Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    A weak man is one who cannot face himself as he is, who cannot admit
    when he is wrong, who cannot express his emotions, who does not
    act responsibly toward his family....  just one woman's opinion
    of course.
    Mary

A weak man is one who cannot admit that he has weaknesses, mainly because
he isn't strong enough to want to look within and to accept that his choices
have consequences.

Penny

    a Weak man is one who cannot manage to hug and kiss his sons.
    a Weak man is one who cannot say "I'm sorry" when he is wrong
    a Weak man is one who hits the woman he is with because she
    disagrees with him or damages his things.��
    a Weak man is one who cannot make an effort to try and understand
    where ��the woman he care��s fro�m is coming from� and share
    his feelings with her and hers with him
    a Weak man cannot cry
    a Weak man cares so much for image  that �he doesn't connect
    with real feelings
    a Weak man cares more for image than substance
    
    Bonnie 

    In life there are two paths...essentially.
    There is the one that goes up the mountain, nearly straight...
    And there is one that goes spiralling up the mountain, roundabout...
    
    If the top of a mountain is a man's (or woman's) goals, and the
    strong person takes a more direct course, although it is harder,
    towards their goals (ideals, desires, wishes, hopes, dreams...)...This
    doesn't mean they do stupid things...this means they address the
    things it is necessary to address, and take an offshoot or a sideroad
    if there are obstructions they can't get by
    
    Then the weaker person is the one who denies their goals, or fears
    the obstacles in the path so strongly they will not try the steeper
    way for they fear they will fail.  
    
    The weakest people of all are so afraid of failing, they never try.
     If they never try, they have no chance of success.  They assure
    themselves they could have done it if they had tried, but they just
    "didn't feel like it" now.  ...
    
    And, in their eyes, one failure constitutes all failures, and further
    prevents trying.  They do not learn from their mistakes, they do
    not "debug" themselves by looking inward, and they expect their
    friends/family to overlook the negative aspects within themselves
    as well as they have managed to do...
    
    (kinda off in left field...eh?)
    
    -Jody
    

    Jody-
    
    (kinda off in left field?) Not at all.  A real good analogy.
    
    Marty

                                                                      
    
    
    A weak man is one who hides behind a mask of "macho".  Give me the
    quiet, sensitive man who does not have to prove anything because
    he is comfortable with himself.  This man is no power game player.
    

    
    	Judging from the replies I feel I am a very strong young man.
    But, I want to know if women consider jealousy a weakness in men?

    
    
    Re:.7  If you mean do I think jealousy is a general weakness in men?
     The answer is no.
    
    	   If you mean do I consider a man who demonstrates jealousy
    in a relationship as being weak- absolutely.  Jealously stems from
    insecurity.
     
           It doesn't belong in a healthy relationship.
    
    
    Mary Ann

    
    re: .4
    
    Jody,
    
    I don't think I could have said it any better.
    
    
    re: .7
    
    I think a person who acts or reacts out of jealously has alot of
    basic insecurities, be in a man or a woman.
    
    

    We all feel jealous sometimes though.  The strong man ADMITS he
    feels jealous, allows you to reassure him, and forgets about it.
    The weak man hides his jealousy inside, allowing it to corrupt the
    relationship.

    
    	re: 10
    
    	thanks, you just reassured my strength, whew! (wiping forehead)
    
       	I think men express jealousy much more often than women. I've
    seen it, done it and heard about it. Yeah I've heard it stems from
    being insecure, but I know I can give others the feeling of security
    even tho I possess the jealous trait.
    
    	Sorry to get of the subject. Curiosity got to me. Keep going
    pls this is interesting.
    
    	Dave

    A weak person uses their jealousy to control a relationship.

	I agree with most of these responses, especially the ones that talk
	about a weak man not being able to admit to his own mistakes.

	One I disagree with.  Someone made a comment about a man who cannot
	cry is weak.  I think someone who looks upon a man's crying as a
	sign of his weakness is wrong.  But a lot of men (and I think of my
	father in particular, a genuinely kind man who cares deeply for other
	people) are raised in a way in which they don't feel any relief from
	crying.  It doesn't help relieve them from stress, or pain, or
	anguish.  They deal with these things in other ways.

	I can't remember crying since I was a very young child.  I don't
	avoid it because it wouldn't look manly.  I just don't remember being
	in a situation where I had a desire to cry.  I remember times of
	anger, frustration, pain, loneliness.  I generally sought answers
	in conversation with others, or in prayer to God.  But, as with my
	father, I don't have much need to cry.  Perhaps that is only because
	my life generally has been good, I don't know.  But I don't think
	men who fail to cry are weak; just that a failure to cry is no great
	strength, either.

