Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Could you explain your #2 remark?  I am not sure that I understand
    what you mean when you say...
    > ...that ANY women could publicly espouse the view that women
         might "someday" be able to participate in group endeavors.
    
    Do you mean that women *don't now* participate in group endeavors?
   
    And on the #3 remark, I am inclined to think that for most men,
    a platonic friendship is certainly the norm, but an intimate one
    is actually rare.  Intimacy requires one to be vulnerable and open,
    and to let down one's guard.  It is not a sign of intimacy to tell
    your salary to another---it is much more on the plane of intimacy
    to trust another enough to discuss one's feelings concerning 
    how that job is performed and viewed from an emotional
    and perhaps moral aspect aside from the actual work being performed.
    
    Most men that I know have their friendships over things---cars,
    games, "toys", and activities.  Women seem to bring much more
    personal depth to their friendships.  
    
    On the "triangle friendship" point.  I was just thinking about
    a 40 odd year friendship I have with someone.  She and I share
    a very special and deep bond---but she also shares an equally
    deep bonding with several other women that I know, but no longer
    am close to. (they in Ga. I in NH)  And no, I don't think any
    of us are jealous of this pivotal person's position in our
    lives when she is with the other/s.
    
    Marilyn

    re.2 [my guess]
    
    When I read Bob's question #2 '...ANY woman might "someday" be able...'
    I formed the impression that Bob thought most of the folks here
    in =wn= would laugh the author on Oprah's show to scorn as women
    are _ALREADY_ able to participate in groups effectively and happily.
    
    re.0
    
    I caught the tail end of the show myself.  I found the author mildly
    offensive talking about women as a large group.  Certainly the women
    on the show had big-time problems with jealousy, and what she said
    had validity applied to those sorts of situations.
    
    Personally, I never felt jealous of my friends having friends. 
    I _did_ feel insecure if a pattern of leaving me out of things
    occurred, but that's not the same thing at all.
    
    Why did you specifically mention women in business?  I know that
    those are the types most likely to answer you here, but the qualifier
    doesn't seem to be necessary.  It is a legitimate question, not
    calling you to task.
    
      Ann    
    

    I've never had any really close 3-way female friendships.  I've
    had 5 very close female friends for some time, but none of them
    are friends with each other.  When I started to become close friends
    with one of the 5, we worked together, and she was also close friends
    with another woman who worked with us.  The other woman and I were
    friendly and a few times the 3 of us did things together, but most
    of the time it was me and my friend, or my friend and her other
    friend.  Sometimes this happens naturally as different friends can
    fulfill different needs for us, have different interests in common,
    different topics to have sympathetic discussions about, etc.  One
    time, though, my friend in referring to her other friend said, "I
    think X is jealous when I do things with you."  My reaction, at
    the time, tended to be, I don't see why.  It's not like we were
    boyfriends or anything.  It's not like I was trying to steal her
    lover or anything.  We're all straight women and were all 3 married
    at the time.  I find it kind of puzzling.
    
    Another time when I was a lot younger I tried to get two girlfriends
    together and form a 3-way friendship thinking the more the merrier,
    but it didn't work out.  Even though I liked them both, they didn't
    seem to like each other much, and one of them actually accused me
    "you like Nancy better than me", which I found kind of mind boggling.
    
    I do think women friends tend to talk more about their feelings
    with each other than men do, from what I can tell.  I *know* how
    all my closest women friends feel about the current men in their
    lives, and many of their past relationships.  We've discussed these
    feelings in depth, and puzzled over why the various men did such
    and such, and what we liked and didn't like about the relationships.
     But, whenever I ask a male friend or boyfriend a questions about
    how some guy he knows feels about a woman, or what attracted one
    of his friends to his wife, or if they're still happily married
    - it seems that my male friend or boyfriends will say something
    like, "I *don't* know.  We don't talk about that stuff."
    
    I've had a few male friends who have said they like to talk to me
    because they can talk to me about things they can't talk to their
    male friends about.
    
   Lorna
    

    From personal experience:
    
    I feel that there is some truth in the "triangle" concept.  I currently
    have several female friends who have openly told me that they feel
    that our friendship is threatened by my close friendship with my
    other female friends - even acquaintances.  Strangely enough, they
    have no such feelings toward any male friends that I have.
    
    I think that this is an expression of personal insecurity.  These
    women are basically insecure, have few close friends, and are not
    very extroverted.  I let them know that my friendship w/ "x" has
    nothing to do with my friendship w/ them - 2 different people, both
    w/ lots to offer me friendshipwise.  They said they understood but
    still pose questions such as, "So I heard you and "x" had a great
    time this weekend..."
    
