Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    	Just as I said in 528.7, I don't believe there is such a thing
    	as a "real woman" or a "real man" (for the reasons I mentioned
    	in that note.)  I think the whole concept has been a manipulative
    	gesture imposed on us by our culture.
    
    	We don't need to adhere to defined sexual roles set up by other
    	people (unless there are valid social, political and moral reasons
    	to do so, such as avoiding sexual roles that tend to oppress
    	another sex.)

    	In other words, I think that all women are real women (and all
    	men are real men) although some manifestations of womanhood
    	and manhood appeal to me more than others.  I have certain guide-
    	lines that I follow myself (in my own womanhood) but I don't
    	for a minute feel that any woman who doesn't follow my guidelines
    	is less of a woman (or that *I* am less of a woman because my
    	guidelines may not be the same as another woman's guidelines
    	for her own womanhood.)
    
    							Suzanne...

    Re .0 & .1, I agree with Suzanne.  I find the concept of a "real
    man" or a "real woman" to be offensive.  It implies (to me) that
    a man or a woman has to match a certain definition in order to be
    "real".  I agree that we're all "real" men and women.  Some women
    may act more like what would once have been considered masculine
    and some men may act more like what would have once been considered
    feminine, but that should be okay by today's standards.
    
    Lorna
    

    re: 0
    
    Lets see, if we are voting, we have 2 women , and 1 man trying to
    define a "real woman". :^)
    
    The problem I have with definitions, particularly when we talk of
    "real people", is that no matter what we say we want; there always
    the "Real possibility" of overlooking some key factor(s) which may
    negate part of (or all) of whatever list we may conjure up.
    
    Lists, definitions, by nature, tend to restrict rather than enable
    things to happen. To define "the perfect 10 (ala the movie '10'),
    would ignore the 'practical 10'. (A practical '10' is very enamored
    person with a '4' who's very satisfying). ;^)
    
    Perhaps the "real" question should be: 
    
    " Who is the person who is the 'real' match for me ? ".
    
     The next question might be: "For how long ?", since in the course
    of life, most people change in some way, with some changing  much
    more than others.
    
    Bob
    
        

    

    	RE:  .3
    
    	Bob, you have confused the issue here, I think.  Alfred asked
    	*women* how we would like to define "real woman."
    
    	This is not about "what kind of woman is perfect for you" unless
    	you think [flamethrower ready and aimed if you do :-)] that
    	any woman you are not attracted to is not a "real woman."
    
    	Once again, I'd like to say that there is no such thing as one
    	true definition of "real woman" or "real man."
    
    							Suzanne...

A real woman doesn't contain any artificial sweeetners or preservatives.

Martin.

    Re .5, Martin, does that mean you're only into little girls?
    
    Lorna
    

    re .6 Hi lorna, didn't you claim elsewhere to be 5'0" and 
    90 lbs. ?  hopeful ? ;-)

    Re .7, I was talking *age* or not *size*! 
    
    Lorna
    

    In my first draft of .0 I wondered in print if the question
    was even a valid question any more. I think some of these replies
    say in effect that it's not. I think I tend to agree. Terms like
    real woman and real men and the artificially limited definitions
    that go with then are out moded. People have, one hopes, grown
    beyond them. I did wonder if there were women who did have definitions
    for the term though. I wondered if there was a new ideal (or several)
    that women aspired to of if everyones was totally unique to themselves.
    
    			Alfred

    Perhaps it would be more interesting to explore the myths of the
    "real woman" and how we as individuals have had to reject many of
    them.
    
    We come from different times, and I'll bet most of the myths _I_
    learned (b.1963) and had to unlearn are very different from those
    of someone older (or younger) than me.  It would be interesting
    to see what we have in common and what is different regarding the
    change of societal role models.
    
    Lee

    That last reply sparked some memories.  Here is a list of the myths
    I was fed by sister, friends, boys, men, relatives, mom, et al,
    along the bumpy road to womanhood.
    
    	"Every real woman wants children."
    	"Every real woman wants to surrender to her man."
    	"A real woman should look like the Playmate of the Month."
    	"No real woman ever raises her voice."
    	"A real woman is a lady in the boardroom, and a whore in
    	 the bedroom."
    	"A real woman has dinner on the table for her family every
    	 night, and keeps her home spotless."
    	"A real woman should never win in competition against a
    	 man."
    	"Real women love flowers, jewelry, furs, and perfumes, but
    	 never demand that their man give these things to them."
    	"A real woman waits forever for her man."
    	"Real women are always ready and willing when their men
    	 want sex."
    	"A real woman always cares for her body, to remain as
    	 slim and appealing and lovely as possible, no matter what
    	 else is happening in her life."
    	"All a real woman needs is a good lay."
    
