Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I'm sorry, but what do FWO and FGD mean?
    
    K.C.

    FWO = For Women Only
    FGD = For General Discussion
    
    There's a reply in Note 1 that describes these notes in more detail.
    
    
    Liz Augustine
    womannotes comoderator

    
    For Women Only.  For General Discussion.  (i think!)
    
    Conni

    Re .0, I think it depends on what is meant by seduction?  Or, maybe
    the problem is that some people (usually men, but maybe sometimes
    women) can't take no for an answer, and realize that if they try
    to seduce somebody and the person says no, or doesn't seem
    enthusiastic, that they should just drop the issue, and not turn
    seduction into pressure.
    
    It's fun to be seduced by somebody that we want to be seduced by.
     It's horrible to be seduced be somebody that we don't want to be
    seduced by.  If there's any doubt in the seducer's mind, then I
    think the safest thing to do is just *stop*.  So what if you miss
    out on one sexual interlude?  If there's any real interest there,
    the opportunity will probably come up again.
    
    I agree that flirting is fun, but it's not really the same thing
    as actual seduction.  Flirting may, but doesn't have to, lead to
    seduction.
    
    On the other hand, I do agree with Dawn.  In this day and age most
    women are not going to faint with horror if somebody comes right
    out and says, "Will you have sex with me?"  (as long as it's not
    a complete stranger)  I think the seduction aspect came about because
    nice women were not supposed to really want to have sex, in earlier
    times, so men had to coerce them into it.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    The idea that seduction is _required_ is silly [imho].  Most folks
    _do_ know [a] if they are interested and [b] if they plan on acting
    on that interest.
    
    However, sometimes it's a delightful surprise and one enjoys the
    ride.
    
    'Let's seduce each _other_' can be wonderful.
    
       Ann
    
    
    

    
    I don't think women *need* to be seduced.  I do think that women
    (at least this one ;-) may *like* to be seduced.  And women may
    also like to seduce. I think men *like* to be seduced, too.  An
    elegant seduction is a fun thing.  If it's pretty clear that you're
    going to go to bed anyway, why not have fun at it?  As long as it
    is not coerced and there is an easy "out" for both parties, it's
    a good time.  
    
    And if the situation turns into a lasting relationship, the memory
    of that exquisite seduction can provide all sorts of fun later on.
    
    Case in point:
    
    I spent an evening with a charming man. I had housemates, so my
    bedroom was set up as a combo living room/study/bedroom, and was
    where I entertained my guests.  So we hung out there, listened to
    music, chatted.  Then we went downstairs to the den to play with
    my cats, who were not allowed in my bedroom because I was still
    a little allergic to cat fur then.  Upon going back to my room,
    I turned and gave him my most innocent, wide-eyed gaze, and said,
    "You're all covered with cat fur; if you want to come in here you'll
    have to take those clothes off."
    
    Now, he could have said, "I think we should go back to the den."
    He didn't.  I married him. (No, not then, later ;-)  Now the very
    words "You're all covered in cat fur" will send either of us into
    hysterical laughter or serious shivers ;-)  Somehow, it just wouldn't
    have been the same if I had just said, "Hey, wanna go to bed with
    me."
    
    (Maybe I shoulda put this in "True Confessions", but I think you
    get my point.)
    
    Rita
    

    yup.  Another vote for mutual seduction.  
    
    btw, I have seduced more often than I have been seduced, although
    this has not necessarily been by choice.
    
    Tango's are not the only seduction assistant - roses work well,
    as do poems and bottles of champagne.  Moonlight is a nice side-dish.
    I don't think it's necessary that a man *always* seduce a woman,
    but some of them feel uncomfortable if it's the other way 'round.
    The important thing is to "sound out" the other person, and make
    sure you are what they want (or they are what you want), and that 
    form of seduction is what you (or they) want.  Always listen to the 
    other person.
    
    -Jody

    Champagne, pate and crackers, some cheese and fruit, on a furry
    rug in front of a crackling fire, the flames glistening on the
    champagne flutes as we put them aside where they won't be knocked
    over by -- 
    
    Seduction isn't persuasion so much as arousal. After a bad day at
    work and a couple of hours of getting the kids fed and bedded or
    settled down to their homework, romance is not generally the first
    thing on either of our minds.  Seduction, either one of us by the
    other or mutual, helps us relax and starts us thinking in terms of
    sexual enjoyment instead of survival.  If he asked me, "Want to go
    upstairs and fool around?"  I'd probably say "No, not tonight, I'm
    tired and it's been a rough day and I'm not really in the mood."
    If, however, we cuddle for a while, and he rubs my back a bit, and
    then nibbles my ear and says the same thing, I'll be off for the
    stairs in a flash. 

