Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Thanks for sharing that, Barbara.  I think it'll prove helpful to
    many other people contemplating the process.
    
    						=maggie

It might be interesting to contrast that with a divorce in a different
legal system.

After living together for about 4 years, my ex- and I got married so she
could get a visa -- we decided to move from Sweden to the US so I could
get a better job (within Dec) and she could see what the states were
like.  We separated about 18 months later (mostly inability to communicate
and/or deal with job stress and the stress of a changed environment -- loss
of friends, etc.) and decided to finalize the divorce a few months later.

Eva's mother got the papers from the Stockholm court; we filled them out
and mailed them in.  I think her mother paid the $10 filing fee.  A few
month's later, the court mailed us the judgement.  All Swedish court
decisions must have a written "motivation."  Ours read "There is reason
to accept the request."  Neither of us ever appeared in court.  We split
property ourselves.  (Things are a bit more complicated if there are
children involved, or the divorce is contested, of course.)

Since I was about to buy a house, I paid a local lawyer $150 to write
up a Separation of Property Agreement.  I think I translated the court
decision for the lawyer: it was pretty straightforward.  When he saw
the Swedish papers, he said "This would put us all out of work."

Exactly.

Martin.

    I seem to recall sometime back that there was a book you could
    purchase in the Boston area about Do-it-yourself Divorce. Does
    anyone remember the title?  It might be helpful for anyone 
    to pursue this line.

    I once read a suggestion that it should only cost a few dollars
    to get a divorce and $1000s to get married instead of the other
    way around. This way there would be fewer failed marriages. Sounds
    like we're getting there. My brother who is getting re-married is
    complaining about how much it costs (their paying for everything).
    
    I'm not so sure it will save all that many marriages though.

    		Alfred

    
    I've been through it once and am going through it again, both under
    Massachusetts law.  Things really changed since 1980-81.
    
    Divorce #1 was filed in June 1980, papers served in July, support
    hearing in October.  Because it was a quick & easy uncontested divorce
    the judge said he'd grant it that day as well if I'd wait until the
    end.  I had filed on grounds of cruel and abusive treatment.  Little
    did I know then that I would have to take the stand and testify to
    those grounds against my husband in his presence.  The divorce was
    granted and became final 6 months later.
    
    Divorce #2 is in progress.  I originally filed in the summer of 1986.
    My husband has been contesting it and refused to accept the papers.
    It took 6 months for the sheriff to finally serve the papers.  A
    separation agreement was drawn up a year ago and has not been signed
    yet because of an issue over our son.
    
    I finally have a court date of Feb. 3, for my support hearing.  It was
    necessary to petition the court to have my husband brought to trial as
    he is so unwilling to cooperate and work with us.
    
    When I'll get into court for the actual divorce hearing is another
    thing altogether.  Massachusetts courts are very slow.  At least the
    waiting period for the divorce to become final has been reduced to 3
    months.
    
    Cost? - Divorce #1 was $672.00 for everything.  Divorce #2 was to cost
    around $750.00, which is the retainer fee requested.  Actual cost is
    now up around $2000.00.  Big difference from 8-9 years ago.
    
    Beckie

    The following is what happens with an "uncontested no-fault" divorce.
    
    A joint petition signed by both parties or their attorneys is filed
    with the court. The only prerequisite is that the parties have to
    have bee "living apart" for a minimum of 30 days.  Along with the
    petition a certified copy of the marriage certificate and some court
    forms get filed.  Before you can get a court date a signed "Agreement"
    and, if there are children, Child Support worksheets must be filed
    with the court.  Once everything is files you can request a court
    date (usually can get in most of the courts within a month) and
    there is about a 5 minute hearing on the matter.  Both parties have
    to be present.  Massachusetts has what is called a "rule nisi" which
    bascially means the divorce isn't final for awhile.  With a nonconteste
    no fault the rule nisi enters automatically 30 days after the hearing
    and alot of judges just let it enter automatically instead of signing
    it earlier.  The divorce is final 90 days after the nisi enters.
    In most cases you end up with the divorce being final 120 days after
    the hearing.
    
