Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Men who can't do for themselves! "Jane get me a beer", while he
    is sitting in the kitchen and Jane is in one of the othr rooms at
    the other end of the house. (taken word for word from a happening
    at my house when I was growing up; she got it for him too-- fool)
    
    M-L

    
    I don't like:
    
    Men who have double standards for the sexual behavior of men and
    women.  Men who brag about their sexual conquests and kinky exploits
    but if they ever found out their wife/SO/girfriend/date had done
    anything similar would consider her to be a tramp.  Men who consider
    women they have had casual sex with to be tramps.  (If they had
    sex with her and they *loved* her it was okay, but if they had sex
    with her and they *didn't* love her, she was a tramp!)  Men who
    tell other men intimate sexual details about mutual acquaintances
    that they have been with.
    
    Men who still think that, even though their wife/SO works 40 hrs.
    a week too, that she should in addition do all the cooking, cleaning,
    laundry, and childcare, while the man sits back in front of the
    TV with a beer.  They're still out there!  So, look out!
    
    Men who are afraid to show their feelings and think they have to
    act tough all the time, like John Wayne or somebody.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna I agree with you 100% on all counts !!!!
    

    
    a man who chews tobaco 
    	yech, yuck ick 
          and then spits everywhere!
    a man who feel it's manly to "smell"
    like a pile of dirty socks!
    "no shower for me hon, and I don't need sissy deoderant stuff, 
    so what if I just played softball for 6 hours
    it's the smell of me, a man" (actual quote from a friends SO)
    Men who feel that jeans are made to be worn and not washed.
    ugh!
    Men who wear jeans with the crotch close to their knees due to
    the unwashed jeans theory.
    I also agree with Lorna on the other counts.
    
    chirp    

men (people) who say they didn't mean something that meant a lot to me

(ok, so I don't hold liars in high esteem)

- Linda
				     

   re:.4
    After being gentley chastised for my comment on the jeans and not
    the man wearing them, in another notes file, I decided the Eagles were
    right, but it's hard to get close to a man whose laundry habits
    are not up to par.  Don't know if he doesn't know how to wash
    laundry, or he is making a personal statement.

    chirp

Oh, yikes.

I just criticized Tarik Sadat in MENNOTES for hating women with
moustaches, and now this topic pops up.

I don't think this topic is very fair.  You can criticize an idea
or a concept, but don't generalize all men in your criticisms.
You're BOUND to hurt someone's feelings!!!!

There are bound to be guys reading this that will read your criticism
having been unaware of that problem he has, recognize it, and then
feel really lousy about it.

Or get mad about it.

The previous note is a good example of how to handle it.  She complained
SPECIFICALLY about an problem with her ex.  And she didn't say "All men"
do it!

Now, I realize this is a forum for women and you can discuss things
openly, but I don't see that this is anything but a gripe session
directed at men.  

Can we see some solutions as well as criticisms?  And please, be concerned
with how some of our male readers might feel about it.

And, this comment is only as a reader, not an assistant moderator.
If you object, I'm ready.... and I don't want to abuse Maggie's trust,
so please don't take it as moderator duty.

Bugsy

    Here's a gripe I have that I've seen in a few men, but not any women
    (or maybe I just remember them? :-) ).
    
    I cannot *stand* people who won't eat a long list of ordinary food
    items.  They have extraordinary food hangups.  Examples - my friend
    Glen who won't eat mushrooms, onions, peppers, cucumbers, and a bunch
    of other vegatables.  Trying to order a pizza with him is horrible.
    His spaghetti sauce is extremely boring.  My friend Greg won't eat
    *any* vegetables except corn (because "my mother made me eat them"),
    loves red meat too much, won't eat any <name almost any ethnic food,
    even Mexican> food, won't eat brownies that have nuts in them, and
    wonders why he has an ulcer.  This same guy *loves* to give me grief
    over my mostly vegetarian diet.  I'm healthy and thin.  He is neither.
    My cousin Joe who will not eat vegetables or fish (and is pretty
    horribly overweight).  Another guy here in my department who won't eat
    yet another long list of vegetables.
    
    I have no patience with people who have these food hangups!  I think
    they are immature (about food).

    	-Ellen

    
    Men who don't listen!!
    
