Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Would someone who speaks French be willing to post a translation?
    

    RE: .2
    
    Si tu es interessee par l'idee d'exercer/reviser/perfectionner ton
    francais, et bien rigoler en plus, essaie la conference
    
    			TSC01::FRENCH
    
    Il est 21:43 ici a Geneve (Switzerland). Bonsoir.
    
    Zoziau

    I am totally fustrated.  I do not speak a word of French.  I don't
    mind the note being in French but I would like to see a translation.
    Any volunteers?
    

    I hope this is accurate ...
    
    
    Does this worry you?  What do you think?  What do people around
    you think?
    
    In this regard, Europe is still strict.  If you are seen by acquaintances
    in the company of a girl, you would immediately be treated as a
    lesbian, and as a consequence, would be put on the shelf.  Make
    a few slightly feminist statements and the reaction is worse still:
    not only are you lesbian, but it's as if you were dressed in cast-off
    clothes: you will most certainly be considered an old maid.
    
    How to be free and peaceful without having your personality and
    character traits imposed on you by society and its conceptions of
    feminity?  How to live as a woman in a "natural" way, not to be
    ashamed of one's body and imperfections, not to hide when buying
    tampons, sanitary napkins and other such things, how to make men
    in general, and one's boyfriend/husband in particular, understand
    that one loves to make oneself beautiful and take care of oneself
    first and foremost for one's own sake and not theirs?  How?...
    
    My adolescence was quite influenced by dear Erica Jong ...
    
    I will be 20 in exactly 14 days.
    
    Z.
    
    
    
    Apologies to Zoziau if I misinterpreted any of her statements.
    
    Ciao,
    Helen

    Translation of .4 :
    
    If you are interested in practicing/revising/perfecting your french
    and on top of it all like to joke around, try the conference :
    
    	TSC01::FRENCH
    
    It's 9:43 pm here in Geneva (Switzerland).  Good night.
    
    
    

re .0/6

>    In this regard, Europe is still strict.  If you are seen by acquaintances
>    in the company of a girl, you would immediately be treated as a
>    lesbian, and as a consequence, would be put on the shelf.  

I would not agree that this is a trait of Europe as a whole. I am aware
that Switzerland is little more chauvinistic than many other countries.

Please also remember that there are ignorant people in all nations who
will make prejudiced judgements.

Dave.

    <--(.6)
    
    Thank you, Helen.
    
    						=maggie
    
    

    I (American male) don't think 2 women are lesbian just because they
    hang around together.  If they kiss and such, that's a different
    story.  If they shun men, then I wonder.  But just being together,
    no.  To see a group of women suddenly get up and go to the 'powder
    room' is nothing worth comment.  If a group of men did the same
    thing, they would be labeled 'gay'.
                                  
    Will she be able to read this or does someone translate for her?
    No problem here, just curious.
    
    Spence (Ich spreche kein Francaise) (Yo no comprendo Francaise)
    
    Je ne parl pa Francaise (well, that's how it sounds ;-)

    How does one say "Above all else, to thine own self be true" 
    in french?  :-)

    Chacun a son gout 

    Re: .12
    
    Well, that would be "Each to his own" (not sure if there's a gender
    implied here - French has more gender-specific words than does 
    English), and I don't think that's quite the same sentiment.
    
    I studied French in high school, but can't do too well with
    idiomatic French as in .0, so I really appreciate the translation.
    
    As for the topic under discussion - I see women in pairs all the
    time and think nothing of it.  I don't instantly assume that they
    are lesbians any more than I think any two men together are
    gay.  Even if I did see evidence of this, I really wouldn't care.
    
    But prejudice is not confined to any one country or continent,
    and there are all types of people no matter where you go.
    
