Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I have to agree with Roger. Many, many times, I'll be in a conversation
    with my wife where she might be telling me about problems at work
    (DEC) or some similar situation. More often then not, I find myself
    responding the same way......WHY DO YOU PUT UP WITH THAT.....WHY
    DO YOU LET THAT PEROSN GET AWAY WITH THAT.....WHY DON'T YOU STAND
    UP FOR YOUR RIHTS.....DON'T JUST SIT THERE AND TAKE IT, FIGHT BACK,
    and so on and so on.
    
    Sure, your going to get resistance from some, but from the vast
    majority (I think), there's a whole lot out there for women. All
    you have to do is TAKE it.
    
    
    
    Steve

    This touches close to home.  I have been working with an individual
    from another organization who seems to disdain at every opportunity
    the organization I work for.
    
    I mentioned it to my manager and he suggested coming down hard on
    her... I simply wasn't comfortable with that.  After discussing
    it with a friend, it was suggested that I ask this individual
    if there is something from her past dealings with our organization
    that preclude our working together. That I can handle.
    
    I'm not comfortable "putting up with that" but I'm also not comfortable
    behaving out of character.
    
    Marge
   

    This touches close to home for me, too, since a friend of mine who
    has been divorced for three years and has just ended a relationship
    with an abusive boyfriend talks a lot about liberation and her own
    integrity but simply doesn't seem able to DO anything.
    
    I'm trying to help her find a job right now -- she has quite a bit
    of in-store sales experience, and people with sales experience are
    worth their weight in gold around Nashua right now, with the shortage
    of manpower -- but every job opening she looked at, she said, "But
    they probably want somebody who can type"  or "I don't know if I'm
    strong enough to move boxes of suits."  
    
    She simply won't give herself permission to be compentent, let alone
    powerful.
    
    I'm going to try explaining it to her in terms of permission and
    see if that helps her see what she's doing to herself -- it sounds
    like a useful way to think of the problem.
    
    Sigh.  Sometimes I get so frustrated I could scream.  
    
    --bonnie

    I'm reading Nathaniel Brandens' newest - "How To Raise Your
    Self Esteem" - a how-to based on his previous work in this
    field. Might be just the ticket. The third chapter, which 
    includes many examples of contrasting behaviors, hit home
    hard. For those unfamiliar with Brandens work, he bases
    his work on the need for *self* esteem, and cites a deficiency
    of it as a major cause of inability to deal with life
    effectively. (I oversimplify.) 
    
    I notice that many people have a hard time dealing with rudeness
    or abuse from others. We all have a hard time saying "F*** OFF !"
    to people who need it. Can't hang up on abusive callers. Put up
    with all kinds of s***. Most women were raised to think '*nice*
    girls don't talk/act that way.' Miss Manners only works if the
    other person is civilized. As Lazarus Long (Robert Heinlein) said,
    "freedom starts when you tell Miss Grundy to go fly a kite."

        Gentle Noter,
        
        I'll have to disagree with your statement that "Miss Manners
        only works if the other person is civilized." If you read dear
        Miss Manner's books you will find that her approach is not
        intended to be inoffensive, but rather to restrict the offense
        only to those who deserve it, and to be able to deal with louts
        and barbarians without sending your own constitution into an
        uproar. One of the main reasons for having good manners is so
        that it is easy to tell when you intend to be offensive. If you
        casually offend people at random, it muddies your message later. 
        
        JimB. 

        re: .5
    
        >One of the main reasons for having good manners is so
        >that it is easy to tell when you intend to be offensive. If you
        >casually offend people at random, it muddies your message later. 

    
    Very nice, Jim.  This reminds me of a character in a science fiction
    story I read relatively recently (By Philip K. Dick, I think, I'll
    look it up).  This character's motto was "Only make enemies on
    purpose".
    
    :-)
    
    Rita_who_reads_too_much_sf_to_always_remember_authors_and_titles
    
    

< Note 380.6 by PARITY::TILLSON "box of rain" >

    This reminds me of a character in a science fiction
    story I read relatively recently (By Philip K. Dick, I think, I'll
    look it up).  This character's motto was "Only make enemies on
    purpose".

I believe the quote is from Winston Churchill who defined a Gentleman
as one who never insults anyone unintenionally.

--David
    
    

    hmmmmm, by that definition Mr_Topaz is the perfect gentleman! :^)
    
    grins,
    Marge

    Perhaps we should also take a small peek into psychology.
    
    Power is best expressed through action, sometimes aggressive action.
    Most of the women I know of were programmed by their little corner
    of the universe to be passive and emphasize the femenine (sp?).
    I think that women need to develop their masculine (active) aspects.
    Generally there should be a harmony and acceptence between both
    aspects in a woman (as well as a man).
    
    Could we not say that women should give themselves permission to be
    active, agressive, and controlling? Obviously our parents/society
    didn't offer that option on a grand scale. But today women can chose
    that and not feel guilty of commiting a social misdemenor.
    
    Now we could ask the question of HOW women can give themselves
    permission to do that.
    
      Mikie?

    I am of the opinion that the very best weapon anyone has is the
    truth.  Woman hesitate to speak the truth as they see it because
    they don't want to hurt anyone but they truth can be spoken in a
    nice way. 
    
    One of my fantasies is that on secretaries day, all of the secretaries
    will say "I am very glad that you appreciate me but, rather than
    showing your appreciation by taking me to lunch, I would prefer
    that you display your appreciation by giving me a larger salary
    in my next review".  .....(and then smile sweetly)_:-)

    <--(.10)
    
    Right on, Mary!