    Scenerio;  You both get home from work and relax.  He starts talking
    about work on and on and on.  Everything from his subordinates long
    lunch to his secretary's divorce.  A few hours later, when you are
    able to get a word in, he says, "Can't you be quiet, I'm trying
    to watch Moonlighting."
    Does he care that you've had a rough day, started a new project,
    gotten a promotion etc. etc.
    
    -nancy
    
    (no smiley faces here!)
    

    I don't like men who flirt for sport.
    
    If a man doesn't listen to me I usually don't do too much listening
    to him, either.
    
    Sandy

    This is a *real* annoyance for me.
    
    Men who tell "the little woman" stories.
    
    Men who pretend/act like they aren't happy in their marriages or
    that their wife is a bitch or that they'd rather be out tomcatting
    etc., in front of other people, because they think they are supposed
    to act that way.
    
    I've had to insist that this is unacceptable behavior to me.  Those
    off-the-cuff comments contribute more to stereotypes and prejudice
    than a lot of deliberate behavior
    
    Gloria
    

    Re: .13
    
    Reminds me of one of my favorite songs by Lone Justice:  "Wait 'Till
    We Get Home."
    
    Sample lyrics:
    
    "But if we go out somewhere tonight and run into them (his friends)
     You better be careful how you treat me."
    
    "If you put me down just to get a laugh"
    
    "Even though I'm not the type to cause an angry scene,
     Just wait till we're alone because I can get mean."
    
    (Personal favorite)
    "Don't think that I don't love you just because I yell a little."

    How about the "men" (I use the term loosely) who think it's impressive
    to drive next to women or girls then rev the engine, toss a cocky
    glance and peel rubber. I know how masculine I think those guys
    are! Liesl

>    Men who feel that jeans are made to be worn and not washed.
>    ugh!
>    Men who wear jeans with the crotch close to their knees due to
>    the unwashed jeans theory.

    What!  I'm supposed to wash the things?  Might as well wear 
 --Hurumph--  khakis (sp?)   :-)

Now that my temp has dropped and the cold is only a bitter Thanksgiving
memory, I'll clarify what I meant in .9... I wasn't very clear in what
I was trying to say...

This is it in a nutshell:  criticizing bad traits or gender-specific traits
is not what I was worried about.  I was concerned about seeing that someone
really disliked guys with big noses... or shorties... or something.

Sorry... I should have realized you folks would be above that.

And yes, Eagles Thompson, freedom of speech is extremely important.  I
value the rights of others as much as my own, and I also value their feelings.
I would be more worried about alienating someone who might be a valued
contributor at some point...

And I am only referring to watching what you say when you yourself can't
see the folks you're talking to -- would the person who dislikes baggie
jeans in which the crotch hangs down to the guy's knees had said it if just
such a fellow were standing there in front of her in all his baggy glory?
I doubt if she were the kind of person who would have set out to hurt
someone's feelings.  This medium makes it too easy to not have to account
for what we say.

Refraining from potentially hurting things was my only request, not setting
up an atmosphere under which women can't discuss problems with men.  

Bugsy

    re: .10
    
    Food hangups - I make it a point to be careful about this one. 
    I have a long list of things that I won't eat - because eating them
    would wind me up in the hospital with anaphalytic shock!
    
    _not_fussy_just_allergic!
    
    Rita
    

    Re: .9 & .18
    
    Thanks Bugsy for clarifying what you meant...The only
    reason I asked this question was to really find out
    what really bugs a woman about a man, I wasn't looking
    for physical characteristics !!! I guess they would be
    considered personality traits ? Maybe I am wrong about 
    how I am defining it, but this question was not put in 
    to hurt anyone's feelings.......Hope everything is clear !
    
    Re: .15  Thanks for understanding Andy !!
    
    
    
    Tammy

    to clarify:
    I live in the land of "cowboys" who do in fact wear their
    jeans to the disintegration point.  If in casual conversation
    with the said men, they admit that the "unwashed" appearance
    lets women know that they need someone to take care of them.
    
    My comment was not meant for men at large all over the world
    just for the Colorado Cowboys.  They don't even work for DEC.
    But I would add a humorous tone to the other serious comments
    that was misunderstood.  I do hold myself accountable for any
    comments I make.  If the humor wasn't there, oh well.....
    