    By these mythical definitions, I never was, and never will be, a
    real woman.  I flunk all of them.  And I kicked myself for years
    because I flunked all of them.  Not a happy state of affairs.
    
    Marcia

    Re .11, well, I love flowers, jewelry and perfume, and I think I'll
    always *try* to keep my body slim and attractive, but you can forget
    most that other sh*t! 
    
    Lorna
    

    
    You know, I'd like to have five minutes alone with the people who
    thought all this up.
    
    DFW

    re .11
    
    Yup.  You hit all of the ones I can think of.
    
    Lee

    What a boring, passive life that type of so-called real woman would
    have to lead.

    Thanks for the responses, all.  And so I arrive at what I've come
    to define as a "real" person, male or female.  This definition is
    based on my experience of having to a) realize that I did not measure
    up to societal definitions of "real" 90% of the time and b) that
    I still felt "real" in spite of that fact.
    
    So to me a real woman or man is one who believes in her/himself
    and in the goodness of their gender and their souls no matter what
    the rest of the world thinks.  If a person takes for themselves
    the freedom to state, to behave, to live the feeling of "I am here",
    that person is real, and is for me invested with an inner authority
    all the trappings of any society cannot confer.
    
    This inner realness does not rely solely on confrontational behavoir
    in order to demonstrate itself.  In fact, the most pleasant surprises
    of my life have been getting gradually to know those individuals
    who were _not_ continuously confrontational, to learn that they
    were going about the business of life in their own merry individual
    ways and succeeding on their own terms.  I have been fascinated to
    learn of these unique manifestations of Self, a knowledge all the
    more precious and delightful to me when I am allowed to discover
    it, or am trusted with it--not have it shoved in my face, down my
    throat, up my ***.  Most of these delightful people do not shrink
    from confrontation or controversy, but neither do they exclusively
    court it.  They feel free to be themselves and they live that freedom.
    If that runs against "the system" (whatever system that happens
    to be) they confront; if it does not, they do not feel obligated
    to demonstrate that they're really just being themselves, not knuckling
    under.
    
    Hard to do?  Believe it!  I've certainly not succeeded in life by
    those terms--some places I do, others the remnants of negative social
    conditioning linger like barnacles that refuse to fall off.  But
    if I consider devoting my life to the process of becoming Real,
    I find my above definition of the goal a much more exciting and
    rewarding endeavor than worrying about all the goals I wrote down
    in .11.
    
    Marcia

    	RE:  .16
    
    	People who often "confront" are real, too.
    
    	You may just happen to be witnessing their feeling that they
    	are coming "up against" the particular "system" that inspires
    	them to confront.
    
    	If you want to allow *people* to be themselves, than the
    	individual's sense of "self" must include that s/he decides
    	which principles are worth fighting for (although those may
    	differ from the ones that anyone else might pick.)
    
    	You might be even more surprised to find that many "fighters"
    	have a very gentle side that can be seen nearly all the time
    	(when not faced head on with contradiction to principles that 
    	mean a great deal to the person.)
    
    							Suzanne...

    Someone once told me that "real women" should be perfectly satisfied
    with being kept pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen.
    
    I responded that if he could find a woman that was happy being kept
    solely and exclusively pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, then
    I'D marry her.  I knew that they were SO rare I'd never be taken
    up on the offer....
    
    -Jody
    
    
    

Holly, Holly, *Holly*! - Women who would adhere to all the do's and
    don't's of "real" womanhood are *never* bored!
    
    THAT's what soap operas are for!!!
    
    ;-)
    
    --DE
    

    Gee, everyone is in such a negative mood today?  How about something
    positive to say about our sex (not silly stereotypes that were probably
    designed to sell disposable diapers and laundry detergents).
    
    A real woman is simply a real human being.  Whether or not all of
    my chromosomes match.  Each real human being (not soap opera character
    or actor/actress in a 30-second TV blurb) is a unique individual,
    with their own talents and abilities which that human being is free
    to develop and explore, or to ignore, according to their own feelings
    and insights.

    Just a quick anecdote about my first wife's definition of what she,
    a "real woman", wasn't - a trash-taker-outer.
    
