Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    For those members who will be away during the voting period, an
    "absentee ballot" may be lodged via mail (not phone) with any of
    the moderators.
    
    						=maggie

    	Definitely in favor of For Woman Only notes.  As moderators
    	have mentioned, we have more than ample evidence that FWO will
    	never amount to more than 1 or 2 percent of the total basenotes
    	in the conference, so we're talking about a very small group
    	of notes.  Also, every FWO would have an accompanying general
    	discussion, so there isn't a person in this corporation that
    	would be prevented from voicing an opinion about the subject
    	at hand.
    
    	Personally, I think it is interesting to see how discussions
    	develop among women who are talking to other women.  I don't
    	see how the presence of such discussions (in 1 or 2 percent
    	of the total basenotes) can possibly hurt or inconvenience
    	anyone else.)  My vote is yes.

    
    I'll second Suzanne's comments.
    
    am

    It's wrong and drives away large numbers of potential contributors.
    
    			Steve

    
    
    I see no problem with seperatism in notes. Afterall they are not
    set no read.  Read the FWO and Respond in FGD..what is all the
    ruckus.  Still sounds little boyish to respond with a no vote!
    
    Dave

    To be honest, I never would have imagined "yes" would be my vote
    when I started noting here a year ago.  Experience has shown that
    this notesfile _can_ be a viable place for women to communicate,
    and that some men will deliberately attempt to sabotage that.
    Given the promise and the threat, my vote can only be so for the
    best wishes to those this notesfile is really for: women at Digital.

    If you promise to be forgiving if I forget to put in the FGD entry,
    should I ever enter a FWO note.
    
    							Ann B.

    I really dislike this whole issue, as I dislike anything that smacks of
    protectionism. Ideally, people will discuss what they want to discuss,
    and accept or ignore replies as they choose. If someone requests
    certain restrictions on replies, others should be considerate; they can
    always start their own topic if they don't like the restrictions. 
    
    However, it's obvious that etiquette alone isn't sufficient to restrain
    some people. Therefore I will vote for FWO notes - but if I respond to
    any I plan to use the FGD topic. 

    -b

    Yes.  I think it's a good idea.
    
    Helen.

    I think it's important to be able to discuss certain issues
    just with other people who have been through the same thing.
    

Separate but equal is not equal, nor is it proper here or in any corresponding
part of Digital.

Martin Minow
    

	There are no unequivocal rights and wrongs.  We compromise to
	try and make the world better for all.

      Pretty soon we have all sorts of stuff like:
    Only single women who have never been married
    Only divirce males with 2.5 kids 
    Etc get the picture.......
    
      But, the males in here should be considerate of some of the subject
    matter and think first. I mean I can not know how it feels to have
    a life inside of me growing etc. I, for one, do not put in alot
    of relies because I'd rather read and learn. When I have a comment
    or a question I reply. I don't want to start reading every base
    note to see if I'm allowed to reply or not. I'd rather leave this
    conference that be "regulated". I left human_relations and memnotes
    because those two were getting to be too regulated (network police).
    I did not agree with the policies that were set in them so I left.
    My choice to leave. Thats what makes the whole notesfile network
    special, you don't have to write or reply to enjoy. And if you don't
    like what is going on then just quit reading.....
    
                 REK

WOMANSPACE:

	A breath of fresh air in an otherwise constricted 
environment.

    
    
    I will be nice about this.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			FWO followed by FGD is more than we got.
    

    If you're going to go against the consensus, you'd better explain
    yourself ....
    
    On the one hand, if a noter requests that only women respond, it's
    only polite to honor that request.  On the other hand, there's nothing
    to stop men from starting a new note and commenting there.  So the
    question becomes whether the men's responses should be gathered in
    a separate place or not.
    
    Pro-separatist position:  What's the big deal?  You can still comment,
    just not in this particular note.
    
    Anti-separatist position:  What's the big deal?  You can ignore
    my note regardless of whether it's separate or intermingled.
    
    So it comes down to whether courtesy should be enforced.  I finally
    decided that, as far as I'm concerned, people have the right to
    act like jerks (and to suffer the consequences of their decision).
               

But if I leave my words in the wrong place, please move them gently to the
right place (or mail them back so I can rereply easily), ok?

I don't see what the major difficulty is over replying in one string rather
than another, especially since it has been invoked so very infrequently.
Inconvenient, but infrequent, so it isn't a major hassle.  Better to have
more notes to read, and to reply to a few of them in another string, than
to never read those notes at all.  It lets everyone have their way.  (And
if every topic gets split into FWO & FGD, well, what to do will provide
another big debate, to be sure!  But I don't think it'll happen.)

					- Aron

From:	SCRUFF::CONLIFFE     "XCON/XSEL: Parts is parts..." 18-MAY-1988 13:16
To:	MOSAIC::TARBET,CONLIFFE    
Subj:	Absentee Ballot (-wn- vote)

I'm going to be away for the week of the vote, but would like to record
my opinion that I am in favor of the FWO notes. I'm not convinced that 
the FGD parallel note string is required.

