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-< Bodybuilding/Weight Training >-
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Note 12.0 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 18 replies
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 18 lines 20-JUL-1987 13:26
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We have a good number of notes partiers that happen to be women,
and I am feeling the need for a little friendly controversy.
Should women be bodybuilding? Can a women get "too big" without
steroid use? What, if any, impact has bodybuilding/weight training
had on your perception of your feminity? Guys how do you feel about
it?
Personally, I come from a family of mostly women except for my dad,
of course. They were very independent and creative to boot. So
my upbring is tended in that direction. I think that as long as
a women does not use steroids, no one should, and she is pleased
with her self-image then she should do what ever she likes, and
that includes serious weight training.
Arigato,
Vince
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Note 12.1 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 1 of 18
SQM::AITEL "Helllllllp Mr. Wizard!" 39 lines 20-JUL-1987 17:07
-< Let's talk about *people*. >-
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Ok, I'll bite! (but I usually don't ;-))....
I grew up thinking I was abnormal, fat or something. Sure I had
a few extra pounds at some times, but what I really was was a girl
who happened to naturally tend toward muscle, rather than tending
toward the very thin look that was in.
Now that I've lost most of my excess baggage, I find myself at
about 137 lbs, 5'4", and somewhere between 15 and 17% fat.
"Normal" women at my height are about 120 to 125 lbs and 20 to
25% fat.
Should women be bodybuilding? I'll try to keep my flame off, but
let me turn the question on you: should *people* be bodybuilding?
Can you see women as people? with all the variety that people have,
and with all the sorts of beauty that people can attain? When
people get into bodybuilding, they end up looking abnormal compared
to other people - bulging muscles are not normal looking on either
sex. But there's a beauty in the muscularity, skin and muscle tone,
bounce to the walk, confidence in manner that people get when they
do bodybuilding and do it well.
I've heard women in the gym looking at a guy and saying "Geez, he's
got such ugly big muscles, I wouldn't go out with anyone like *that*!"
It's not everyone's idea of masculine beauty. Likewise, a woman
with well-built muscles is not everyone's idea of feminine beauty.
And some of us like red-heads, and some of us like brunettes....
I've gotta say, more guys have tried to pick me up since I started
lifting, and it's not just the weight loss since I have been down
to this weight before. I think I'm a more attractive confident
person now.
Come to think of it, I haven't seen ANY women at my gym who looked
unfeminine. And the only woman I've seen photos of who did is
Bev Francis, and you gotta admit that a woman who can bench something
over 250, if I remember right, is a bit unusual.
--Louise
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Note 12.3 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 3 of 18
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 14 lines 20-JUL-1987 20:53
-< Trying to Be Helpful/Supportive >-
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Louise,
I understand your point. Yes there are quite a few women who do
not like "overly" muscular men (whatever that is). However, because
the sport is new to a lot of women, and society has built some
misguided sterotypes. I thought that a discussion of this kind
could break some sterotypes, provide some motivation, and give an
opportunity for experienced men and women alike to let beginning
women know what they have gone through, and that there is nothing wrong
with tending towards muscule. If the intent of the note is
unnecessary, or misguided, I am sorry.
Vince
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Note 12.4 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 4 of 18
ENGINE::MCDONALD 22 lines 21-JUL-1987 09:06
-< Great up to a point! >-
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I think it's terrific that women have gotten into bodybuilding.
But I think the competitions are bending and twisting the sport
into something which resembles men's bodybuilding. I think that
well built and cut women who use bodybuilding as a way to enhance
their feminine beauty (e.g. Rachel Maclish) are gorgeous. Whereas
the current trend in competition seems to be leaning towards the
women who have built themselves into V shaped, broad shouldered
parodies of men. In the recent movie (as an example) "Pumping
Iron II - the Women", this split in the competitive field was
the basis of the movie, Rachel was pitted against another woman
whose name I forget (a former power lifter) who weighed in at
around 185, who to me resembled a man in a bikini. She seemed to
be lacking in even the most basic feminine qualities. This I
don't agree with, but I respect the right of any woman to do so.
* MAC *
P.S. My wife is getting into it now, and I think it's great!