    Karen had this ironclad Eleventh Commandment: NEVER, BUT NEVER,
    SHALL THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEPOSITING
    OF TRASH IN THE BARREL.
    
    She didn't mind collecting it from various corners of the house;
    she didn't mind generating it herself, say, if she were cleaning
    out her closet or her bureau drawers; she didn't even mind getting
    yecchy hands, when the disposal would jam and she'd have to fish
    out all the half chopped-up garbage herself, since I was at work.
    
    However, once the trash was assembled, HER role ended. It didn't
    matter that she'd be tripping over it in the kitchen, that the cats
    were having dinner from the trash bags, that all she had to do -
    if it WERE her function - was to walk ten steps to the back stairs,
    aim for the barrel, and drop it.
    
    Nope, this was ALAN'S job, and damned if she was ever going to let
    ME get rusty at it. Practice, practice, practice. I earned my PhD
    in trash-throwing-out within months after our marriage (but then,
    again, I was always the studious type). It has served me well over
    the years. I am now licensed to throw out trash in all 50 states, and
    in Canada. Perhaps my next career move................
    
    It's been years since Karen and I divorced. She's remarried, and
    our daughter, Melissa, lives with her and her husband, Michael. Karen  
    and Melissa own three horses between them; the horses are stabled in 
    their back yard, and since horses will be horses, the animals
    generate a profuse amount of manure.
    
    I often get a kick when I drop over to see Karen or Melissa, and
    Karen is in the barn, cleaning out the horse stalls and depositing
    the droppings into a sealed container. I jokingly ask Karen how
    come Michael isn't responsible for this final step in the process.
    Karen pauses, considers for a moment, and then says, "Well, Michael
    still takes out the trash, but this is SHIT, it's MY job."
    
    Can't argue with that logic, I guess.
    
      Alan

    Re .21, .22, reminds me of certain chores in my relationships. 
    When I was married my husband liked to cook and I hated it.  He's
    a good, but very messy, cook who hates to clean up after himself.
     So, he did all the cooking and I did all the cleaning up and dishes.
     When we were first married his mother (a middle-aged Italian woman
    with many "old country" values) couldn't shut up about it.  She
    used to say, "Oh, my poor Bobby has to cook his own supper!"  I
    actually felt guilty for years because of her!  She made it quite
    clear that in her book *I* wasn't a *real woman*!  
    
    We actually had our chores quite evenly divided up.  I did take
    out the trash all the time because Bob hated that job.  I did all
    the laundry because I don't like other people doing my laundry anyway.
     He did all the cooking, lawn mowing, snow shoveling and car repairs.
     I did almost all of the cleaning.  Unfortunately, we fought about
    a million other things!  (He did the mending, too (sewing).  I hate
    to sew.)  I handled all the money (the poor trusting soul), and
    bought all the presents and cards that needed to be bought for any
    occasion regardless of whose family, his or mine.
    
    When I first moved in with my SO,  we went
    together to a wedding he had been invited to.  We stopped at a store
    to buy a wedding card and I automatically picked out a card and
    said, This should do.  He looked at me in outrage, and said, It's
    my friend.  I think I'm capable of picking out my own card.  I felt
    like a fool, but in 12 years of marriage Bob had *never* even bought
    a birthday card for his own mother!  I guess I thought men were
    incapable of picking out greeting cards!

    Lorna
    

	Ah yes, another myth:
	Real women pick out presents and write letters and thank-you notes.

	I don't know how many people thought I was just terrible for not
	thanking them for their wedding gifts.  I told Tom that they were
	his relatives and friends, therefore his responsibility.  So it
	didn't get done and I looked bad.

	..Karen

    Gee, in both of my relationships, my SO did the laundry - the laundry
    is "men's work".  
    
    Elizabeth
    

    Someone who isn't "fake".

    It is a shame that not many have answered this question maturely,
    analytically or seriously. Almost everyone (the women) were offended
    by the question. Sarchasm (sp?) showed all over.
    Does every such issue have to be dealt with as a "sexist issue"?

re: < Note 529.27 by HYEND::SGOLIKERI >
    I'm surprised by your use of the word "mature". Have you decided
    that people who took the question differently from the way you
    wanted them to are behaving immaturely? Are analytic and serious
    people mature, while people who joke and don't analyze are
    automatically immature?
    
    liz

    Re .27, the above question is not one that I, personally, think
    should be taken seriously.  However, I think that any human being over
    the age of 18 and having a vagina is a real woman.  I'm not being
    sarcastic or joking.  That's how I feel.

