Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    neither.  we did the 'entreat me not...' passage from the Book of
    Ruth.
    
    yes, we thought about it before hand.
    
      Ann

    We used the "cherish" line, and yes we thought about it at the time.
     There was no way that I was going to promise to obey my husband.
    We went into marriage agreeing to have a partnership and I don't
    see how that would be possible if I promised to 'obey' him in my
    vows. 
    

    If anyone is interested, Lord Peter Wimsey and Miss Harriet Vane
    had an episode regarding "obey" in the book "Busman's Honeymoon"
    Dorothy L. Sayers had interesting ideas regarding marriage and vows.
    
    Dondi (I didn't promise to "obey" my husband and he didn't promise
    to obey me)

    neither......we recited verses having to do with
    love, friendship, companionship, 'oneness' and the
    like. No mention of cherish or (that ugly word OBEY).
    
    pat

    We used Respect rather than Obey.
    
    Liz

   Although I wanted a traditional Wedding I refused to use Obey in
   our Vows we chose "Cherish"
    
    
    Bethany
   

    We had the term Respect, and our exchanged vows ended with:
    
    	"...For as long as we both shall live,
    	 Because you are my beloved
    	 and you are my friend."
    
    K.C.

    Ours had Respect ( the JP surprised us with it, with no complaints),
    and our exchanged vows ended with:
    
    	"... for as long as we both shall live,
    	 because you are my beloved,
    	 and you are my friend."
    
    K.C.
    
    P.S.  Do they still have obey?  I thought that it was sort of discontinued.

    "I, (Pat/Steve) take thee (Steve/Pat) to be my wedded (husband/wife),
    to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse,
    for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to
    cherish till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance,
    and thereto I pledge thee my faith."
    
    Yes, we discussed "obey" briefly, but neither of us wanted it. We each
    wrote passages to read during the ceremony that were totally personal,
    but for the life of us couldn't imagine any vow more beautiful or more
    appropriate (for us at least) than the traditional one quoted above. 
    
    							Pat

    I agree that .7 is a nice touch.
    
    I'll have to keep this in mind if/whenever I am in the proper stage
    to venture forth on the matrimonial seas.
    
    "Obey" discontinued?  Yeah; in more ways than one...
    
    (grins)
    Bill

    Well I was married 21 years ago last June and the word 'obey' was
    not at that time part of the Episcopal marriage service...it was
    love honr and cherish. Since that prayer book revision was older
    than I was I have often wondered what churchs still did
    use obey.
    
    Bonnie

	Sorry to let my cynicism show...but what the hell difference
       does it make what we say when over 50% of the couples who get
       married get divorced? We said all those pretty words too. liesl

    I am getting married in twelve days.  These are our vows:
    
    	I Timothy Patrick take thee Leanne Michelle to my wedded Wife,
    to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse,
    for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to
    cherish, til death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance;
    and thereto I plight thee my troth.
    
    	I Leanne Michelle take thee Timothy Patrick to my wedded husband,
    to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse,
    for richer for poorer, in sickness and health, to love, honor and
    obey till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and
    thereto I give thee my troth.
    
    Our ceremony is completly traditional and yes we have discussed
    the obey part and believe it or not it was my decision to say it.
    I have always wanted total tradition for my wedding and we both
    feel that to say obey does not mean that he gets to order me around.
    I have always had old fashioned ideas for relationships and marriage.
    I am saying it out of tradition, and I think it is nice.
    
    -Michelle-
    Who_can't_wait_to_be_called_Mrs._Timothy_Simpson

    David and I wrote all our own vows from scratch.  Nothing could be more
    personal or mean more to me than those words that we each wrote for
    each other.  In fact both of our sets of vows were different: Dave put
    together some favorite verse, I took out sentences from love notes I
    wrote to him during our engagement.  We didn't let each other hear the
    vows til the rehearsal dinner - when the reverend made us practice
    them.  Boy did I cry that night - how special his words made me feel.
    No one else heard the vows until our wedding day.  No 'obey' was in
    there - but references to love, smiles, laughter, being together,
    support and thanks for each other. Other than that ours was a pretty
    traditional, formal wedding.
    
    I don't think we ever discussed the word obey - I think we may have
    laughed over it though.
    