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Note 12.5 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 5 of 18
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 7 lines 21-JUL-1987 09:28
-< What a difference 3 years makes >-
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The powerlifter you are referring to Bev Francis was close to
165 lbs. for the contest. In three years she has made some radical
changes. She is down to a solid 140, and the IFBB seems to agree
with her improvement. She just won the IFBB World Pro. Check it
out in the lastest issue of Flex.
Vince
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Note 12.6 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 6 of 18
SQM::AITEL "Helllllllp Mr. Wizard!" 27 lines 21-JUL-1987 10:42
-< Standing firm, but w/o flames. >-
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I just exchanged some mail with Vince - I didn't mean to turn
my flame thrower on him! The topic has a tendency to pull my
chain, though. I think we'll see a lot more V-shaped women
in bodybuilding in the future, and we'll be redefining our
concepts of "feminine beauty" to include them.
By the way, I was wrong on my bench-press numbers for Bev Francis.
She pressed 350, not 250. I've seen photos of her, and she looks
like a powerlifter. Powerlifters of both sexes tend to look like
Mac Trucks. When she got into bodybuilding she had to do a lot
of reformatting - I haven't seen a recent photo but even the difference
between Bev at 185 doing powerlifting and Bev at 165 doing body-
building was pretty remarkable. I'll have to check out a current
photo of her.
The other thing to remember is that, outside of the gym and the
contests, bodybuilders don't go around with their muscles pumped
up all day long. They don't look like that walking down the
street, and they're not as ripped either unless they're doing
a contest. It's hard to tell what these women look like in street
clothing, but I've read a short blurb in one of the muscle mags.
Apparently a top bb woman was lazing around the beach in a
bikini, and overheard 2 women talking about her. They were saying
"Geez, she looks somewhat like those muscle-women, but not as
muscular or big."
--Louise (with flame-thrower firmly turned off)
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Note 12.7 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 7 of 18
VAXUUM::CORMAN 29 lines 22-JUL-1987 11:15
-< I *do* get touchy around this issue. >-
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Excuse me, but is this the 1950s or the 1980s? (Perhaps there's
no difference?)
It saddens me that, of all the
directions a discussion about bodybuilding and women could take,
it almost immediately becomes one of:
Male: "Well, if the woman is still *feminine*, I mean, if she'll
still wear make-up and has long fingernails and does her
hair up and wears high heels and is slim and has nice legs
and....and..."
Female: "But, gee, we don't really look *that* awful, I mean, we're
still nice people, and if you look through the muscles
we're still attractive, and you should see us when we aren't
flexing, we're just as helpless as always...."
Right, of course I'm being abit sarcastic here, but just abit. So
often, we get stuck in this defensive position, arguing back and
forth if women have the right to be strong and powerful instead
of traditionally weak and wobbly. Well, then, I'll get defensive
here. My bottom line is that it's none of anyone's business how
muscular I choose to be, and if men can't see their way clear of
chauvanistic attitudes, I'm not interested in converting them.
I'd be glad to see the direction of this discussion shift to one
of "Difficulties women bodybuilders face because of sexism."
A discussion of the sexiness of women who have biceps should be moved
to the Soapbox notesfile.
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Note 12.8 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 8 of 18
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 23 lines 22-JUL-1987 11:48
-< I AM TRYING TO HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!! >-
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Let me once again reiterate, and continue why I started this note.
I am going to turn my mild flame on here. <Flame setting 2 of 10>I
started this note out of wanting to hit all of the hot issues that
are out now, and to initiate men and women to voice their opinions.
I am geuinely concerned about this area. I thought this would be
an opportunity for women to share some concerns, perceptions about
how far we've have come as a society, where we need to go, and help
take some of the sting off some the sterotypes that women have to
go through. I have discussed this topic with a number of women at
my gym. It was initiated some excellent discussion, and all of
my feedback was positive. I am a little tired of the chauvinism rap
when the intention of this note had a positive direction.<Flame
setting 2 of 10 OFF>.
If this note is going to be interpreted as it has in .1 and .7 please
let me know, and I will be more than happy to remove it. It is
not, and will never be my intention to insult anyone in this
conference.
Vince
1. There are alot of
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Note 12.9 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 9 of 18
BEING::MCANULTY "Fight Crime --- Shoot First" 16 lines 22-JUL-1987 12:00
-< Don't get me mis-understood.... >-
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I think there is a strong conceptual mis-understanding, that
not only are people reading them a different way than there
meant, but there WRITTEN a different way that they are meant.