    					Steve

If I  (as  a  woman)  was in love with a woman, I certainly wouldn't feel as
free  to  show  affection  to  her as I am now with my "boyfriend". I've not
seen,  in  general,  though,  the  treatment  of 2 of the same sex, together
without   showing   the  affection  lovers  would  show,  being  treated  as
homosexual.  (I  have seen specific instances where two people seemed to fit
generalizations for how homosexuals would act.)

I used  to  live  with  a woman who was bi-sexual. I completely missed hints
that she wanted to be alone with her lover --- another female friend of mine
---  I had no idea they were lovers (or that she was bi, at that time). Yes,
I  had a tense relationship with my roommate. Communication there might have
helped!

I have a feeling the AIDS problems would tend to make people even more hyper
around  non-heterosexuals,  and jump to conclusions more quickly in order to
try to avoid any chance of getting AIDS.

I guess  I  want  people  out  of  my bedroom --- legislation about what two
consenting  adults  can  and  can't  do in private really bothers me. I also
don't  appreciate  the  prejudice against non-heterosexuals.

If I  wanted  to  make  the man special to me understand that I love to make
myself beautiful and take care of myself first and foremost for my own sake,
I  would  try  to just come out and say that to them. They may not even hear
the   words  you  say  at  first,  but  most  humans  have  some  degree  of
intelligence.  If  they are closely connected with you, presumably they have
some  desire  to  understand  you,  and  believe  you.  Repeated attempts at
communication may help.

[However, I  have trouble with my own boyfriend at times because although we
both  speak  English,  we  don't  always mean the same thing by what we say.
Frustrating, but we're working at it.]

- Linda

    Actually, it _is_ harder to be a feminist overseas.  I don't know
    about Europe as a whole, but in France... golly I had a hard time.
    When I worked at Renault, here was one woman other than myself in
    a very large building.  She was Mlle Dupuiche, and the engineers
    would say her name with a huge smirk on their faces.  She was
    "obviously" une vieille fille dure, a bitchy old spinster, and probably
    a closet lesbian.  It made me so mad.  Every now and then when I
    dealt with her she would make a comment about how so-and-so had
    this-or-that because he was a man, and I thought "aha! a french
    woman who sees through all this..."
    
    I later mentioned to her that she was the first french feminist
    I had met, and it was nice to know I was not alone, and she blasted
    me.  While she was a friend and had given me gifts, asked me out
    to dine, helped me at work, the word feminist really offended her.
     She made all sorts of references towards suffragettes and how all
    american women must be lunatics, etc, etc.
    
    It is not just the question of whether or not you are free to be
    alone with women, talk to them, etc without being taken for a lesbian;
    in Paris I did not have the freedom to say, "hold it!  You are treating
    me as an inferior because of my gender and that is wrong!  It is
    wrong to subject me to pictures of naked women on the way to the
    metro without naked men there, it is wrong to use people of my gender
    as objects and tools, it is wrong that you may verbally abuse anyone
    of my gender on the street in broad daylight in the nicest of areas,
    it is wrong!"  Couldn't say that and not just because I was a
    foreigner; because I was a woman who is supposed to enjoy these
    things, including (I suppose) the elevated rape rate...
    
    While france is a beautiful country and there are very nice people
    there, the liberation movement has not been very strong there, and
    it would be nice to see french women start screaming the way my
    mom did 20 years ago...
    
    Lee

    
    So far in all of the replies that have answered the question, people
    have said that when they see two women together, they don't
    automatically assume they are lesbians.
    
    What do you assume??
    
    this is probably another topic,
    pk

    Re: .16
    
    If I see two women together, I automatically assume they are
    friends.  I feel no desire to form an opinion on their sexual
    orientation.
    				Steve
    

    re .16
    
    i agree with steve... why assume anything about their sexuality?...
    
    whenever two or more people are together, they could be:
    
       lovers
       ex-lover
       spies
       friends
       none-of-the-above
       all-of-the-above

    What about women who hug and kiss each other?
    

    re .19
    
    it's always been my impression that american women are more physically
    affectionate than american men (except for professional jocks...
    i remember that the professional soccer league here once scolded
    its players to stop patting each other's buns so much, because
    it was "unmanly"). it's also my impression that european men are
    not nearly so inhibited about hugging each other as american men.
    