    Lorna
    

    Well, as I observed - flames and more..... I think defining a real
    woman can be considered seriously. Obviously, the definition of
    a "real" anything is pure perception on the part of the person
    providing the definition. The issue of "real" things, maybe women,
    men, a good figure (physical), jewelry, ..... anything is the way
    we human beings have defined it. It is interesting and "mind
    stimulating" to find out how various individuals define a "real
    woman" or "real man" or real anything. 
    
    As the initial question indicates, is the perception of a "real
    woman" different between the previous and current generation. I
    think that the "definition" of a real woman has changed drastically
    from the previous generation. 
    
    If the issue of a working woman, working mother, "juggling a career
    and a family" are issues in the limelight that are taken quite
    seriously, I do not see why the definition of a real woman cannot
    be seriously answered. It is just a way to see if we have "progressed"
    in our existence as "social" animals or not. Of course if a person
    makes a remark to be intentionally sexist, then answer strongly,
    but otherwise.........
    
    In the end I agree with a previous reply that all of us are
    "individuals" - no two of us being alike in all ways. As I said
    before, the definition of a real woman is the perception or
    expectations of the person defining a real woman.

    Dictionary states: Woman 1. An adult female human being.
    
    Breakdown:
    
    adult = <18 years of age
    female = chromosomes XX
    human = a person (as opposed to animal)
    being = existence
    
    Therefore, someone who is 18 or older that has XX chromosomes, is
    a person who is existing is a WOMAN.  To be REAL is to not be UNREAL.
    
    
    Oh, the other definitions for woman:
    2. Women collectively, womankind
    3. Feminine quality or aspect; womanliness
    4. A female servant (who will rip this one apart)
    5. A mistress, paramour (ditto for this one)
    
    BTW, who decided on age 18?
    
    Cathy

    [Part of] the problem is that `real woman' is a catch-phrase, like
    `states' rights' in the political sphere.  A `real woman' bears
    the same relation to a human female who has reached physical maturity
    as a `real man' bears to a human male who has reached physical
    maturity.

    						Ann B.

     I wrote this one under the prev. topic, "What is a real man", but
    as it is my serious answer, I'll blurb in the perinent part here...
    
    "Perhaps there is no definitive definition.  We each have our own
    points of view.  Many of the qualities I look for in a "real man", or
    would see in a "real woman" are similar - these are the qualities
    that make a person special in my
    eyes...warmth...trust...loyalty...generosity...caring...devotion to
    a cause that will make the world a better place...gentleness when
    needed...strength when needed...sensitivity...a certain sense of
    self...a dedication to always growing...and the incurable curiosity
    of a child."
    
    -Jody
    

	Could we substitute the phrase "ideal woman (or man)" for
	"real woman (or man)" ?  That seems to be what .0 wants to
	discuss.  What's wrong with changing the phrase to more
	accurately represent what people would like to discuss?
	I too feel that real means not fake.  

	...Karen

Re:    < Note 529.31 by JUNIOR::TASSONE "Nov. 9, Cruise time" > 
    
>    adult = <18 years of age

 
    Not to pick a nit, but how about ">= 18 years of age"
    
    Re:	.last
    
    It doesn't seem to matter what the discussion is titled.  If we
    said the "ideal woman", then we just get a stream of notes about
    how no woman can be "ideal" and how there is so much pressure to
    be "ideal", etc., ad nauseum.  It's a pity that there seems to be
    so much bickering about the phrasing used, rather than discussing
    the *meaning* of the topic.  
    
    Sigh,
    
    Dave
    

    
    re -1  and what does it *mean*.  When I saw the "real" wo/man
    questions, I kept thinking of the _Real_Men_Don't_Eat_Quiche_ book.
    I think the problem we're having with this discussion does stem
    directly from the presence of the word "Real" in the question?  
             
    We can all talk about qualities that we like or admire, but who
    of us can say what is "real"?  If folks aren't getting the
    answers they want, maybe they should look at the question.
    
    Justine

    > but who of us can say what is "real"? 
    
    Good question.  The only definition I've ever seen that I've *really*
    (pun completely intended, no violence, please ;-)) liked is the one
    from the children's story, The Velveteen Rabbit.  You know, the
    one about, "You become real when you've been loved and hugged enough
    that your fur wears thin and your stuffing comes out and you begin
    to look shabby...toys with sharp edges or that break easy never
    become real."
    