Re Note 380.4 ARMORY::CHARBONND

<    Nathaniel Brandens' newest - "How To Raise Your
<    Self Esteem" - The third chapter, which 
<    includes many examples of contrasting behaviors, hit home hard. 

I'd love to see some of the contrasting behaviors if you have time to 
summarize a few.

An artifact of 'niceness' ... for most of my life I was nice,  even to
the point of slipping paper into the wastebasket. RIPPING, CRUMPLING seemed
... ah  rude? agressive? angry?  It's a place to start. Crumple the paper, 
bang the door, GO AHEAD, SNAP THE PENCIL.  Ahhhhhhhh!           Meigs

    This is a VERY interesting subject!  Women in "powerful" positions
    still aren't accepted too readily in today's society.  How often
    are you surprised when you hear about a woman CEO?
    
    I am still attending college and was recently elected president
    of our schools chapter of a national organization.  In fact, I was
    even asked to run because some people thought I was the only one
    who could get things done....sounds good doesn't it?  Well it isn't.
    The other two officers happen to be men (boys?) and refuse to do
    anything I ask.  I am not unreasonable, yet anytime I point out
    that they are not doing their work (and ask if there is a problem...do
    they need help) I am either ignored or called a nag.  
    
    Now here is a position where I should have some power, yet cannot
    get any response to it.  I end up doing all the work and have been
    given the nickname "dragon lady."  
    
    Am I doing something wrong?  Why don't they respect my position?
    
    Debra
    

    When I was a secretary to 2 managers and 12 people, on two occasions,
    I was taken out for secretaries week (lunch) and given a plant or
    flowers.  One of the other secretaries "refused" to be taken out.
    Her reason (and I agree but I couldn't tell anyone), "if you can't
    respect me as a secretary ALL YEAR LONG, why "do it" on one day
    because "everyone" else is "doing it".
    
    Don't get me wrong: it is nice to be honored but it is a stab in
    the back when they mis-treat you one day and the very next day they're
    telling you what a great secretary you are.   Oooooo, never again.

    
     Read "The Cinderella Complex" for more information on how/why
     women give away power. Author is Collette Dowling, I believe.
    

    Yes, Collete Dowling is the author.  
    
    I found it fascinating for its account of how even the most independent
    and competent of us can be sabotaged by our childhood belief that
    somehow being responsible for ourselves is a temporary situation that
    we can be rescued from if we want. 
    
    I can loan my copy to anybody in the Spit Brook area who is willing
    to put up with my copious and ill-thought-out marginal notes.
    
    --bonnie

re: Cinderella Complex

Some men also believe that women have the option of being rescued from
being responsible for themselves. A recurring theme in many conversations
is that: women now have the option of either taking care of themselves
or being home makers. And that men must take care of themselves, and
might be forced into taking care of a spouse. The dichotemy is faulty
(we can do both, interleave them, etc.). And the assumption that being
a home maker means not knowing how to take care of yourself in the real
world has gotten many folks into hot water.
	Mez

    re .17
    
    Being a homemaker means you take care of everyone, not that you
    are taken care of.  My wife works in the home and she works harder
    and longer than I do.  I can't see where anyone can figure that
    a woman staying home is "being taken care of".
    
    Sure, I do supply the $$ that pay for the things we need, and do
    most of the traditionally male functions like fix the car, paint
    the house, and general maintenence.
    
    But my wife does more than her share, and I couldn't afford to pay
    for even 1/10 of what she does at market rates.  In fact, I'm not
    taking care of her or absolving her of her responsibility - she's
    doing that for me in most cases!
    
    Of course for all this selfless effort she gets stereotyped, and
    considered a low class citizen by many, including the government.
    I can assure you though that she's the most important member of
    our home - especially to the other 5 members.
    
    I guess my point is that there's a hell of a lot more to life than
    money or the ability to earn it, and quite frankly the other side
    is a lot more important.  Women who work at home are not "kept".
    They are the "keepers".
    
    Seriously, I could not do it.  It would take a cluster of 8800's
    to give me any kind of chance.
    
    /Len
    

    re Dowling's The Cinderella Complex
    
    Now being remaindered at a bookstore or discount bookseller's list
    near you.
    
    (So's Brownmiller's "Femininity", for that matter.)

    re: .18 --
    
    The Cinderella Complex is referring to the desire to be taken care of
    in a primarily emotional sense -- the sense implied in the stock
    fairy-tale phrase "they married and lived happily ever after." It's not
    talking about actual financial arrangments except as they give hints
    toward the underlying power and emotional relations. 
    
    No sensible homemaker, including your wife and my mother, ever believed
    that being married ended the work, or that a husband was responsible
    for his wife's happiness, satisfaction, or job performance.  But a lot
    of people did, and still do, believe that somehow they're entitled to
    rest in the struggle, that once they've reached some point of
    accomplishment in their lives (marriage, the kids leave home,
    retirement, that last big promotion) they have the right to rest, enjoy
    the fruit of their labors, and let somebody else (husband, society,
    employer) take over the responsibility. 
    
    My personal opinion is that the desire to be taken care of and mothered
    is a perfectly normal and universal human longing.  If you're in a
    normal (note that this isn't common!) loving and sharing relationship,
    you take care of each other.  Sometimes you mother your wife, sometimes
    she mothers you, and in all likelihood there are times when the kids
    mother both of you.  I think it's only when these normal relations are
    out of whack that people of either sex develop such a craving for being
    taken care of that they overlook all other parts of a relationship for
    the sake of the security they can get.  Women, I suspect, are much more
    prone to it for a variety of societal factors, the primary one being
    that our social role defines us as the caregiver, so women more often
    don't receive the nurturing they need. 

    --bonnie