    /bruce

.19�  What about women who hug and kiss each other?
    
      Depends where in the world we are. In many places in Europe it is
      normal for women to hug and kiss each other when they meet. In some
      places (eg Russia) it is common for men to do so.
      
      In other places it is rare (until quite recently you could be arrested
      for kissing in public in Spain, whether it was two men, two women
      or one of each doing the kissing). In such a place such a public display
      would have strong negative connotations.
      
      /. Ian .\

    Ok then, if in Europe people don't think it is anything for 
    out of the ordinary for women to hug and kiss each other 
    then why is a problem for people to see two women who are 
    friends and do things together? (as in the base note?) 

    I didn't mean to say that all of Europe is like that.
    
    In Italy or Northern England for example it is common for women to 
    kiss when they meet.
    
    Switzerland is somewhat more conservative in these matters: the base
    note is I think talking about Swiss attitudes.
                 
    /. Ian .\
    

    re .16, depending on the situation, I.E. laughing or not, I might
    assume that they are friends or co-workers.
    
    re .19, depends on the type of hug and kiss.  A short hug and peck
    would be a simple 'hello'.  A passionate hug and kiss would be a
    sign of a lot more.
    
    re .24, I agree.  The people who are most put off by the issues
    wouldn't be around to read the questions.  Or should I say the people
    who could most benefit from it.
    
    And I agree with Ian, it depends on where your feet currently are
    as to how it will be viewed.  Men hold hands in Japan.  Women don't
    even show their whole face in Iran.  By the same token, a white
    man with a black man in Colorado doesn't raise an eyebrow, but in
    Alabama, you'll get more than a raised eyebrow.  And that's within
    the same country.
    
    Spence

    Even while translating the base note, I wondered about it since
    my experience here (yes, in Switzerland) is so different.
    
    Most of the people I know kiss friends three times, alternating
    cheeks (we *are* speaking of facial anatomy here), on meeting and 
    parting.  It can be really tedious with large groups, but no one
    is assumed to be lesbian because of it.  BTW, women and women do
    this, as well as women and men.  I've never seen two men kiss in
    greeting, though.
    
    I wonder if the "fille" (girl) referred to by Zoziau had some sort
    of connotation.  I read it several times and find no such indications,
    but who knows?  Translation is a tricky thing.  You have to try
    to translate the *idea* and not just the words.  Maybe I missed
    the idea?
    
    Helen

    I asked some lesbian friends about this.  One said that she kissed
    and hugged some women (straight and lesbian) and even some men when she saw
    them in public.  She said that she figured it kept people wondering!
    
    Another said that she was very uptight about kissing anyone in public
    because she is not "out" at work and was very nervous when effusive straight
    women kissed her in greeting, even though the intention was friendly.
                                   
    ...
    
    The people I know who are the most affectionnate in public are my
    "new age" friends, and most of them are straight!
    
    

    Why does it matter whether we can differentiate peoples' sexual
    preferences by observing their behavior?
    
    liz

    re .26
    If I see someone, anyone, do the "kiss on each cheek", whether they
    be w/w, w/m, or m/m, I assume that they are European.  The style
    of the kiss tells a lot about the person's nationality.
    
    How many men still kiss a woman's hand?  BTW, the lips never touch
    the flesh, and if they do its an insult.
    
    Spence

    
    I had 2 or 3 men kiss my hand recently on the same night.
    We were having a "murder" with the How to Host a Murder game
    and were all dressed up and acting like people in 1895.
    
                Carol

    Re .29, the only reason that I can think that it would matter to
    me is if I was interested in a particular person *myself*!  For
    example, if I asked a guy out on a date and discovered that he was
    gay I might be embarrassed.  But, it's certainly not something I
    go around worrying about.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .11
    
    En francais de Geneve, on dirait :
    
    "Chacun son truc !"

    ou :

    "On a tous nos gouts et nos couleurs !"
    