                           
    Suzanne

    The day of our wedding, (which was planned in 3 days), the JP just
    walked up to me and told me just to repeat what she said, that I
    would have nothing to memorize.  On top of the "vow-capper" (.7),
    she also read an American Indian marriage poem (I am 1/2 Blackfoot,
    and my hub is part A. I.).  I don't think we could have written
    ourselves any more appropriate words.  She also had in our ceremony
    not to go to bed angry.:)
    
    Sure it was a small ceremony, but both of our parents' were there,
    and a handful of close friends, I had a Maid of Honor, Leigh had
    a Best Man, and everything was perfect.  I even had a veil and flowers,
    even though I didn't have a regular wedding dress.
    
    We obey, respect, and cherish *each other*.  We are true partners.
    
    K.C.

    .16
    
    Do you know the AI marriage poem? I'd love to see it.
    
    nancy

	re .17: I don't know for sure if this is the one .16 was
	referring to, but Dee and I are going to use this at our
	wedding.
	
	Mike

			An American Indian Blessing

	Now you will feel no rain, for each of you will be shelter 
	  to the other.

	Now you will feel no cold, for each of you will be warmth
	  to the other.

	Now there is no more loneliness.
	
	Now you are two persons, but there is only one life before you.

	Go now to your dwelling to enter into the days of your life together.

	And may your days be good, and long upon the earth.

	May the Lord lift up the light of His countenance upon you and bless 
        you with love and understanding from this day forth.

	Amen.

    The word "obey" wasn't in the ceremony, just hearing the word sends
    chills up my spine.  I don't expect Jim to obey me, why should he
    expect me to obey him.  
    
    On a lighter note, doesn't Bill Cosby do a routine about the word
    "obey"?  "Sounds like pig-latin....."
    
    
    Roberta Davidson-Stratton

    re: .20
    
    Yes, Bill Cosby does do a routine on that, and the base note was
    prompted by that very tape ("Bill Cosby, Himself", available in
    a videotape rental outlets near you while supplies last).  I was
    reminded by the routine while watching Eddie Murphy's "RAW".
    
    I felt that "RAW" was a bit too vulgar for my taste (the word f**k
    was used 3 times in every sentence), although his spoof on Bill 
    Cosby was funnier than the rest of the tape...
    
    Bill

    I'm getting married in 4 days, but can't remember exactly what the vows
    will be. 
    
    The JP showed us her ceremony, which she'd promised to be "non-sexist
    and non-denominational"; they were and we both liked it. She's been
    working on it for some years, and it seemed to fit us pretty well.
    There's something in there about marriage not automatically making
    everything wonderful, and that we each need to look within ourselves, as
    well as to the other, for our fulfillment. I don't expect to remember it
    very well, so we'll have to ask her for a copy.
    
    We decided to leave it as she wrote it. There's no mention of obedience.
    We went to a wedding recently where the he had to vow to clean up after
    her. There's something to be said for that.

    We're trying to be as *un*traditional as we can be, because we revel in
    iconoclasm (thanks for that word, Maggie!) and because don't like the
    connotations of many of the [sexist] traditions, like engagement rings,
    my asking for her hand, her being given away, playing with garters and
    throwing bouquets. We're settling for pledging our love and friendship,
    followed by good food, drink and dancing. 
    
    Well, that's more than you asked for, isn't it? It's hard to concentrate
    on anything else at this point...

    Re .22
    
    Congradulations!
    
    I know what you mean by untraditional.  We, too, didn't bother with
    engagement rings, and as for "asking for my hand", my parents didn't
    find out about the wedding until the night before, when I invited
    them!  (Don't get the wrong idea; I wanted them there.  Its just
    that we planned the wedding in 3 days, on Labor Day weekend, and
    my parents were out of town until Monday night, and the wedding
    was Tuesday night.)  And our JP also put some radical and different
    things into our vows as I mentioned in previous notes.  Oh, and
    our wedding was videotaped by my husband and his dad, and I arranged
    the music.  I walked down the aisle (hallway?) to "One Hand, One
    Heart" from "West Side Story", and "The Promise" by Debby Boone.
    
    Our JP was Joyce Mc....  oh, I forget!  And our 3rd Anniversary
    is this coming Saturday. 
    
    All the best to you!!!
    
    K.C.

    re:  .23
    
    K.C., Your JP was Joyce McCaffery from Nashua. She did
    my wedding, too. Our second anniversay is 20 Sept!
    And a Happy 3rd to you!
    
    pat

    That's her!  Thank you.
    
