Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Holly, this is an extremely difficult situation.  It reminds me
    a great deal of what my grandmother went through when her mother
    was sick and dying.  
    
    Her emotional dilemma was complicated by the fact that although there
    were eight children, only two of them felt any obligation to their
    mother.  All eight of them had children and grandchildren of their own
    and felt that they were giving their mother as much as they could
    without depriving their own families, but only my grandmother and
    my aunt Mary took it on themselves to actually visit her, talk to
    her, help her in nonmonetary ways.
    
    It might not seem like much now, but the fact that you are helping
    her and that you do care, no matter how little you're able to do,
    will mean a lot to both of you later on.

    I can understand how she feels about accepting your help monetarily and
    feeling that she has to account to you for what she spends. I felt
    *exactly* the same way last winter while I was writing my novel. 
    
    Even though we had agreed that I would not work, even though Neil never
    by word, deed, or tightened lips indicated any disapproval of my
    spending patterns, even though he encouraged me constantly in hundreds
    of ways (and never made me feel like I owed more housework because I
    wasn't bringing in income!)  I *still* felt like I had to explain why I
    spent anything more than a quarter for the parking meter.  Even a cup
    of coffee and a croissant for lunch became an issue for me. 

    Frankly, I felt like my whole life was hostage to someone else's whim.
    The fact that he had no intention of taking advantage of that situation
    didn't change the situation.  So anything you can do to make sure
    she is in control of her own life, not you, will help.
        
    Bringing in income of your own, no matter how small, is one way
    to help with this.  Would she be interested in doing something like
    babysitting one evening a week to pay for her hairdresser?  
    
    Another thing that might help -- this would depend on your mother's
    personality -- is to pay some of her expenses indirectly, thus freeing
    up her income for her own control, rather than giving her money
    directly.  She might feel more in charge then.  However, some people
    of her generation feel worse about not providing for their own basic
    needs than they do about taking money.
    
    All in all it sounds like you're doing great.  Every woman should
    have a daughter as considerate, tactful, and supportive as you!
    
    --bonnie

    This is a toughie. I faced it myself some years ago and chose a
    different path than what you have, for reasons that shall go unnamed
    here.
    
    I agree with Bonnie, in that helping her in a way which allows her
    to be independent is probably the best course. I *did* notice that
    she asked you to intercede with your dad for her. Uhm..ignore this
    if it doesn't compute, but could it turn into some kind of game
    with you in the middle? IF so, don't do it. I know nothing of your
    family situation, but I get uneasy when people draw third parties
    into their communications with other family members.
    
    Don't put youself last in this situation. Your life and obligations
    come first. Examine any situation for old hooks that might be related
    to any "old stuff" that might have been a factor in your growing
    up. Be sure you know what emotions are happening for you, and how
    they relate to the present rather than the past.
    
    my 2c
    --DE
    

    I'm really wondering about the advisability of her getting a part
    time job?  It would not only bring in some additional income, but
    also contribute to her feeling of self-sufficiency, give her an
    interest in life (and less time to brood).
    

    Re: .3
    
    I should perhaps add that you could suggest that she try
    some volunteer work as a transition to paid work.  (My Mom is 71
    and does volunteer work for the Red Cross and as a helper in a school;
    the only difference between that and "part time work" is that she
    doesn't get paid.)
    

   I used to be in a similar situation.  It was hard but by getting a 
little tough and going more my own way (and not without anxiety let me 
tell you!)  I got her to grow.  Now she seems more independent than I 
and we have a better relationship than I ever could've imagined!

   My mother also seems to be happier with *herself* too.  So in the 
long run I think it benefits everybody.  It's not an easy task tho', 
just worth it.
                                               tlr

    60 by today's standards is not old.  Strongly suggest that you
    try to gently prod her into getting a part-time job.  Even the
    local Dunkin Donuts are paying $7/hour and working 15 or 20
    hours a week would take the pinch off both of you, and the work
    isn't that hard.  It would be good for her to get out and
    socialize more and feel more self-sufficient.
    
    I empathize with your situation.  It's difficult to separate
    from our parents.  I have of late been working myself through
    a similar but different situation.  I know for my own emotional
    and physical well-being, I have to learn to say "no".  It's
    never an easy path since it is littered with guilt.

    Most jobs in the service industry want you on your feet for long
    shifts--this is physically demanding and may not be possible for
    your mother to handle.
    
    But work is good for the self-image.  Contributing to your own
    support is good; so's the incumbent socialization.  To people who
    lack office skills experience, teachers aide or librarian aide
    positions might be available.
    
    Sometimes the only way to realize you can take control of your life
    is discover you've done it.
    
    The money's a gut-wrenching worry, but it's a definite thing and
    therefore easier to count than the personal support you give.
    
    If I'm right, I think people are telling you that you can't let
    anyone make this an issue of you having to ask your father to send
    her more money (or you have to make it up).  Somebody once told
    me "You have to think of yourself first", which helped me enormously
    when I thought of it as I have to take care of myself so that I
    *can* take care of other people.  (Admittedly, it helped a bunch
    to find out I wouldn't have to worry about buying her a house.)
    
    'Course, my mom was already supporting herself and my sisters, and
    luckily there was some small buffer to carry her over while she
    got settled into this working.

    It is true that a lot of the service jobs require you to be on your
    feet.  But there is this job I use to have in High school that required
    you sit down for your whole 4/5 hour shift and you could only work
    there part time.  I worked at Fotomat from 3-7 and an older woman 
    (60's) worked the morning shift from 10-3.  She loved the job because 
    she met so many people, it was easy and added a little extra money
    to her budget.
    
    We got along great too despite the age difference.
    
    Just an idea!

If your mother is fearful of committing to a regular schedule every week,
a solution for that would be contacting a TEMP agency.  This would allow
her the option of exploring what is available, not committing all her time,
giving her the option of not working when she felt "hemmed-in", and maybe
giving her self-esteem a boost!  She can register with several agencies to
give her many choices.   

I am sure she will give you all sorts of *reasons* why the above wouldn't
work.  I went through a whole load when trying to help my sister recover
from a slump she was in.  Anything I suggested, she had a *good* reason 
why it wouldn't work!  She ended up finding her own way.  I would like to
offer the fact that if you can, try to "distance" yourself from the solution
process.  

I also agree with the theory of not making yourself the "go-between".  Wouldn't
it be the function of her divorce lawyer to re-negotiate the settlement?

If your mother has a full schedule already, the TEMP job thing might not be
a viable option.  But, just another idea to throw in the hopper....

justme....jacqui

>    I am sure she will give you all sorts of *reasons* why the above wouldn't
>work.  I went through a whole load when trying to help my sister recover
>from a slump she was in.  Anything I suggested, she had a *good* reason 
>why it wouldn't work!  She ended up finding her own way.  I would like to
>offer the fact that if you can, try to "distance" yourself from the solution
>process.  
 
    
    You are so right about this.  I have been working this angle for
    about 10 years with no results except her panicking when I bring
    it up.  I have pretty much given up.  Everything is either too hard
    physically, too challenging technically (typing, switchboard), or
    she would be expected to work too fast and she doesn't think she
    can.  She can't seem to hear that everyone has a learning curve
    and is not expected to be 'up to speed' the first day.  I'd love
    to get her a receptionist job at a place like DEC where she could
    dress up and talk with people who need help.  She is great at helping
    people find resources. 
    
    She would be very scared about having to check all the badges as
    people walked in though.  She would stay awake at night worrying
    about someone getting by while she was talking with someone else.
    If a lot started happening all at once, she'd shut down and feel
    unable to function.
    
    I keep trying to say that you learn as you go, things get easier,
    and people sometimes have to wait.   

    Perhaps volunteer work as opposed to a paying job would seem less
    scary to her?  There's something about not getting paid that makes
    the whole thing seem more relaxed.  The hours would probably be
    more flexible.  She might feel under less pressure, because she
    could pretty much just leave without it being a big thing like quiting
    a job.  The local United Nations store here seems to be
    staffed exclusively by women volunteers, many of them past 80 (at
    least), and they _slowly_ make change and write up receipts, and so
    forth.  Maybe you could hunt up something like that?  How about
    a foster grandparents project?  An aide in a seniors' center?
                                 
    Only you can judge this, but you may have to be a bit tough and
    insist that she at least try something.  (Why does this remind me
    of a mother leaving her kid at kindergarden the first day.)

    Holly, these are pretty crippling fears for your mom.  How about
    a little counselling?  Some places offer a sliding scale--you pay
    what you can afford, and it can be as little as a dollar or two.

    How about if, instead of a "real" job, she took up babysitting?
    (With any luck she could end up as a broker for a stable of
    babysitters, but don't tell her *that*.)
    
    Lots of people would kill for a babysitter.
    
    							Ann B.

    We've been the counseling route.  I had high hopes.
    
    Maybe I'll mention kidcare again...sure is a market for it.
    
    I appreciate this support.  Even when you suggest things I've tried,
    it's a kind of validation for me that my thinking is not off-base.
    More suggestions are welcomed...

    I have this image of your mother as not having any interests that
    would bring her out into the world at all.  No discussion groups,
    no church socials, etc.  Is that right?  Maybe easing her into
    something like that would be a little step?  You could take her
    to a few things that you think might appeal to her?  Having you
    along would make her feel more comfortable, then perhaps she might
    feel able to go alone later?  Is there someone else around (her
    sister? a neighbor?) who might like to go with her?
    

    <Speaking for myself> I have finally come to the conclusion that
    there are people who seem to want/need/ask for help, but that what
    they really want to do is piss-and-moan. I have an aunt like this.
    She's a great lady at 87, but she complains and complains about
    <X>. So I'd try to suggest routes for her to pursue. For the last
    (say) 10 years, she has had a reason (is saying "excuse" a judgement?)
    for why each suggestion wasn't viable. That's a LOT of "reasons
    Why Not" ! I finally realized that she didn't want suggestions -
    she wanted to complain!
    
    NOW what I do is listen to her complain, make sympathetic noises,
    and wait for her to do whatever it was she really wanted to do in
    the first place! If she actually comes out and asks for some kind
    of reasonable help, I jump right in and help. OTherwise, I just
    sort of lend moral support.
    
    I think we all do this to some degree - I mean, haven't you complained
    about something and wanted someone else just to say "AWWWWWWWW,
    you poor kid." instead of giving you a Knute Rockne speech, thumping
    your shoulder pads and sending you out on the field again?!?
    
    Sometimes what people may be looking for is a combination of "help"
    and some validation of their complaints. Which isn't to say that
    *sometimes* we all don't need a good, swift kick! ;-)
    
    You know your mom better than most folks, Holly - go with your
    instincts. But remember, you can't help anyone else unless you
    take care of yourself first.
    
    --DE
    

    re: .17 --
    
    Your note jolted a reminder out of my brain -- there was a best-selling
    book about just this thing when I was in college or thereabouts --
    Remember _The_Games_People_Play?  (Dr. Tom Harris, I think.) One of the
    first pop psychology books? 

    It's actually a pretty useful book for certain kinds of interactive
    problems.  In situations such as Dawn describes, the solving of a
    particular problem is not the real point of the interaction as far as
    at least one of the parties is concerned.  The point is to get someone
    to agree with you about how hard it is and tell you how brave you're
    being.  
    
    Holly, your mother might be feeling that way.  Or she might be feeling
    that she has had to nurture everyone else all her life, now she's
    the one who's going to get some nurturing from you.   
    
    --bonnie

    GAMES PEOPLE PLAY was Berne, I think. It's many years old now, but
    I still find it applicable. Bonnie's right - the goal of whatever
    game is being played isn't always what *you* think it is. (And we
    all play games a lot, really)
    
    Having names for them really helps, too. You can say to youself,
    "OH! Right! He's playing 'Let's You and Him Fight'" and then you
    can choose whether or not to play.
    
    (Note: Now, just because I said "He's playing..." doesn't mean I
    said "Women never play games")
    
    --DE
    

    re: .19 --
    
    Oops, you're right, Berne is the gamesman, so to speak.  Harris
    is "I'm Okay, You're Okay."
    
    Unless my brain is asleep at the wheel again!
    
    --bonnie

    No, Bonnie - I think "You're OK" this time!
    
    :-) :-)
    
    --DE
    

    Thanks, Dawn, I think you're okay too . . . 
    
    Holly, a friend of mine who is caring for an older parent says there's
    a book out dealing with the issues.  It's specifically aimed at
    women who are trying to care for a mother while raising kids, but
    would probably have a lot of stuff that applied to anyone caring
    for a parent.
    
    Apparently it spends quite some time on the issue that in a
    relationship the WIFE is the one who cares for the aging parent no
    matter whether the parent is HIS mother or HER mother. 
    
    Do any of our librarians out there know what book she might mean? 
    Even though Neil's parents are in good health, they're approaching
    their eighties and it's something we might well have to deal with.
    
    --bonnie

    WELL, IN TWO MORE YEARS YOUR MOTHER SHOULD START COLLECTING SOCIAL
    SECURITY BENEFITS.  FROM WHAT I CAN GATHER ABOUT YOUR MOTHER IS
    THAT HER PROBLEM IS NOT REALLY MONEY BUT SOMETHING ELSE.  DO YOU
    THINK SHE WOULD SEE A COUNSELOR?  
    
    I'M 55 YEARS OLD AND I HAVE A SISTER WHO IS GOING TO BE 62 IN APRIL
    AND SHE TOLD ME SHE STILL FEELS LIKE A YOUNG GIRL.  I'M STILL GOING
    STRONG, MYSELF.  MY MOTHER WAS GOOD UNTIL AGE 83 AND SHE IS NOW
    88 THIS YEAR.  SHE WANTS ALL OF US THERE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.  IT
    IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT.
    
    I HOPE YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS FOR 25 YEARS OR MORE. 
    TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

Holly,

  Like everyone else here, I think that you should avoid being the
messenger between your mom and dad.  it would be great if your mom would
sign on for volunteer work or hunt up work.  In her situation, work would
be best but .... I know a number of women, 50+, who never worked or stopped
working decades ago, and find the idea of hunting up a job quite
terrifying.  And working gives the ultimate payoff -- you get to live a
longer, heathlier life. 

  So here are some sneaky strategies that may help her out:

  o Be sure she gets a local newspaper that includes want ads. If she 
    doesn't have/want a subscription, abandon a paper there now and them.

  o Drag home any 'local freebee paper' that covers her town.
    These papers almost always include local job and volunteer ads.

  o Call the local volunteer agency and ask them to send
    info about local organizations that need volunteers. Give your mom's
    name and address.

  o Call the local Manpower and other temporary work 
    agencies and ask them to send info.

  o When you are out together, stop and read the local bulletin boards with
    the index cards saying "lady cleans houses" and "lady to babysit." (If
    necessary, "seed" the board earlier in the day with the kind of work
    your mom might feel able to tackle.)

  o Volunteer to go job-hunting with her?  One thing -- people who have
    not hunted for jobs often have queer notions about getting a job ---
    like, you apply and then wait weeks for them to call.  The actual 
    method is to dress presentably, then visit ten establishments.

  o Mention your own bills, too,  She might have some unrealistic notions
    about how much money you have available. (Also, if she realizes your 
    budget is finite, a bit stretched, it might get her thinking.)  A wild
    move to give her a new perspective -- borrow $20 from her to tide you 
    over for a week. 

  o Does she complain much about her health and strength.  You might 
    respond to such a complaint by mentioning that if she started working,
    she would probably feel better.  So many studies show that people
    who retire 'completely' do not flourish.

What happened with the counseling you mentioned? Did she not like it, or did 
nothing positive happen?  

Also wondering. Have you talked this over with your dad?  He might have 
some useful insights about her feelings.  Our parents know each other in 
ways that we children do not.  My mother's comments about my father were
often surprising -- "true observations" but from a viewpoint that a child, 
even one of 40, would not have.

My mom made no move to get a job for years after my father died, 
but when an aunt called up with a job offer, she took it instantly.  Meigs

    Re: .24
    
    >Call the local volunteer agency and ask them to send info about
    >local organizations that need volunteers.
    
    United Way is a good place to start, since they work with so many
    different organizations.  (My grandmother, who is 80+, works part-time
    as a volunteer coordinator for United Way.)
    
    As with any job-hunter, it's a good idea to work up a list of skills.
    From an earlier description, it sounded like a reception-type job
    was something your mother would be good for.  What about part-time
    work in the local library (now there's a nice, non-threatening
    environment)?  Manning phones/desk for a historical society?  Does
    she have any saleable skills, even domestic ones?  Could she give
    lessons in anything - piano, knitting, cooking?  Many parks and
    recreation departments organize programs for the community, though
    I'm not sure how much instructors are paid.  Or check with local
    crafts stores about setting up or advertising lessons.
    
    Looking back, I think I've been guided by the idea of making the
    job less like work and more like community service.  If the problem
    is going out to "work," you're probably better off circumventing
    the issue than trying to 'bring her about' to the idea.

    I'm mulling over some of the suggestions.  They are appreciated!
    This is not something I expected to be able to get support with,
    being an only child.                                           
    
    Holly

    Holly,
    
    You might want to give her a copy of "What Color Is My Parachute",
    or if she won't read it, read it yourself.  The book has a great
    deal of emphasis on changing careers or on getting a career later
    in life.  It includes information on how to include your everyday
    skills in a resume, so that they show up even if you have never
    held a paying job.  Perhaps your mom would feel more secure in looking
    for work if you could show her ON PAPER that she has marketable
    skills.  Almost everyone has some of these, and I would be surprised
    if your mother didn't.  Anyone capable of, say, managing a Girl
    Scout troup, is likely to have the skills necessary to manage a
    group of sales clerks.   (I think it might take *more* skill to
    manage the Girl Scouts ;-)
    
    Rita