    
    Zoziau

    Probably not necessary, but :
    
    In French (the Geneva variation) we would say :
    
    "To each his own thing"   ["Truc" is slang for "thing"]
    
    or :
    
    "We all have our own tastes and colors."
    
    

    Je parlais en fait du comportement plus specifique de la jeunesse
    genevoise, c'est-a-dire des jeunes entre 15 et 25 ans, en tous cas.
    En ce qui concerne les plus ages, je n'en sais rien.
    
    J'ai vecu ceci deja. J'ai passe un samedi soir en compagnie d'une
    copine. Nous avons tourne dans differents bistrots, nous avons danse,
    tout ceci sans accorder un coup d'oeil aux garcons evoluant autour
    de nous. Pour le grand malheur de la fille qui m'accompagnait, il
    se trouvait ici et la quelques copains de son ecole.
    
    Le lundi matin, c'etait fichu. Elle etait classee lesbienne.
    
    2eme exemple
    ============
    
    J'ai une amie de tres longue date. C'est beaucoup plus qu'une simple
    amie, car nous nous connaissons depuis si longtemps que quelques
    mots suffisent a exprimer une idee complete, et il est tres rare
    que nous ne nous comprenions pas. Avec le temps, les relations,
    tout en restant amicales, finissent par s'enrober d'une certaine
    intimite, peut-etre parfois a la limite de l'ambigu il est vrai.
    
    Deja lorsque j'avais 13-14 ans, nous ne quittions guere. Nous avions
    declare la guerre au machisme, nous nous posions comme feministes,
    nous refusions l'idee de la pilule parce qu'elle nous paraissait
    dangereuse, parce qu'elle incitait la femme a oublier son corps
    et son cycle intime et parce qu'elle la rendait "disponible" a priori
    et par defaut; je portais les cheveux courts, je vivais en jeans,
    je fumais, disais des gros mots et je crachais par terre (beurk!);
    nous pronions l'ecologie, l'anarchie et le hard-rock tout ensemble;
    en fait nous reunissions a deux un echantillonnage choatique et
    heteroclite de l'attitude adolescente d'il y a 5-7 ans, masculine
    surtout, des residus ecolo-gaucho-femino-choses des annees septantes,
    d'une certaine revolte vis-a-vis de tout stereotype impose (cette
    attitude en etait deja un fameux, de stereotype !) et un furieux
    mal de vivre.
    
    Resultat de ceci:  les eleves bien-pensants, devant ces deux nanas
    qui-ne-se-maquillaient-pas-ne-portaient-pas-la-derniere-jupe-a-la
    mode-ni-les-dernieres-chaussures-ni-la-derniere-coiffure-qui-fumaient
    comme-les-garcons-qui-ne-minaudaient-pas-ne-rougissaient-jamais-et-
    manquaient-indubitablement-de-pudeur-et-de-modestie;-qui-de-surcroit
    ne-sortaient-jamais-avec-un-garcon, ces eleves, donc, pensaient
    quasi-invariablement: "celles-ci sont lesbiennes", et le criaient
    bien haut.
    
    A present encore, des bruits courent sur telle ou telle fille,
    specialement sur celles qui, comme moi, continuent a ne pas baisser
    les yeux, marchent a grands pas "virils", ne savent toujours pas
    rougir, parlent aux garcons - des hommes, a present, parait-il -
    avec un peu trop de desinvolture, osent tenir leur copines par
    le bras et les bercent maternellement lorsqu'elles ont un trop gros
    chagrin.
    
    Quant au probleme des soins attentifs accordes a sa personne pour
    SOI, ca fait belle-lurette que j'ai renonce a l'idee de le faire
    comprendre a mon ami; pour lui, si je me refuse a l'idee de prendre
    soin de moi avec l'unique objectif de plaire aux autres - et avant
    tout a LUI -, c'est que j'assume mal ma feminite, que je me refuse a
    etre femme. Tiens donc, interessant !