    Ok, parental types in the noting audience, can someone give me the
    exact quote?  I've given my copy of Velveteen Rabbit away (again).
    It's a wonderful story, and I recommend it even if you're an adult!
    
    Rita_and_Nubby_the_Stuffed_BunnyRabbit
    (we're *both* real - no sharp edges here!)
    

    > or = 18 is correct, no nit taken
    
    Cat

    I agree that the problem with getting the answer lies in the question.
    Doesn't Zen have a concept of "unasking" the question? That would
    be my reply. Ditto for "real man".
    
    Chuck

    Re:38
    
    Yes, "Velveteen Rabbit"... one of my favorite books then and now!!
    I seem to give copies away too without making sure I have one on
    my shelf!! One of the messages -- "you become real when...your fur
    wears thin and your stuffing comes out..." -- is that you don't
    have to be "PERFECT", whatever that means, to be real. Matter of
    fact, in most cases, the harder you try to be "perfect", the less
    likely you are to be "real" -- the real you. The idea of "perfect"
    people is usely something we've absorbed from sources outside ourselves
    -- tv, magazines, movies, parents, etc.
    
    Elisabeth
    (Thanks for reminding me I have to buy another copy of the book!)

    The question should be re phrased "Who is considered Real"
    
    To me, someone, of either sex, who is not afraid to be themselves
    whether she is considered susie homemaker, mr. fixit, or whatever
    they like doing,(myself, I don't do windows, prefer to be outdoors
    whenever possible, love gardening and sports, and I'm not afraid
    of what others may think.  I can be the perfect image of the outdated
    "woman" (and be sincere about it) when I choose to be or the "tomboy"
    when I get to "attacking the mountains when skiing.  Just don't
    be a phoney to impress someone.  Be yourself!
    
    
    "Dresses and Jeans"

        Easy.  *All* women are *real* women.

    The quote:  From The Velveteen Rabbit
    			or
    		How Toys Become Real		by Margery Williams.
    
    "What is REAL?" asked the Rabbit one day, when they were lying side
    by side near the nursery fender, before Nana came to tidy the room.
    "Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out
    handle?"
    
    "Real isn't how you are made," said the Skin Horse. "It's a thing
    that happens to you.  When a child loves you for a long, long time,
    not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real."
    
    "Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.
    "Sometimes," said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. "When
    you are Real you don't mind being hurt."
    
    "Does it happen all at once, like being wound up." he asked, "or
    bit by bit?"
    
    "It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse.  "You become.
    It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't often happen to people
    who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully
    kept.  Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has
    been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the
    joints and very shabby.  But these things don't matter at all, because
    once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't
    understand."
    
    ------------

    My definition of a "real woman"
    
    A real woman is three dimensional.
    She does not have two folds in her body and she does not crumple
    when you hug her.
    I don't think she has a staple in her belly button either but, my
    memory is a bit fuzzy.  
    oh, they may have been soft and warm too.  (1/2 :-) )
    
    					MJC

    Wow.  EXCELLENT answer to a question that I previously
    felt had no answer....
    
    
                                 Deb
    
    

    Thanks for typing that in, Mike...
    
    Rita
    

    Re: last few
    
    The Velveteen Rabbit makes me weep every time I pick it up again.
    Hidden in the book, I feel, is also a powerful psychological truth
    that possibly generated this note in the first place:  That in order
    to Become Real, one must be acknowledged (loved) by another.  It
    is the Child's love in the story that makes the toy become Real.
    It is also, in a very urgent sense, the love, respect, consideration,
    awareness and appreciation of people we consider important that
    helps make us feel like Real people, male or female.  Without that
    support, that love, we struggle against what feel like terrible
    odds to make ourselves feel like more than shadows.
    
    So even if the question ("what's a Real Woman/Man?") seems silly,
    the underlying motivation for asking it is not.  It can be an appeal,
    on a very deep level, for information that will allow us, all of
    us, to behave in ways that will bring us the love, respect,
    consideration, awareness and appreciation of people we consider
    important.
    
    Is this need to be loved/respected/considered/acknowledged/appreciated
    in order to become Real good or bad?  We'd find answers in both camps,
    I bet.  But whether or not it's good or bad, I feel it to be true,
    both from my own experience as a child and listening to my friends'
    experiences as parents.  This implies to me that we all have enormous,
    unrecognized power in our linkages with the others in our lives.
    Whether it's good or bad, it is well to recognize its existence,
    so that it can be used wisely.
    
    May we all help each other to become Real,
    
    Marcia