Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Reposted in the FGD for the *much needed* enlightment of those that
    don't read the FWO notes.               
    
               <<< MOSAIC::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
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Note 377.1            FWO day vs night (reference to #369)                1 of 1
PRYDE::ERVIN "Roots & Wings..."                      61 lines  10-JAN-1989 21:16
            -< Subtle power; confused as courtesy by the unsubtle >-
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I think there is a clear difference re: door holding.  And I use door 
holding as a euphemism.  What I think most of this discussion boils down to 
is an issue of power and control.

Your description, Justine, especially of the man who 'guides' women through 
doors by touching us someplace is a phenominon that is described in detail 
in Nancy Henley's book, Body Politics, which has been reprinted and now 
available in your favorite local feminist (I mean strident feminist) 
bookstore.

BTW, I have also found that men need to guide women out of elevators with 
the same kind of physical contact that is also used to guide us through 
doors.  Elevator behaviour is the same.  It drives me crazy if a man is 
closest to the door and won't just get on with it so the rest of the world 
can get into the elevator without so much ado.  The same is true of getting 
out of elevators.  

Anyway, not to get derailed here, there are clearly a lot of issues around 
touch, time, etc., which are examined in Nancy's book.  How often do we see 
a male manager walk up to the (usually) female secretary who is perhaps 
seated in her chair and the man will put his hand on her arm or back as he 
talks to her.  This *is* power and an issue of who gets to touch whom.  
Would that secretary walk up to the male manager who is seated and put her 
hand on his arm or back as she talked to him?  I think not.

Time is another vehicle for exercising the issue of who has power or 
importance.  How many of you have been cured while waiting in the waiting 
room of a doctor?  You make an appointment for 2:00 out of your busy 
schedule, perhaps juggling work responsibilities or needing to pick up kids 
from school/daycare, or you have someplace else to be at 4:00, and then how 
long do you wait?  Isn't is more likely that you get seen at 2:30 or 
beyond?  I find that this behaviour is worse with male doctors.  Since I 
now only go to female doctors I have found that my time spent sitting 
around waiting rooms has been dramatically reduced.  In fact, if a doctor, 
either male or female, were to be habitually late with appointments, I 
would change doctors.

This same time tactic is used with interviewees for jobs.  How many times 
have you showed up for an interview appointment only to have the interview 
start 10 or 15  minutes late?  This is power also.  This says, your time is 
less important than my time.  Etc.

The same dynamics carry over to space, language, body movement, eye 
contact.  Nancy Henley's book was originally published in 1977 and it is 
still as timely today as it was in 1977.  And that's a sad commentary on 
how far we have supposedly come in 12 years.

Which reminds me of that 'delightful' advertisement for some cigarette that 
was marketed toward women..."you've come a long way, baby..."  Not too 
insulting.  Adult women being referred to as 'baby'.

Robin Tyler did a brilliant routine about this particular commercial and 
how these types of advertisements debase the fact that the equal rights 
movement is a civil rights movement.

As the old saying goes...I haven't travelled far, and I haven't travelled 
wide, but I've been a broad for all of my life...  Language, terminology, 
touch, time, economics, all can be used/abused for power and control.

Laura
                                            

    Re .0, .1, I've noticed all these things and I agree with you both.
     I makes me furious to think about them.  As a secretary, it especially
    makes me furious to think about a boss touching a secretary on the
    arm or shoulder.  I realize it's been a long time since this has
    happened to me.  I can't help but wonder if it's because men are
    more enlightened these days both about acceptable behavior and sexual
    harrassment charges, or if I'm not as cute as I used to be :-),
    or if my manner (I hope) is less likely to encourage this type of
    behavior.  At any rate, I'm so conscious of this type
    of behavior after participating in =wn= for 2 1/2 yrs., that I will
    not react favorably if a manager ever dares touch me, as a power
    play, on a job again.
    
    
    Lorna
    

    re 377.11, Liz-
    
    Your note reminded me of something similar previously mentioned,
    check out Liesl's 255.10 and Dawn's 255.11.
    
    DougO

    I want to live in a world of cooperation and consideration.
    I hold doors for everybody.  If you don't want to walk
    through a door that I am holding open, don't do it. 
    If you feel that I am oppressing you because you have a female
    body and i'm power-playing you by holding a door, I'm saddened.
    I won't be offended.   The next time I go through a door, I'll hold
    it open again if someone is coming along behind me, but  I'll try
    to remember not to hold it for you again.   If I forget, please
    forgive me, I'm just a poor slob who can't help himself
    (I forget where that came from, but I thought it was a great
    note-title).
    
    
    /bruce

This note bothers me. I don't argue about if it is a power play or not.
I will hold a door for any one that is near me, its out of politeness
not power.

Now I have to wonder if I hold a door open for a woman is she thinking 
"He's holding the door as power play". Now do I walk through a door 
let it close on the woman behind me or hold it. If I let it close
it can be taken as rudeness , if I hold it I'm doing a power play.
And you wonder why men don't understand woman.

As far as touching , for me its hands off.

dave

    About 10 years ago, at my last job, there was a small group of us
    who regularly went out for lunch.  One of these people was a woman,
    who, when she happened to get to the door of the restaurant first,
    stopped dead in her tracks.  I immediately picked up what was
    happening, and stopped dead behind her.  We always waited a few
    seconds, and then one of the other men in the party (there were
    no other women) wimped out and opened the door.  I was willing
    to wait (to quote Adlai) until hell froze over...
    
    /bruce

    <--(.6)
    
    I hear that one, Bruce;  I've had that happen to _me_! :-( 

                           			=maggie

    
      re: .5
    
    If you are not sure you will be interpreted correctly, before holding
    the door, ask yourself, "if this person were a man and the situation
    were identical in every other way (i.e. positions of people involved,
    status of people involved, etc.), what would be the natural thing
    to do." 
    
    If you truly do this and someone still gets offended, then it is
    in their head, not yours.
                           
    Roberta
          

>    If you truly do this and someone still gets offended, then it is
>    in their head, not yours.
                           
 Hold the phone .. Isn't this note about what woman think the men are
 thinking  when he holds  a door for them.

 Then what you are saying is that this whole discussion is meaningless.
 You can't tell what is in my head as I hold the door open for you and
 I can't tell what is in yours. Then that means that if a woman feels
 offended when a man holds the door its really in her head. :-)

dave

    RE: .8 and .9
    
    I think you are both right....
    
    		it's all in our heads anyway.

    
    re: .5, .9
    
    Give me a break! You are the one who asked for advice.  :^)
    
    The point is that if you have honorable intentions in holding the
    door (i.e. NOT doing it just because it's a woman going through),
    then the woman will probably not have a problem with it. 
    
    If you do it just because she is a woman, then she may have a problem
    with it, and THEN you should be listening to what people are saying
    in this file.
    
    Got it now?
                   
    Roberta