    
    
    
    
    Is a person who forgives bad behavior weak??  Are you weak if you
    believe enough in someone to understand, and forgive, thier mistakes??
    Is a person weak for trying to keep love alive, maybe even against
    all odds???
    
    

    re .16
    
    my questions exactly!!!!!!!!
    
    i dont see why this is aimed at men as i am guilty of all of the
    above at sometime or another and i dont think that said behaviour
    is girlish or acceptable in a women but not a man.
    
    
    kelly

    thank you, Kelly.

    re .14 >belief in a supreme being
    
    I disagree. 
    
    Dana Charbonneau

< Note 651.19 by SPMFG1::CHARBONND "What a pitcher!" >


>    re .14 >belief in a supreme being
    
>    I disagree. 
    
Actually, .14 is true for certain personalities, especially those of the
addictive or dependant type.  Your supreme being does not have to fit the
Judeo-Christian mold, however.  It can be your couch, if that works.  I
have seen many men (& women), whose lives have been ruined by their insistence
that they could make it through life on their own resources.  In that case,
then I have to agree with Gail - dependance on a higher power can be a
liberating and strengthening experience.

/Mike

    Re .14
            
    > A weak man is someone who can not live up to responsibiity, even
    > though on the outside it may appear they are.

    > A weak man is someone who does not believe in a supreme being,
    > because they feel they must be the controller of their life.
    
    A weak man is someone who cannot take any responsibility for his
    own life and blames all of his woes on the will of a supreme being.
    
    Belief in a supreme being can cut both ways.
    
    					MJC O->

    I agree, ... a strong man accepts responsibility for his own actions.

    
    
    Although I have reasonably strong spiritual beliefs, I'd rather
    not turn this into a discussion on God.  
    
    My goal, to be quite frank, is a sanity check, I have ben exposed
    to some  psychological shenanigans and need to find out if what
    I believe is common, or what I've been told is true.  
    
    I agree with the previous note, that states the premise of "weak"
    people is not limited to men, yet somehow sensitive men are percieved
    as weak by some women.  Conversly sensitive women are considered
    to be just dandy by most men (hmmmmmm is this sexist????)
    
    "Weakness" or one perception of it ( as stated in this note ) seems
    to be much more objective than I had believed.  
    
    I haven't heard ( seen??) one response that finds real men weak,
    yet plenty to say that the "mucho macho" *crap* is dead, thank God
    (O NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ) :-).
    
    
    
    

    re: forgiveness
    
    It seems to me that an inability to forgive (at all) is an indication
    of a problem and, in the context of this discussion, of weakness.
    
    I'm not sure how to state this next "bit" well, so please bear
    with me (or, as Phil would say, help me out here. . .)
    
    I think the ability to forgive a transgression while incorporating
    appropriate discipline is an indication of even greater strength.
    What I'm trying to poke at is that, while forgiveness is "divine"
    one who suffers repeated offenses and yet does no more than forgive
    (does nothing to prevent further offense), is in a relatively 
    weaker position.
    
    Steve
    

    A strong man lifts heavy objects, kills little furry animals, and
    spits (see Dave Barry :-) ).
    
    By whatever backwards logic, this sort of man seems to appeal to
    many women....
    
    DISCLAIMER: I am not suggesting that ANYONE in this conference is
    like this. In fact, it would seem contradictory. But I have been
    "passed over" in favor of EXACTLY this type.
    
    dov
    

    re .7, .8, .9
    
    Jealousy is only a weakness if it has no basis. If one is angry
    because an SO is looking outside the relationship, etc. many people
    would feel this justified. While I had all jealousy "burned out
    of me" by a rather scarring experience, I can at least say that
    my jealousy was not unfounded.
    
    You are only insecure if you are jealous over trivialities, effectively
    tying your SO down for no apparent reason (other than distrust).
    I believe this is what people mean when they speak of jealousy.
    
    I believe there are two modes of caring for someone. You can care
    in a possessive or non-possessive way. The possessive course is
    hot and heady; it is a fire. The non-possessive is gentle, relaxed,
    and very comfortable. I don't like to put value judgements on people's
    feelings; I have been through both kinds, and will probably never
    again feel possessive in that way, but that does not imply that
    possessive love is not as strong, or is somehow inferior.
    