    Dur-dur...
    
    Zoziau

    Mistake on 246.35
    
    Not "choatique", but "chaotique"...
    
    
    Z.

    RE: .35                               
    
    Hope this is reasonably accurate ...
    
Quote:

Actually I was speaking of the specific behaviour of young Genevois [people
from Geneva], ie aged between 15 and 25 years old.  As for [people of] other
ages, I don't know.

I've through this already.  I spent a Saturday evening in the company of
a <girl>friend.  We went to a few bars and danced, all this without glancing
at the guys turning around us.  To the great unhappiness of the girl who
was with me, it happened that here and there were several friends from her 
school.

On Monday morning, it was a disaster [literally, it was broken].  She was
classed as a lesbian.

Second example :

I have a friend of many years.  She is much more than a plain old 'friend',
since we have known each other for so long that a few word suffice to express
a complete idea, and it is very rare that we do not understand one another.
With time, all relationships, while staying entirely on the level of 
friendship, end up taking on a certain intimacy, perhaps sometimes the limit 
is ambiguous, but it is true.

Since I was 13-14 years old, we were inseparable.  We declared war on
macho-ism, we posed as feminists, we refused the idea of the pill becausee
it seemed dangerous to us, because it encouraged the woman to forget her
body and its intimate cycle and because it made the body first and foremost
(and by default) "available";  I wore my hair short, I lived in jeans, I
smoked, used swear words and spat on the ground (ugh!);  we extolled ecology,
anarchy, and hard rock all together; in effect, we assembled together a chaotic
and odd smattering from adolescent attitude of 5-7 years ago (masculine above
all) from the ecological, leftist, feminist residues of the '70s, from a
certain revolt against all imposed stereotypes (this attitude was already
a famous one - stereotypical, you might say!) and a furious sickness at
it all.

The result of all of this:  Confronted with these two chicks-who-didn't-
wear-makeup-not-wearing-the-latest-dress-nor-shoes-nor hairstyle-who-smoked-
like-boys-who-didn't-simper-never-blushed-and-indubitably-had-no-shame-or-
modesty; -who-in-addition-never-went-out-with-a-boy, the "good-thinking" 
students, therefore, more or less invariably, thought :  "these ones are 
lesbians", and shouted it from the rooftops.

Even now, rumours still fly about this or that girl, especially about those
who, like me, still not lowering their eyes, walking tall, still not
knowing how to blush, speaking to boys -- to men, it would appear -- with
a little too much lack of deference, daring to take their <girl>friends
in their arms and rock them maternally when they are in pain.

As for the problem of taking care of oneself for one's own sake, a long
long time ago I renounced the idea of making my boyfriend understand;  as
far as he's concerned, if I refuse the concept of taking care of myself
with the unique objective of pleasing others --and before all others, HIM-- 
it is because I am not comfortable with my feminity, because I refuse
to allow myself to be a woman.  Isn't that interesting!

Harder than hard.

Unquote.

   Re: .37

    Unquote ? Qu'est-ce donc ?
    
    I would say "little-bird" or "baby-bird" instead. "Zoziau" is a
    surname.
    
    Merci de tout coeur pour ces superbes traductions, Helen.
    
    
    Zoziau

    Excuse-moi, Zoziau.  "Unquote" n'est pas la traduction de "Zoziau".
    Ca veut dire que j'ai termine la traduction.
    
    (Sorry 'bout that, Zoziau.  "unquote" doesn't mean "Zoziau".
    It means I've finished translating.)
    
    
    A lundi prochain!  Je part en vacances aujourd'hui.
    (Till next Monday.  I'm going on holiday today.)
    
    Helen

    Ok, Helen. J'ai verifie dans le dico et j'ai vu que j'avais dit
    une betise...
    
