea-Kane.
    We were William W. Kane, Jr. and Erica Licea.
    
    
    Basically, each of us changed our name the same way, starting
    with the Social Security Card, and working the rest of the way
    out.  Biggest no-problem problem was the hassles I got whenever
    I gave blood for about three years.  Biggest problem problem was
    when all the hyphens were deleted from the Personell Master File
    a few years ago.  (Way back in the olden days, when Soapbox
    was first started.)  Social Security would send me an card to fill
    out every year, since the name that Digital supplied to them
    "Licea Kane" didn't match their records "Licea-Kane".
    
    
    On children.  Erica still wants our children to have the name
    Kane, I still want them to have our name, Licea-Kane.  I'll let
    you know who prevails someday, maybe.
    
    
    As to "Smith-Jones-Licea-Kane", we had come up with a system
    that we thought was rational.  On marriage, the daughter would
    keep the mother's original name and the son would keep the
    father's original name.  That way the names would propogate
    through the generations with just about equal frequency.  The
    only question we really had was who's name should come first.
    Tougher question than it at first blush appears.
    
    In the end, tomorrow's children will have the choices, just as we
    did.  Who are we to dictate what their choices should be?
    
    								-mr. bill

>    With all of the women's liberation, do most women still wait for the
>    man to ask that question?  Should the question really be "Shall we get
>    married?"  which doesn't imply one-sidedness of the act?

Neither of us asked, we just did.  That solved everything.

Ln    
    

    I kept my own name after marriage.  My husband's last name
    is Kramer.  We had a son seven months ago, his last name
    is Dudley-Kramer.  My husband was against the hyphenated
    last name but I prevailed.  Mostly because he couldn't 
    think of a logical, rational reason why, after enduring
    nine months of pregnancy and 8 hours of labor, he 
    *shouldn't* have my name too.  I didn't want it as a
    middle name because middle names get 'lost', wittled
    down to an initial.
    
    I get lots of raised eyebrows, rolled eyes, and subtle
    disapproval over my son's last name.  And there are people
    who do not accept that I kept my own name after marriage and
    address things to Mrs. Kramer.  
    
    As for the IRS, they seemed to have no problem with two
    last names.  Last year was our first filing jointly.
    
    Donna

    I never had a middle name.  So when I got married, I got
    my maiden name to be my legal middle name.  My full name
    is Anna Ostiguy Bogart.  
    
    Bogart is an easier name, I thought for other people to 
    pronounce and spell.  I'm sick of the way my maiden name
    was abused by people who never learned the art of "sounding
    out" words.  But would you believe, Bogart, is trouble to
    alot of people.  The most common error is, Bogard.
    
    Anna
    

                            
    re .-1:
    
    Just out of purely self-indulgent curiosity, how IS Ostiguy pronounced?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Roberta

The important thing is that women (and men) now have a choice about what to
do with thier names when they get married. Several people have mentioned
grief they have gotten becuase they kept thier own name when they married.

I have gotten some grief from women friends because I did change my name. (I
also made my maiden name my middle name). I have had comments about giving
up my identity, being traditional etc. The fact is I thought seriously
about it and made a choice. My wish to share a last name with my husband
was more important than the other issues. (He understandably did not want
to take the name Nixon, and neither of us wanted to hyphenate.) 

I  mention this because I get tired of some assumptions that a women who takes
her husband last name is somehow "less of  a feminist".

Muggsie

    This is my second marriage and I have a hyphanated last name.  The
    first time around I didn't change my name and the grief I got was
    amazing.  One comment was that I sounded like I was married to my
    father!  But I lived through it.  Now that I've added my husband's
    name to mine (I tried to convince him that we should both take his
    mother's maiden name) I have gotten all kinds of grief of the sort
    that Muggsie described.  I think the gist is that now I'm politically
    incorrect.  The bottom line for me is that it's my choice and for
    some reason whatever one does, someone is sure to be offended so
    I might as well please myself.    
    
    Dondi

    
    I agree with .34.
    
    I also got comments from female friends who had not changed their names 
    on marriage. "You are a professional person, you are known by your single 
    name, why are you changing?"
    
    I had a very simple answer - Marsh is simpler to spell than Whittaker,
    and I'd had enough of having my name mis-spelt. It once took my car
    insurance company 3 attempts to get it right.
    
    I even made life simple for my system manager - my husband had moved to
    another group, so I took over his old account!!
    
    I have an old school friend who married right after college and kept
    her single name as there were no males left in her family to carry on
    the name. Last year she had a son - who has, you've guessed it, her
    husband's surname!!
    
                    seals
    

    re. .33   Roberta
    
    It's pronounced,  OS (as in 'os'trich); TI (as in 'ti'ger); GUY (as
    in opposite of GAL)...
    
    Anna
    

    Which syllable is accented, Anna?  OStiguy, osTIguy, or ostiGUY? (And
    what nationality is it?  Normally I have no problem sorting out the
    ethnicity, but yours I can't figure out at all!)
    
    						=maggie 

    
    Thanks, that's what I thought. Is it on the first syllable?
    
    Roberta

    Maggie,
    
    The accent is on the "OS"tiguy.  The name is french canadian.  The
    GUY part is pronounced guy by Americans, but the correct french
    pronouncation is GEE (like is geese).  Half my family feels it 
    should be the American why, the other half feels it should stay
    the french way.  I don't particularly care, as long as it's not
    Ostrich.
    
    Anna
    

    I chose to hyphenate my name when I got married, partially
    due to the fact that the names "mesh" well together
    (Hanley-Scott) and also because I wanted to retain some
    of my family-ness.
    
    I have gone through all sorts of grief with various organizations
    including Social Security, who issued my new card as 
    Hanley Scott (no hyphen).  Moreover, I am constantly amazed
    at the number of people who don't understand hyphenated names
    and ask me questions such as "Is Hanley your first name or last?"
    and "Why did you do this?"
    
    Two of my sisters have kept their maiden names upon marriage and
    my mother continues to ignore that fact -- sending mail to the
    Smiths, etc. 
    
    

    I'm the originator of this note.  Thank you all for your input.
    My article will be in the June issue of _New England Bride_ magazine.
                                                               
    Re: "what's legal."  In every U.S. state, you can use whatever name you
    want, provided it's not for shady purposes.  In Massachusetts, whatever
    name you put on your marriage license is then your legal name (whether
    you're a man or woman).  In some other states, it's not as simple,
    but it _is_ your choice.           
                                       
    As Dave mentioned, in Quebec, your birth name remains your legal
    name.  One of the women I interviewed for the article (a Digit)
    lives in the U.S., but is originally from Quebec.  That is one of
    the reasons she continues to use her "maiden" name.
                                       
    Re the "what happens when you have children and they get married?"
    rathole.  There always seems to be an assumption that "hypenators
    breed hyphenators"...who also marry hyphenators.  (eg., If you're
    Smith-Jones, you're child will marry Black-White and become
    Smith-Jones-Black-White.)                  
                                   
    Don't worry about it!  Your child and his/her intended will have the 
    same choices you did: adopt one or the other last name, keep separate 
    last names, combine their last names (maybe Jones-White or Blacksmith), 
    or use a totally different name altogether (eg., Grey)!  No biggie.
    
    -Tracy