    Well, back to the mainstream of this note :-)
    
    dov

    re: .26 (?) Dave B.
    
    But I *am* suggesting that anyone who likes Dave's style and hasn't
    read that column, check it out.  For fans, 'tis truly a gem.
    
    Steve (never far from buffoon mode)
    

    re .14
    
    > belief in a supreme being
    
    Nonsense. Exactly the opposite can be said, with a stronger arguement.
    A weak <person> must use belief in some god as a comforting stabilizer
    in an otherwise frightening world.
    
    Why do you assume that non-believers think they are in control?
    Perhaps we just know that no one is in the driver's seat.
    
    > doesn't need toys....
    
    I like toys. Computers, stereos, other things that stimulate me. I may be a
    materialist bastard, but that doesn't make me weak. The things listed
    were "status" type thingies. I guess I could buy into that concept
    "need status toys to look good." But hell, a nice, powerful car
    is a lot of fun -- I don't know. Now, if you say "needs toys to
    feel self-worth" then I definitely agree.
                                           
    dov

    Weakness.  Hmmm.
    
    A weak man is a man who is too afraid to acknowledge his own fear,
    his own unhappiness, his own vulnerability.  He is mortally terrified
    of exploring his own feelings.
    
    Since he refuses to know those needs and weaknesses are there, he
    cannot let anyone know the "real him" -- all we ever see of him
    is an outline, a sketch of a person who doesn't exist.  And the
    sad part is that even he himself never sees more than the sketch.
    
    While women do this too, if you are seeking the fastest way for
    this woman to identify someone as a "weak man", this is it.
    
    Lee

    Oh, I dunno, Bob....I took this note as a "what do you see as
    a "weak man" - as opposed to the stereotypical "weak man", who
    is stereotypically "henpecked" - ?"
    
    Like: a weak man is one who, when his wife calls him at the bar
    when he's drinking with his buddies, leaves to go home. 
    
    When she asks him to take out the garbage, he does it.
    
    He vacuums the rugs. He agrees with his wife - in public. Better
    yet, in front of his male friends.
    
    Yup, ya know who wears the pants in *that* family!
    
    I think this note is more along the lines of making *YOUR* point;
    "weakness" in a PERSON is more along the lines of a weakness of
    human character - not a strereotypical milquetoast.
    
    Dawn
    

    
    
    Thanks Dawn, I was going to reply to Bobs' comment, but couldn't
    quite find the right words.
    
    
    
    

    All men have weaknesses,
    All men have strengths,
    All women have weaknesses,
    All women have strengths.
    
    They are defined individually, by a variety of circumstances.
    They are perceived differently, from the self to those interacting
    with the self.
    Some of those perceptions are objective, some are subjective.
    Some of them are True, some are False - but they all comprise the
    makeup of the individual.
    
    Some self-perceptions are strengths, some are weaknesses.
    How they manifest themselves in reality tells the tale.
    With an adequate passage of Time, the weaknesses and strengths 
    are revealed; perhaps from which new weaknesses or strengths evolve.
    
                                                   Marvin

    I tend to think that a boy who has been taught never to cry has
    been deliberately weakened.  Also, a girl who has been taught to
    cry rather than solve a problem has been deliberately weakened.
    
    Crying has health benefits.**  So does self-reliance.  They aren't
    necessarily exclusive states, except in some people's minds.
    
    If these replies have dictated a rigid code, then they aren't
    succeeding.  There is strength in diversity.
                                  
    
    **[I think with crying you get an HMO, but with self-reliance you
    get Blue Cross.  Dental not included.  :-) ]

RE: .16

"Is a person who forgives bad behavior weak?? ..."

No, I would call them *strong*...  However, forgiveness is not *always* the
best course.

RE: .19 Dana 'disbelief in God'

I don't think that not believing in God is necessarily weakness, but I'm curious
as to how that conclusion (for or against) comes about. 

Dana, do you feel that disbelief in God puts you in control of your life?
(I think that was Gale's point...???)

I do know weak people of all religions who use religion as a crutch.

I feel that jealousy is a weakness.  What is the point of jealousy?

RE: .29

"Why do you assume that non-believers think they are in control? Perhaps we just
know that no one is in the driver's seat." 

Theory has it that '"Humanists"' think that Mankind has everything under
control, or will, or can...

RE: .32

Are you saying that these traits are traits of weak men, or henpecked men,
or good men?  I am confused....