    A personal experience that left a mark::::
    I am a costume designer for some theatre groups, have been for
    many years.  Well my ex, did bit parts in some of the productions
    I designed for.  One particular play had a lot of period costumes
    from the 1800 that I designed and made.  The newspapers didn't 
    like the play but loved the costumes. So they said the play was
    dreary, but the costumes designed and created by Vivian (last name
    at the time) were great. (or something to the affect)  Well my ex-hubby
    was hysterical and called the papers and said that they needed to
    do a retraction, BECAUSE everything that his wife did was a direct
    reflection on him and his career.  He wanted the print to say
    created by Mrs. His name.  
    nice guy eh?
    
    vivian

    How many of the complaints in this note are gender specific? Are
    peculiar food preferences restricted to men? Don't some women expect
    men to wait on them? Do all women bath when necessary? 
    
    Don't we have to carefully differentiate between what a specific
    man or woman does and what all men or women do?
    
    Bruce

    I don't like:
    
    Men who chew tobacco, men who know everything, men who can't take
    a bath or wash their clothes, men who know what's best for me (implying
    that I don't), men who smoke, men who believe that women should
    be 'barefoot and pregnant', men who refuse to believe that a woman
    can do *something* better than they can, men who make asinine
    assumptions regarding the differences between men and women.
    
    Obviously, some of the above apply to women friends or potential
    friends as well.
    
    I don't mind the 'Honey get me a beer' scenario at the end of a
    hard day, as long as when I come home at the end of the day and can
    say 'Honey get me a beer' and get one delivered to the couch with
    a smiling face who then asks me if I want to talk about anything.
    
    Elizabeth

    This is one that bothers me (men/women) - that dates a girl/guy and
    a few months later says that she/he is his one and only and tells her/him
    that they have a *special relationship* and doesn't want her/him to see
    anyone else and he/she believes that and finds out later that she
    /he is one of a small harem........I guess that's the same as being
    lied to ? eh?
    
    Re: 15
    
    Hi Andy!  Small world finding you in woman's notes!
    
    bs

re .25 (bs):

I agree, and will expand on the idea to say that I don't like men (or women) to
have double standards ("It's OK for me to do X, but you can't").

I also don't like it when men (or women :-)) assume that I enjoy doing
something (like clothes shopping), or will do something (like cleaning), or
can't do something (like math :-)) or won't do something (like build
sandcastles or go in the icy water :-)) because I'm a woman.

I also dislike it when people play mind games; I'd much prefer open
communication than playing "guess what I'm thinking".

Enough for now...

Jill

I'm still trying to figure out how not washing jeans brings the crotch
 closer to the knees.
  <_Jym_>

        .27: Denim stretches with wear, so denim clothes get
        progressively more loose and baggy as you wear them.  Washing
        shrinks the material back up.  Weird, perhaps, but true.
        
        	/dave

    men who say that thy want to be invovled in a womans life,but when
    a womans personal problem of some sort crops up,they abandon ship
    like an emotional cripple
    
    			kelly
    

    
    
    	I don't like it when my SO's can't communicate with
    	me.
    
    	Example:
    
    			I was going out with a guy who would clam
    	up every time something would bother him.  I would try and get
    	him to open up to me and he wouldn't.  So, I'd leave to think
    	alone.  That got him angry.  But I'm supposed to sit there and
    	watch him sulk and not butt in!!  Then this same person gets
    	mad when I don't tell him what's bothering me and says "But
    	we care about each other, you should be able to tell me!!"
    
    	"Practice what you preach!!"
    
    	Men ( and women ) who are possessive.  Jealousy is one thing
    	but to follow around your SO to see where they go is for the
    	birds.  And getting upset because your SO has friends of the
    	opposite sex.  (that one is also from personal experience)
    
    	Men who can't take 'no' for an answer (for anything)
    
    			JJ
    

    
    
    	OOps!!  In my first paragraph I meant to say
    	"I'd leave him so he could think alone"
    
    		Different meanings
    

    Men who watch T.V. at very inappropriate moments, sports in particular.
    
    I have to laugh though. I always thought the Celts were more attractive
    than me.
    
    M