    Contested "no fault" divorces work a little differently.  The party
    filing files a complaint with the court.  The other side is served
    by the deputy sherriff's dept.  From the date of filing there is
    a six month waiting period before you can request a court date.
    If you can't come to an Agreement on property, support, custody
    etc. before the end of the 6 mos. the parties sit down with a mediator.
    If they still can't reach an agreement, then the case goes to trial.
    It takes along time to get a trial date, mostly becasue the courts
    are so clogged.  If the parties can come to an agreement (especially
    before the 6 mos are up) they can change to an uncontested no-fault
    and the 6mos. no longer applies.  The same rule nisi period applies
    to both types of nofault divorces.
    
    "Fault" divorces are becoming rare.  They seem to be used mostly
    as a form of vindictiveness  or where one party won't cooperate
    and the other doesn't want to wait the extra 6 mos.  I"m not saying
    that they are never justified - just that the no fault route is
    easier and more often used.
    
    

    This is the cheap/easy way - assuming no arguments.  
    
    We had gone to a lawyer together, stating that we had worked out
    all issues, and didn't want a "divorce lawyer" but rather someone
    to simply help with the paperwork, and facilitate the court hearing.
    He wanted $700, and said he would only work with one of us, and
    only if the other had a lawyer as well.  We walked out!
    
    My ex then called the court, in Boston, to ask if we could do it
    ourselves, and what was involved.  They said, we'll send you the
    paperwork, fill it out and send it back with a $25 filing fee. 
    They sent us an impressive pile of paperwork, and some directions
    on filling it out.  We guessed at a couple terms, and asked for
    definitions of a couple, but basically had very little problems
    with the paperwork.  We send it back, with the fee, and got the
    paperwork back quickly, with a couple minor points clarified, and
    changes requested.  Shortly after these were sent back to the courts,
    we received notification to be at the Concord courthouse (nearest
    one to us?) at a specific date/time for our hearing.  On that day,
    it took maybe five minutes before the judge, and it was done!
    
    Total cost $25  - total time beginning to end, a couple months,
    but only a few hours effort.   Easy!   BTW - there were children,
    so the paperwork included the support agreement, and a few other
    extra things, but no undue complications.  As far as I can see,
    lawyers should only be involved if there *are* disagreements!  
    
    Linda

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ===================================================================

    In New Hampshire, you can use a do-it-yourself approach if the divorce
    is uncontested and relatively simple.  The New Hampshire Pro Se Divorce
    Project ("pro se" means "for yourself", I think), in Concord, has
    prepared a package that they'll send you for a nominal ($5?) fee, and
    it describes and follows very much the same process that Barbara
    outlined in .0. 

    The Pro Se package includes sample papers that you have to prepare and
    file, discussing process and the approximate time frames.  When I went
    through this a few years ago, I got the Pro Se package and then bought
    one hour of a lawyer's time before deciding whether or not to try to go
    through the process without lawyers.  I asked the lawyer about possible
    pitfalls of the process, got some tips on the language to use in
    identifying who gets to keep what, and got answers to some technical
    questions about filling out the forms. 

    The total cost of the process was about $125 -- about $65 for filing
    fees, and $60 for the lawyer's consultation.   We were able to use the
    process because the divorce was uncontested, there were no major
    problems in dividing any assets, and there was no child support
    involved. 

    I don't remember exactly how to contact the group that supplied the
    information.  The group is probably listed in directory assistance as
    the Pro Se Divorce Project (possibly with "New Hampshire" tacked on the
    front); if not, a call to the Attorney- General's office ought to do
    the trick. 

    A final note:  at the final hearing before the master, our case, too,
    was the last one to be heard; we were the only ones not represented by
    lawyers (as well as the only ones who both appeared); and the
    judge/master asked similar questions as in .0. At least half of the
    other people were asked demeaning and embarrassing questions *by their
    own lawyer!* -- questions such as when they last had marital relations,
    or whether their spouse slept around, or whether they slept around.
    Good grief, the whole process is difficult enough without having to
    endure that kind of crap from someone who is ostensibly on your own
    side. 
         

    I am in the process of getting a pro se (do it yourself) divorce
    in Mass. My wife and I are using a lawyer for the consutation 
    part, who is drawing up the required agreement and was there to
    answer all questions. We are very happy with this solution as
    neither of us likes form filling out. The lawyer is a woman who
    teaches at Northeastern Law School and worksout of her home in
    Brookline. Cost is $250.00 plus $110.00 court filing fee. I will
    be happy to refer you, just send mail. Almost forgot! There can
    be no disputes over property, children or support. I'll send 
    details if you write.