Jim.

    re .36  Jim
    
    agreed in toto.  your question re .32 -- I think Dawn was mocking
    the _stereotype_, but it took me a while to come to that conclusion.
    
    Lee

    
    
        A weak man (OR WOMAN) is one who cannot face and deal with reality.
     
        Lee,
         Have you known only men who could not express their own fear,
        unhappiness and vulnerability?
    
         From my personal experiences, a woman does NOT appreciate and
        respect a man revealing his shortcomings with respect to his
        self-belief. Men, don't fool yourselves by believing that they
        do! Once acknowledged, these shortcomings will probably and
        eventually be thrown back in your face in a very immature manor.
    
    
                                                         MATT HEALY
    
    

    rep .38
    
    Yes, good advice for women too.
    
    Now, where does this leave us.

    re .38
    
    I have known men who could express their fears, unhappinesses and
    vulnerabilities.  I count myself lucky to have known those men,
    and that they could confide in me.
    
�        From my personal experiences, a woman does NOT appreciate and
�        respect a man revealing his shortcomings with respect to his
�        self-belief. 
    
    Seems to me that it depends both on the woman and the insecurities
    the man is revealing.  If a man revealed to me that he was so insecure
    about his self-esteem and attractiveness to women that he felt forced
    to rape, I would appreciate his having told me, and I would run
    fast as hell away from him.
    
    On the other hand, when he says he is crippled with hatred for his
    abusive (in my opinion) father, and feels guilt at hating him while
    the father was dying of an excruciatingly painful cancer, I am more
    supportive.
    
    If he never faces his conflicting feelings (hates a person he "should"
    love, even when he "should" be sorry the man is dying, guilt, guilt)
    but rather buries them deep, so deep that he doesn't understand
    why ANY movie which has ANY character die of cancer leaves him angry
    and upset for days, well I think he has been weak in not facing
    his feelings and understanding them.  Instead the anger stays.
    
    "Weakness" is all relative, though.  We all have feelings we do
    not think we can face.
    
�        Men, don't fool yourselves by believing that they
�        do! Once acknowledged, these shortcomings will probably and
�        eventually be thrown back in your face in a very immature manor.
    
    I am sorry you have been hurt this way.  Is it better to now walk
    around protecting yourself so much that you do not allow anyone
    close enough to love you?  It's hard to have sex when your partner
    is unwilling uncover his balls...
    
    In Sisterhood-
    
    Lee

    
    
    Lee,
     Being the honest and straightforward person that I am, I have never
    had any trouble "uncovering my balls" figuratively or literally.
    Would you care to hear my thoughts on female frigidity? (Frigidity
    as in fear of sex, not necessarily cold of emotions.) There's a
    lot of that going around you know!
    
                                                          In Humanhood,
                                                          MATT
    
    
    
    

    re .41
    
�    Would you care to hear my thoughts on female frigidity? (Frigidity
�    as in fear of sex, not necessarily cold of emotions.) There's a
�    lot of that going around you know!
    
    If you'd like to start a note on "frigidity", please feel free.
    Looking through the directory, I do not see any notes already
    discussing that topic.  Brace yourself though: that word is a very
    harsh one and its use is likely to draw extreme flames (probably
    justifiably so) if not done v-e-r-y carefully.
    
�    Being the honest and straightforward person that I am, I have never
�    had any trouble "uncovering my balls" figuratively or literally.
    
    Seems to me that a person who does not want to voice his insecurities
    (with a woman he cares for) in fear that she will be unsupportive is
    a person who is protecting his "soft spots" verrry carefully.  
    
    Perhaps I was incorrect to assume that you follow the advice that
    you gave to "men" in your earlier note.
    
    In Sisterhood --      (for how am I to separate my 
                           female-ness from my humanity?)
    
    Lee

        re: .38
     
    	� From my personal experiences, a woman does NOT appreciate and
        � respect a man revealing his shortcomings with respect to his
        � self-belief. Men, don't fool yourselves by believing that they
        � do! Once acknowledged, these shortcomings will probably and
        � eventually be thrown back in your face in a very immature manor.

    Matt - don't fool yourself into thinking that all women will react
    in this manner.  From my personal experiences, I can assure you
    that there are women who feel very strongly that the ability
    and willingness to share self doubts is one of the characteristics
    of a "real" man.  In point of fact, I've known women who feel that
    the inability to share such feelings is one strong indication that
    the man wouldn't be able to support a truly intimate relationship.
    
    Steve