    If there is some truth to this concept, I think it is insecurity
    raising its ugly head rather than jealousy.
    
    Cath.

    I see  several  differences  in  the  way  men and women deal with
    friendship.  The most obvious is that most men seem unable to form
    intimate  friendships  with  other men. That is: friendships where
    they  can  discuss  how they feel about some issue. All but one of
    the  friends  with whom I routinely discussed feelings were women,
    and  the  exception that proves the rule was gay. Men also seem to
    have  conversations verging on intimacy only while doing something
    else,  so  they  can  always immerse themselves in the activity to
    avoid a touchy subject. The most graphic example of this I've seen
    was  when  I was bicycling with a very close friend, talking about
    the  woman he was dating and he suddenly gave me the "I don't have
    the  breath  to  talk  because  I have to pedal hard on this hill"
    look.  OK,  but we were going *downhill*. It must have been a very
    sensitive point.

    The other  major difference is that my male friends seem much more
    interested  in  getting  together in small groups, while my female
    friends  prefer  two.  In  college  I  was part of a group of four
    (called  the  three muskateers of course) who almost never all got
    together  at  once except to play pinball. But every week at least
    one  subset  got  together  to  do  something. I never noticed any
    jealousy  in  the group. I haven't seen such a group with women in
    it.

--David

    Re: Point #2 ... I think i caused some confusion with my "misspelling"
    of womAn with womEn. The Author hoped ".. that someday ..". In a
    sense, it seemed that the author was ".milking her crowd", in that
    she wants to sell more books, therefore more women need to understand
    her book. And with a 5 - 6 pm timefrrame I suspect most working
    women are left out.
    
    I strongly diasagree on the issue of mens ability to communicate
    intimate details with other men, and I chose not too raise that
    issue here since its already been discussed to death in another
    file (possibly now archived).
    
    My intent is to learn more about how women feel about other women
    in mutual friendships, and possibly gain some insight into how they
    discuss being jealous. I agree that jealousy is probably triggered
    by feelings of insecurity. Through the "miracle" of VCR,I'm able
    to get some of Oprah's Shows, and seriously wondered why she would
    spend so much time on this <topic>. 
    
    Bob
    
    

    Oprah just picked a boring story....happens even to the great ones!
    
    I don't recall ever seeing jealousy between my women friends and I've
    known several tri-relationships.  (that sounds funny)
    

I can relate to the jealosy in tri-angle friendships from when I was in high
school. I had two friends Melinda and Andrea, in a sense we were a threesome.
But it was always two best friends + 1. The two best friends changed so
that for some period of time I was best friends with each of them, and they
to each other. It was silly really, but I know at the time I felt jealosy
when I felt left out, and I am sure they did too. It somehow went back to
the idea that you had one "very best" friend which was exclusive.

As I have grown older I have developed several close women friends, and I no
longer think in terms of one best friend. I no longer get jealous over other
women being friends. It seems incredibly silly now, but I imagine it does
happen - if people think about friendships the way I did in high school.

Muggsie
    

    Re .9, my daughter is a freshman in high school.  Ever since
    kindergarten her two closest friends have been twin girls.  One
    year on Melissa's birthday, I noticed each twin had given her a
    card that said, "Happy Birthday to My Best Friend."
    
    I wondered, how can she be best friend to each of them?  So far,
    they do seem to have some sort of a tri-friendship, although all
    3 also have a lot of other girlfriends.
    
    The only thing that makes it awkward for me is if you invite one
    twin you have to invite the other, which can make it expensive and
    crowded!  (Although, I do like both girls a lot.)
    
    Lorna
    

The best combination I've been involved with with other females was 4.  That
way, there was always someone around to do something with.  When the four got
together, we sometimes paired off to talk. 

There was less jealousy and more intimacy in the foursome.  It is hard to be
intimate about something you want to talk about with two or more other people at
one time, yet you can go and tell all 3 the same thing privately. Sometimes you
have to word things different for different people and/or there is just less
vulnerability involved 1 on 1. 

I think any group will work better if there is an even amount in number.  That
way, if people need to just go out with one person at a time, no one gets/feels
left out. But you really can't organize friendships like that.  It either
happens that way or it doesn't. 

All in all, I think those insecurities go away as you grow up.  That explains
why most women here say they haven't encountered the problem since high school.