I feel that, yes woman should do whatever they like. I think
yes woman should be able to build there bodies, and compete. But
muscle bound women don't stimulate an attractive image to me.
Just the same that women say that guy over there has to much muscle.
But we can't say women can't do this or this. THEY CAN DO IT,
I think it's a matter of what is atractive to the male or female
persona.
Mike
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Note 12.10 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 10 of 18
VAXUUM::CORMAN 48 lines 22-JUL-1987 16:58
-< OK OK calm down, now... >-
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Reply to .8
Vince:
Oy veey. Now, you got me wrong, thinking that I got you wrong. :-)
I understood why you started this note, and am glad you did so.
It's an interesting and important topic. I was not responding to
the note's subject. I *was* responding to the conversation that
grew with each response to the note. Read over the responses
and try to see my point, that the discussion moved immediately into
the attractiveness of female body shape/muscle.
Its just so aggravating; think how it'd be to
see, in a brand new notes file, a discussion develop immediately
on the merit of men having hair on their chests. It's rediculous.
(Vince, no doubt you understand this already, from your note in
.8. I guess I just felt it important to open some other eyes, or
maybe just put in my 2 cents.)
So, let's all call a truce and move on with an interesting discussion.
Let's see....
How do the readers of this note feel about working
out with a female training partner?
Ever get the chance to do so? Do you worry that
perhaps she won't be able to spot you properly, that the barbell
will be too heavy for her to lift off you when you accidently
drop it on your face? Ahem, just a joke. But, as you can see, *I*
myself get alittle nervous about spotting someone who is lifting
twice as much as I weigh. But, so far so good, I generally can
give the help required and can also give some good encouragement,
yelling "Come on, push it" at the top of my lungs.
I only got the chance to train with a woman once, several years
ago. I actually felt so in awe of her strength
that I couldn't concentrate. I think I
also felt competitive, not being as muscular as her, and that really
ruined it. Matter of fact, since that time, I've prefered working
out alone...I find that competition discouraging. I'd rather
just compete with myself.
So, what d'ya folks think?
-Barbara
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Note 12.11 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 11 of 18
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 17 lines 22-JUL-1987 17:16
-< Whoops!!! THERE I go!!! >-
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Barbara,
I see your point. That is indeed the direction the replies began
to take. I overreacted. Now that I have comfortably smeared and
adjusted the egg on my face....
I trained with a women in Washington DC. We workout/drilled for
tennis as well. The first week I was blown away by strong this
person was, but after some good pointers from her, some arguements,
some great workouts we grew to depend on each other. We were good
friends after while, I respected her as my training partner (YES
should could spot any weight was lifting). The fact that she was
a woman was ancillary. If she had not be such a hot athlete, I
am sure I would have had concerns, but I benefited from that
partnership.
Vince
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Note 12.12 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 12 of 18
SQM::AITEL "Helllllllp Mr. Wizard!" 34 lines 22-JUL-1987 17:47
-< I'm done being defensive; let's talk. >-
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Hi Barbara, hi Vince, I can see why you reacted as you did to
my note and the others. I was responding to the "can women
get TOO BIG" part, mainly. And what I meant was what I was
saying, that people are people. But enough.
I've been spotted/trained with both men and women. The only
thing I don't like in a spotter/training partner is when they're
unsure of themselves. That tends to lead to them giving too much
help too soon, which ruins the set for me. I've found that more
often with other women, since they're afraid that if they let
me struggle and I fail, they won't be able to pick up the weight.
So they don't let me struggle. BUT the women I usually swap
spotting with don't have any trouble, and I'm sure that the ones
who are unsure wouldn't either - it does not take much to give that
5-10lb lift to get me over a rough spot. And when I train with
other women who are at about the same weights I'm at we're much
tougher on each other, which REALLY helps. We're not truely
competing with each other, but we can psych ourselves into believing
that we are, just for the set.
Some of the problems I've begun to run into are that I don't know
exactly what I'm heading for. It seems that the standards for
men are much more widely known - maybe it just *seems* that way.