    And a happy 2 to you, too!
    
    K.C.

    While we are on the subject - this is the reading or blessing
    we had during our wedding ceremony.  No obey or cherish yet spiritual
    and beautiful
    
    The Prophet - On Marriage
    You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.        
    
    You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter you days. 
    
    Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God. 
    
    But let there be spaces in your togetherness, 
                                                  
    And let the winds of the heavens dance between you. 
    
                                                       
    Love one another, but make not a bond  of love: 
                                                    
    Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls. 
    
    Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup. 
    
    Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf. 
    
    Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be
    alone. 
    
    Even as the strings of a lute are alone 
    
    though they quiver with the same music. 
    
    
    Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping. 
    
    For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts. 
    
    And stand together yet not too near together: 
    
    For the pillars of the temple stand apart, 
    
    And the oak tree and the cypress grow 
    
    not in each other's shadow. 
    
                                
    - Kahlil Gibran from his book the Prophet.  There are many other
    beautiful poems on love, children, death, freedom, joy and sorrow.
    A beautiful book.   
    
    Suzanne

    Cherish.. I don't "obey" anyone but myself....

    I remember saying "Obey" in my wedding vows, but I was too young
    to know any better.  :-) Regardless, I would say I cherish, and
    keep....definately not obey.
    
    
    Chris
    

    [moved by moderator]
    
CHLDRN::PMA "CHLDRN:may grow in health,wsdom,peace"  59 lines   6-SEP-1988 16:33
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   Well, firstly, we had "respect" rather than obey.
    
    Secondly, do brides and grooms recite passages to each other anymore?
    (It's been a while since I've been to a wedding...)
    
    And thirdly, in case they do, here's another suggestion (I haven't
    typed this since I did it for our wedding...12.5 yrs ago, this could
    be very nostalgic!)
    
    Random passages taken from "The Broken Wings" by Kahlil Gibran.
    I read this to my husband:
    
    	"Listen, my beloved.  Listen carefully.
    
    	 The moments which united us are greater than centuries, and
    	 the light which illuminates our spirits is stronger than the
     	 dark.
    
    	 And if a tempest should separate us on a rough ocean,
          the waves will unite us on a calm shore.
    
    	 And if this life kills us, death will unite us.
    
    	 A woman's heart will not change with time or season.
    	 Even if it dies eternally, it will never perish.
    
    	 A woman's heart is like a field turned into a battleground:
    	  after the trees are uprooted and the grass is burned,
    	  it is calm and silent as if nothing has happened, for the
    	  Spring and the Autumn return at their intervals
    	  and resume their work.
    
    	 I will live in you the life of a flower under the sun's ray.
    	 I will echo your name, as the valleys echo the bells of 
    	  village churches.
	 I will listen to your soul as the shore listens to the stories
    	  of the waves.
    
    	 During our youth, love will be our teacher.
    	 In middle age, our help,
    	 And in old age, our delight.
    
    	 Love will stay with us to the end of our days, and
    	  after death, the hand of God will unite us again."
    
    Now, I realize that the part about: "I will live..I will echo, and
    I will listen" could offend some people.  In my instance, however,
    it does not reflect "subservience"...as my husband does the same
    for me.
    
    The part about teacher has proven true.  "Help" is also valid. 
    We were told 4 days ago that Alan requires open heart surgery within
    the next 2-3 weeks.  I watched our love and strength pass between
    us this weekend as we struggled with questions and fears...
    
    When it is over, and we get to the "old age, love = delight" part,
    I am sure we'll find that true also.    

    Pat MilliganAbber    	

    I'm getting married in 16 days. Paul and I have discused the vows many
    times. At first, we were going to use *cherish*, but since our pre-
    marital counceling (our minister requires it if he is to do the
    wedding. I'm not complaining) I have decided to go with *obey*.
    This has a lot to do with my Christian faith. The Bible says: "Wives
    submit to your husbands as to the Lord." Eph. 5:22. But, it also says,
    "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave
    himself up for her." Eph. 5:25. Both of us being Christians, I trust 
    him not to take advantage of my submission. My decision has nothing
    to do with *tradition*. It is what I feel to be of my heart, what I
    truly believe.
                  
    
      +Carina+