    En francais, on dirait "fin de citation" pour "unquote".
    
    -------
    
    Ok Helen. I looked for in the dictionary, I saw that I have said
    something stupid...
    
    In French, we would say "fin de citation" for "Unquote".
    
    Zoziau

    <--(.38)
    
    "    I would say "little-bird" or "baby-bird" instead. "Zoziau" is a
    surname."
    
    
    I think that you may have meant "nickname" rather than "surname".  In
    english, "surname" has come to mean "name of family" ("nom" in french,
    if I remember correctly). 
    
    Is Mimi your actual prenom?
    
    							=maggie

    I am enjoying the opportunity to read Zoziau's entries and then
    read Helen's excellent translations--my motivation for making the
    effort to read in French is higher when the content is of interest
    to me, and when reading Helen's translations, I find I am learning
    a few words and constructions I had either forgotten or didn't know.
     
    Thanks to both of you for the opportunity.
    
    Holly

    RE: .41
    
    Mimi is an abbreviation of "Myriam", my "middle-name (???)". It's
    a nickname too.
    
    My real first name is "Blandine".
    
    But let be "Zoziau", please.
    
    Thanks.
    
    It's 18:35 here in Geneva.

    Fair enough, "Zoziau" you shall be.
    
    (Your command of english sounds fine to me.  Please use english
    as often ...or as rarely... as you wish; no intelligent person will
    become upset by grammatical errors or awkward phrasing.  English 
    is not an easy language to use, and *nobody* uses it perfectly.)
    
    						=maggie
                                         

                                         
But, Zoziau's such a good writer -- in French -- that she's likely
to have an extraordinarily difficult time recasting her thoughts
into equally strong English.  When I translated her first posting,
I spent about an hour thumbing my dictionary and still missed
some of the nuances.  (Thanks, Helen, for the translations.)

Martin.

    You (and she) probably already know this, but I'll say it for the
    record anyhow:  my invitation to her to use english whenever she
    wishes to use it was just that: a mere invitation.  As I said earlier,
    so far as I am concerned, people are welcome to use whatever language
    (or languages) they feel most comfortable using.  
                                                      
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

    Zoziau, it might also be possible for you to be eloquent in French,
    and then give us a rough version in English underneath.  That way,
    we all get to practice a bit.
    
    Holly

    Zoziau, I am sorry indeed that I can not converse with you in
    French but, I do desire(wish) to give my feelings.  Since being
    in DEC (1980) I have worked with Lesbians, Homosexuals, drug user,
    and people who are just plain people.  I being of a Christian
    background do hug people of both sexes, although I will admit
    that HUGGING A PERSON OF THE SAME SEX does feel a bit odd.  
    My wife and I went through a marriage encounter weekend several
    years ago, and we learned much about each other and ourselves
    on that weekend.  I will be 47 years old in Septemer and I feel
    that I have fit In in each country that I have been and I feel
    comfortable in almost all situations.  I feel most strange when
    I can not converse (talk) to someone in a common language.
    
    Do what you want,  If you are happy being yourself who are 
    the rest of us to tell you you are wrong?  I have done things
    that were, I am sure, not approved by society in general.
    When change is brought about it is never accomplished by
    the faint of heart.  Go for the Gold, no risk no gain.
    
    I love people who can be themselves,  just keep the goal
    that you set in mind or change the goal as the situation
    requires. 
    
    good luck 'LUCKETT TIL'  +VIELLE GLUK+ 
    
    HOPE YOU HAVE A GOOD DICTIONARY OR A TRANSLATOR HANDY.
    
    20:20 HERE IN KALAMAZOO, MICHIGAN SO BONSOIR,
    
    MON PETIT "CHUE"  AND I do not know if it is spelled correctly
    or if appropiate.  In English its MY LITTLE CABBAGE AND EVEN
    WORSE IN DEUTSCH MIR KLEINE KRAUTE!
    
    DAVE