I'm having trouble telling just what I should concentrate on,
and if I'm growing at a reasonable rate, etc. I don't know much
about what is specific to a women's development, as opposed to
a man's development. I'm sure most of the ideas are the same, but
there are likely some differences. It's sort-of like I wish there
were somewhere I could go and get someone in the profession to
take a look at me and let me know what they think I could do
with what I've got. At this point I don't know if I'd be better
at powerlifting or building, even.
--Louise
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Note 12.13 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 13 of 18
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 13 lines 22-JUL-1987 20:14
-< Exercise Physiologist or DR. of Sports Medicine >-
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An exercise physiologist would do the trick. That is what I was
working towards. I do not know Boston well, but exercise physiologists
can normally be found in concert with Doctors of Sports Medicine,
and at major hosipitals. Additionally, I am familiar with Exercise
Science Department at UMass Amhearst. They have one of the best
departments on the east coast. They can tell things like composition
of blood chemistry, fast twitch/slow twitch %, skeletical analysis,
and dozens of other test. It is not cheap, but is enlightening,
and fun. A qualified exercise physiologist is a great resource
for information regarding direction of your potential, and general
physiological info about your sport with regard to your training.
Vince
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Note 12.14 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 14 of 18
CSC32::KACHELMYER "Dave Kachelmyer, VMS/SPACE" 31 lines 22-JUL-1987 21:37
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RE: .0
> Q: Should women be bodybuilding?
> Q: Can a women get too big, even without steroids?
> Q: What impact does bodybuilding have on your perception of feminity?
I, for one, know that I appreciate and admire a sleek, muscular body on
an animal such as a horse, a large feline, or a canine (to name but
several). There is a beauty to such a physique, something that is fun
to admire and watch in action. This is true for both male and female
animals. And, this is also true for humans.
Such a body bestows upon its owner an appearance of grace, strength,
and skill that is independent of the gender of it's owner. As a
result, the appearance of either gender is enhanced by such a body.
I expect that at least some women would be able to develop musculature
that would make them look unaesthetic, just as there are are certainly
men who have developed a physique that appears unaesthetic. This can
be either a body that is very unbalanced in development, or one that is
over-developed to the point where it is no longer pleasing to look at.
That point is, of course, subject to a certain ammount of personal
preference, ;-) but is also determined, to a certain extent, by the
size and dimensions of the frame it's built upon.
Considering the benifits to appearance, health, and the pleasure
derived from owning and using a strong, well-developed body, I feel
that both women and men should be in bodybuilding, if they are so
inclined.
Dave
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Note 12.15 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 15 of 18
PUNDIT::CHIP 11 lines 27-JUL-1987 18:40
-< yes! women should bodybuild >-
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rachel mclish is just beautiful....
she is feminine.......
not to big.......
but it seems lately the trend in womens bodybuilding is towards
mass, sculptured but heavily muscled. They say this isn't
MIss america but bodybuilding.....well to me anything bigger
than rachel, cory everson etc. is to manlike for me!
Bodybuilding wowen should be women in shape, not steroid shooting
hulks.
P.S my wife is my training partner when we can synch up schedules
she started with aerobics, then to weights "looks great-less filling"
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Note 12.16 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 16 of 18
RDVAX::STJOHN "RDVAX::STJOHN" 9 lines 5-AUG-1987 16:47
-< Body Fat level >-
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Hi Vince,
I would like to say that this conference is the best!! I only have
one question, I would like to find out how much body fat I have,
and I would like to be tested by a professonal, could you tell me
if there is a specific doctor that does this type of testing, and
if not, how can I find out?
Sherry
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Note 12.17 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 17 of 18
ANGORA::WOLOCH 11 lines 11-AUG-1987 09:02
-< More Colorful Responses >-
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Hi Vince,
In response to .0, I'd like to see this note posted in a notesfile
with a different distribution of people, for instance Human_Relations
or Womannotes.
I would think that (almost) everyone that reads this notesfile would
be supportive of women that work-out, but you'd probably get a more
varied cross-section of responses from one of the above listed
notesfiles.
What do you think?
-Nancy
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Note 12.18 Women and Bodybuilding/Weight Training 18 of 18
CASADM::JONES "Vincent Jones - Is this the edge??" 3 lines 11-AUG-1987 09:35
-< Why didn't I think of that >-
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Yesssss!!!!! That is a marvelous idea.
Vince
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