				Nigel
				(7.125)

From:	MOSAIC::LARUE        "IT'S TIME TO FORGE AHEAD" 18-MAY-1988 13:26
To:	VIKING::TARBET
Subj:	absentee ballot

re: fwo notesfiles since I will be out of town:


vote    YES

From:	BIMMRO::WARREN       20-MAY-1988 14:56
To:	MOSAIC::TARBET
Subj:	RE: Vote

Thanks.  I vote YES to continue the option of FWO notes, as long as they
are followed by FGD notes.

"See" you next week!

-Tracy

    
    DougO

    
    (I am, however, in favor of the proposal.)
    

    I encourage the creation of ways for women to communicate.

	Based on "valuing differences" we must cease this simplistic
    approach that all contributions are equally relevant in all topics.

	When people attempt to exchange ideas and opinions sometimes
    it isn't enough just to be sympathetic to women and their problems
    but indeed to have actual first-hand experience.  When asked for
    specific information, nobody wants to hear a male telling about
    his wife's or his SO's experiences.

   ~--e--~  Eagles_Suggest_Male_Inputs_Aren't_Always_Welcome_or_Relevant_!
            ...Better_Men_Will_Keep_Silent_When_Women_Ask_2_B_Heard_Here_!

    In 1954 the Supreme Court ruled that separate was not equal in
    the case of racially segregated schools.  However, they did not
    say that separate *could* not be equal - just wasn't in the case
    at hand.  To me, FWO's present a case where separate is equal and
    if I feel bad about anything it's that they should become a kind
    of political battleground. . .honoring a FWO request within the
    context of this open conference is, to me, a simple act of courtesy.
    
    S.
    

    					MJC O->

    	See my response to 850.

    I think it's been a sensible way to deal with a difficult,
    complicated situation.
    
    --bonnie

    I kinda think its a sad state, and in some cases wish that this
    didn't exclude the sensitive men who share relevant experiences
    of SO's. But its true that "hidden agendas" often lead the notes
    off on tangents. And in the few cases where the author really needs
    the issues to addressed, I think this is the best way.
    
    But the women of the conference should EQUALLY recognize: just being
    a woman doesn't mean that your contribution is more valid if you
    have no more experience than the average male. Let's all recognize
    that the few cases of FWO need to be handled in as constructive
    a manner as possible. And "FWO/FGD" is only a beginning. 
    
    Remember: FGD ain't just for men!!!
              
    
    PS - Special thanks to the moderators who have worked hard to keep
    several notes from digressing on wild tangents. I hope this makes
    it a bit easier.
                    

    Yes.
    
    - Mary
    

A few of the replies to this note have chosen to comment at length, and I think
that the comments have been rather thought provoking.  As some of the "No"
voters have commented, it is useful to encourage a wide range of people to
participate in these conferences.  Some may feel nervous about having notes
which are restricted from men on that basis.

Ordinarily I will be among the first to oppose attempts to limit expression.
But there are two additional factors here:

   1.	In reality no one's expression will be cut off, since men will
	be able to reply to FWO notes in FGD notes.  True, it will make
	it easier to ignore their replies.  But I think no one has a
	right to demand that his or her note be read!

   2.	Much of the basis for WOMMENNOTES existence seems to revolve
	around women feeling secure in a business world which has been
	oriented towards men for many years.  I think it's right to
	encourage this security.  If having notes which (at least nom-
	inally) exclude me helps women to deal with the realities of
	life at Digital and thus become more effective contributors,
	I think a useful purpose will have been served.

I have been a read mostly noter in this conference up to now, and I rather
expect to continue in that mold.  I don't feel excluded because of the
existence of FWO notes.  So on balance, I think we should do it.

Remember, if they turn out to be a problem later on, we can always decide
to do away with them later.

					--Q (Dick Wagman)

    <--(.72)
    
�   Remember, if they turn out to be a problem later on, we can always decide
�   to do away with them later.

    Bless you, Dick!  For all that we've repeated that NO policy is
    ever cast in concrete and it can ALWAYS be changed later if it turns
    burdensome, people still tend to react as though a wrong decision
    will plunge the world into nuclear war.
    
    May your tribe increase!
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie
    

    Reluctantly and grudgingly, I guess I have to vote yes for the sake
    of being able to enjoy this file. I was about to quit reading it,
    because it was very negatively affecting my life, when the experiment
    wass instituted. So for the sake of peace and quiet, I'll vote yes.
    But why does that feel like losing?
    
    Tamzen

                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    Of 71 votes cast, 24 were from men (34%) and 47 from women (66%)
    
    21% of the men (5) and 2% of the women (1) voted against the policy,
    for a total of 8% AGAINST.
    
    79% of the men (19) and 98% of the women (46) voted in favor of
    the policy for a total of 92% FOR. 
                             
    A clear majority being in favor, the trial FWO policy is made permanent
    and will continue to be enforced. 
    
    Any woman member of the community may request that responses within
    a particular string be made only by women.  To do that, she must
    flag that string with "FWO" in the basenote title and start a parallel
    discussion, flagged "FGD" immediately following. 
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie