Conference turris::womannotes-v1

The power of creation is in woman 

The Goddess is the ulitmate creator. 

    	Are you serious, Jim???  Oh my, this is gettin more humorous
    	every day!!!!
    
    						Carla
    

    re .2
    
    He's afraid it's true!  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
    
    It must be horrible to fear you're cut off from the well-spring
    of creativity.  ("But son, there's no sense in spending all that
    money on a college degree.  Now, your sister has to because she'll 
    be a mom someday."  :-) )
    
    But, it's your own fault--if you read all those lines, you'd realize 
    that they also say that the Goddess loves you too.
    
                                
    
    
    					s: "You dance divinely."
    			       		h: "I do what I can."

    In other words, women have to behave before men will?
    
    Or even better, all women have to behave the way some men want them
    to before those men will behave too?
                        

    re:.6
    
    Except that comments like the ones Jim quoted, as sexist as they
    seem superficially, serve a very good purpose: they make you think
    about certain things that get taken for granted.
    
    Let's look at it from your side first.
    
    If someone was to say, "The power of creation is in men," any number
    of women would claim it's sexist by excluding women. And they'd
    be right. And yet, saying, "The power of creation is in women,"
    doesn't strike them as being sexist by its implicit exclusion of
    men. There's a double standard at work here.
    
    But...
    
    For so long, the status quo has excluded women, and many phrases that
    people take for granted implicitly support this status quo. What
    appear to be sexist_in_favor_of_women statements often make one
    think about the status quo statements and what they imply.
    
    --- jerry

    	A statement like "The power of creation is in women" merely
    	speaks about a power that exists in women (and says nothing
    	whatsoever about whether or not that power also exists in
    	men.)
    
    	Saying that "The Goddess is the ultimate creator" implies
    	(to me) that there is more than one creator (and that the
    	author merely considers the Goddess superior in some way to
    	the other(s).)  That is a religious belief and/or a matter of
    	opinion (to which the author is well entitled.)
    
    	The same logic that says the above statements are sexist would
    	*also* say that "Black is beautiful" is racist (because it
    	_excludes_ the white race and because one could infer from it
    	that the author meant to say that "White is NOT beautiful.")
    
    	In my opinion, there is nothing sexist or racist about wanting
    	to compliment one's own sex or race when one has been raised
    	in a culture that has systematically denegrated that sex or
    	race (the way that both women and blacks have been denegrated.)

    Welcome back, Suzanne. 
    
    Jim, I don't find anything offensive about Peggy's statements
    re. the Goddess. They help me remember that other viewpoints
    than my own atheistic one are alive and well and helping people
    live better. A notion my intolerant self forgets if not reminded
    frequently. 
    
    Dana

    
    	Gee, I wonder who he was talking to (in .10) -- I don't recall
    	anyone saying that "woman is the ultimate creator."  What was
    	quoted in .1 was that "the Goddess is the ultimate creator."
    	That's quite different.
    
    	The analogy I used was that saying "The power of creation is
    	in woman" is not mutually exclusive of the belief that "The
    	power of creation also exists in man."

    Re .8, well said, Suzanne, and, in my opinion, exactly the right
    viewpoint.
    
    I thought this notesfile was more interesting over a year ago than
    it is today.....before so many men took it upon themselves to read
    it only to continually write in and nit-pick.  Some of you men are
    .....yawn.....so boring.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .12, well said, Lorna, and, in my opinion, exactly the right
    viewpoint.
    
    I thought this notesfile was more interesting over a year ago than
    it is today.....before so many women took it upon themselves to read
    it only to continually write in and nit-pick.  Some of you women are
    .....yawn.....so boring.
    
    Martin.

    

    Well actually I was just reading some of last years notes and I
    do agree that I think that the file was more interesting a year
    ago before all the nit picking and bickering and fighting started!
    
    Bonnie

    What I have found to be the most disapointing aspect of notesfiles
    is that, it seems to me, that the majority (or is it a loud minority
    - I don't know) of participants are more interested in how they
    can most wittily put each other down than they are in discussing
    life - or God(dess) forbid - TOPICS OF INTEREST TO WOMEN.
    
    We already have Soapbox for people who enjoy stating their views
    only to be ridiculed and attacked.  
    
    It's unfortunate that people should be made to feel that they need
    to have the wit of a David Letterman or the Not Ready For Prime
    Time Players before they can enter a reply in a notesfile.  Such
    a caring "community", so ready and willing to "value differences"!
    
    Lorna
     

    [<sniff> And I wasn't posting a year ago...time to take my epithets
    and drive home through this snow.]
    
    Is the statement "God is Love" a sexist statement?  Is "The
    Goddess is the ultimate creator" a sexist statement because it violates
    a commandment?                            [:-), but food for thought]
                                               
    I've seen a lot of nitpicking aimed at women.  I've been a person
    who was criticised and ridiculed endlessly by some men who wanted 
    to get me to shut up for no other reason but that they wanted to
    be the center of attention, so when I see men nitpicking about women's
    statements, I see this as being the same thing happening.  
    
    I reply entirely too much (lucky for all of us, most of them don't
    make it into the notesfile!).  Jim replies far more (at least for
    the past 3 days).  Why?  Is he trying to make his voice heard over
    ...what?  And why?  And is this of interest to women?
    
    I'm sorry, but I really do think that this is a topic of behavior
    to women--the fact that bickering happens, not the bickering itself.
    
    And I don't see "The Goddess ..." statement to be sexist at all--it's
    a statement of a person's religious belief.
    
    What irritates me most is that Peggy seems to be taking heat publicly
    for matters of personal preference and for a polite request.  Why
    do we stand for this?!

    	This topic is just *asking* for disharmony.  Thanks again to
    	Jim for helping to perpetuate the Plague of the Nits.
    
    	First of all, for you inherent bickerers, it doesn't matter if 
    	you call the ultimate creator a HE or a SHE.  It just IS.  Are 
    	you arguing just for arguing's sake????  Let Peggy espouse her
    	beliefs without nitting about what she chooses to call them.
    
    	CAN'T THINGS JUST BE DISCUSSED WITHOUT *ALWAYS* LAPSING BACK TO
    	CONSTANT ATTACKING OF PEOPLE AND BELIEFS????
    
  					Carla  (who_is_really_getting_fed_up)
    

    This topic is generating more heat than light. I am write-locking
    it.
    
    Liz, wearing a thick moderator's hat