    The same general thing was true when I was dating -- I didn't need
    to be seduced in the sense of having to be persuaded I was
    interested in sex.  But in order to make love that was mutually
    satisfying, we generally both needed something seductive and
    suggestive to make the transition from the everyday troubles to
    the private intimacy of loving. 
    
    --bonnie

    Another vote for mutual seduction.  I feel that "Do you want to
    have sex?" KILLS the mood.  I don't know about anyone else, but
    I like to be put into the mood before I have sex.  Of course, I
    do the same for my hub. 
    
    K.C.

    RE: .11
    
    OK, if asking the question outright "kills the mood", then how can
    we make clear lines beyond which lies date rape? How do we communicate,
    and *be sure* we have communicated how we feel about having sex
    with a man who has shown interest? How can we not blur the lines
    so that what we want is clear, and there is no opportunity for
    misunderstanding?
    
    --DE
    

    re: .12 
    
    I never found that men are the animals they're reputed to be. I've
    never had any trouble with "I'm not ready for/interested in that
    kind of thing," if the advance was fairly subtle -- a touch that
    asks for more, for instance.  Depending on the man and where I
    wanted the relationship to end up eventually, I've either phrased
    it more gently -- "We have such a good friendship and I don't want
    to jeopardize that" -- or more firmly -- "I'm not interested in a
    sexual relationship right now, please stop." 
    
    I think it's important to say it like you mean it.  If you're
    thinking, "Oh, God, what am I going to do if he doesn't stop?"
    he's more likely to push his luck.  And you can't be afraid to be
    the first one to verbalize what's going on.  A lot of date rape
    situations seem to arise because the man never specifically asked,
    so the woman never had a chance to say no.  You have to say
    something as soon has he has done something you're uncomfortable
    not wait and hope he doesn't try anything more.
    
    I never had any trouble giving off positive responses. :) :) 

    --bonnie

    Thank you, Bonnie, for answering the question better than I ever
    could!  But that is my thought.
    
    K.C.

    I think that any intelligent man should be able to figure out
    for himself whether or not a woman wants to be seduced.  Even 
    if the woman has not said anything, her body language will usually
    be a good indicator.
    
    As to the question of whether the man or woman should do the seducing
    - I think it is a mutual thing, although I tend to like to start
    the ball rolling.  To just ask a man if he wants to go to bed with
    me is really boring to me.  Where is the excitement in that?
    
    Sue
    

    Re .13, I've found out that *some* men are *almost* the animals
    they're reputed to be :-), and that other men are definitely not
    animals.  Sometimes it probably really is a lack of communication
    and misunderstanding.
    
    I've only known about the concept of date rape for the past couple
    of years, and it was only through reading a couple of articles and
    a few notes in the first =wn= that I realized it had actually happened
    to me a few times.  Before that I had always blamed myself when
    the instances happened.  I always thought I should have known better
    and had never thought of the concept that, regardless of what's
    going on, if a woman says no a man should respect it.
    
    This hasn't happened for a long time, and certainly not since I've
    been reading =wn= :-)!  But, when I was younger I was very shy and
    non-assertive and found it difficult to confront other people. 
    
    What I found to be a typical way for a man to try to coerce a woman
    into having sex with him when she doesn't want to, is for the man
    to try to make the woman feel guilty, to feel that she has led him
    on somehow, and shouldn't even be there with him, if she hadn't
    intended to have sex (even tho having sex may not have ever been
    discussed between the two).  I once had a date scream at me that
    I should have sat up talking to him until 3 in the morning if I
    hadn't intended to have sex with him.  Humorously enough this man
    happened to be an ex-priest and a psychiatrist.  
    
    Lorna
    

    The question "do you want to have sex" would definitely kill my mood.
    How about - "I really want to make love to you right now. This very
    minute. Do you want me as much as I want you?" Yeah.. It's the same
    question, but it sounds a tad less mechanical.
    
    _karen

    On the idea of miscommunication, do men understand the word
    seduce in a different way than women?
    
    Mr. Webster defines it this way:
    
    Seduce:  1.  To entice into wrongful conduct; corrupt.
    	     2.  To induce to have sexual intercourse.
             3.  To attract esp. by enticement.
    
    Do men use a combination of meanings 1 and 2 while women understand
    it by using a combination of 2 and 3?

    re:.18
    
    Well, personally, I (male) see it as basically a combination of
    2 and 3, with maybe a pinch of 1 mixed in.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .19, re. 18, personally, I (female) agree.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    Quick response.. your personal statement = WONDERFUL!!!!
    
    As to content of your note.... I agree.
    
    marie