Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    I have had an experience where I "gave in" to a bit of sexism. 
    It involved a raquetball mishap which gave me a deep cut on my upper
    lip.  I went to an emergency medical center, and was trying to decide
    if I should let the doctor on call stitch my lip or to call a plastic
    surgeon instead.  The doctor I saw was a woman, and old enough to
    have grown up in an age where young girls were expected to learn
    needlework.  I let her stich my lip, and indeed, she made tiny,
    delicate stitches, and I have no scar.  The (male) doctor who removed
    them griped about how small they were, and what trouble they were
    to remove!  I think if the doctor on call had been male, I would
    have felt far less inclined to let him do the job, and might have
    called the plastic surgeon.  I still felt a little uncomfortable
    with what I observed to be blatant sexism, but it's hard to be
    objective sometimes.  
    
    Rita
    
    

    That was not sexism; that was a Holmesian inference.
    							   Ann B.

    <heheheheheheh>  lovely, Ann.

    
    Thanks a trillion, Ann - I feel much better!
    
    Rita
    
    

    
    
    		Hi Terza!
    
    		I've had occasions delivering packages where I thought
    the woman I was delivering to was a secretary, and she wasn't.
    I felt terrible!  it probably didn't make her feel to well either!
    It's only happened a couple of times though.  for the most part
    I can tell, and I know many of the people in the facility that I
    work in.
    
    	Mike                                                  
    

    
    
    	And I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong with being a secretary!!
    It's just that if you're a senior software engineer, and someone
    comes up to you and hands you a pile of stuff to sign for (assuming
    that you are a secretary) you probably wouldn't like it!
    
    Mike

    Well, I'll bite.  What's different about how you hand a pile of
    stuff to a secretary?  
    
    The only times I "didn't like be treated like a secretary" was when
    I'd pick up their phone, and get treated to "honey" and "sweetie",
    and have the other person on the line be exceptionally rude when
    I didn't start transcribing their message immediately, or I didn't
    know exactly where so-and-so was.  I felt I wasn't treated like
    a human being!  I sure hope its different for the secretaries here
    at DEC!
    
    	Mez

    
    Re .6, how can you "tell the difference" between a secretary and
    a software engineer??  Is it that we look stupider or that we dress
    better?  You know, you don't have to get an engineering degree to
    be a member of the human race.  Most of us were born that way. 
    Remember that when dealing with people.  Hopefully, for both of
    us, you'll never have to deliver anything to my office.
    
    P.S.
    
    I can usually tell non-technical, non-management men at DEC because
    they're the ones who make it obvious when they leer at passing women!!
    
    

(Hi Mike!)

(Re: .8)

I don't know that anyone can tell the difference between a secretary and
a software engineer just by looking, although that could certainly be a
topic for debate.  (More on that below).  I think the point Mike was trying
to make was that he had a mindset for delivering a package to a secretary
and was surprised to discover that the person was, in fact, an engineer.
He was talking about his feeling of surprise, not throwing slurs about
secretaries.  (I'm being forward in interpreting Mike's words -- am I close,
Mike?)  

I believe some people are too sensitive to labels, both the person doing the 
labelling and the person being labelled.

As far as telling the differences just by looking, there are definite
activities (certainly!) that we associate with secretaries and definite
activities that we associate with engineers.  In addition to that, there
are certain attitudes we associate with engineers and secretaries that seem
to "stick out" all over a person. (I'm donning my asbestos suit).  NOTE:
Neither activities nor attitudes give us the right to treat any individual
badly in either a professional or personal sense!  But, being aware of our
own *initial* feelings before we do anything with them is a major step towards
improving our relations with others.

				'Nuff said,


							Terza

    
    Re .8, well, you can certainly excuse a lot of what's wrong in this
    world by calling other people sensitive to labels.
    
    Lorna
    

Re .8
>    I can usually tell non-technical, non-management men at DEC because
>    they're the ones who make it obvious when they leer at passing women!!

I'm fairly new at DEC, so I may be missing something, but personally I am
offended  by  your  comment  --  some maintenance men (I could tell by their
uniforms or what they were doing, not _leering_) that I have come in contact
with are more friendly than most of the other people I don't know at DEC.

Perhaps I  am  missing  something  because I'm not the type of person people
(male  or  female)  usually leer at, but I really think a little courtesy to
the rest of the human race is in order.  

    Overheard in a women's bathroom in MR1, several years ago:
    
    "It's getting so you can't tell the engineers from the secretaries
    anymore!"
    
    "Oh, yes, you can: the engineers don't dress up and don't wear makeup."
    
    Well, it applies to me, but not to all woman engineers I know.
    
    Labels/humor/stereotypes/pick-your-own-noun go every which way.

    
    Re .12, obviously the point is that how can anyone tell the
    difference between women engineers and women secretaries, and further
    more why should it be important?  Of course, all secretaries neither
    dress better or look stupider than engineers!  As long as each person's
    boss and co-workers know what the person's job is so they get the
    correct assignments, etc., why should it matter?
    
    I can't understand why a woman engineer would be insulted to have
    someone think she was a secretary.  Afterall, it's not the same
    thing as being mistaken for excrement, is it?  How would a woman
    engineer feel, if she heard that a woman product manager was horribly
    insulted to have someone think she was an engineer, and in turn
    how would that product manager feel if she found out that a woman
    cost center manager was agast at having someone think she was a
    mere product manager!!  There's always somebody with a better job,
    but in the end we are all people, and we all deserve to be treated
    with equal courtesy.
    
    Lorna
    

    It's NOT that I am insulted if someone I don't know assumes my role
    is the one s/he needs filled at the moment, and doesn't really know
    or care what I do.
    
    It's when by boss, an engineer in charge of a group of engineers
    (including me) asks me how well I type, and explains that there
    is this list of 300,000 error messages whose error numbers must
    be replaced by text, and the engineer who wrote the software just
    doesn't have time right now to type in his own error texts...
    This is a true story, happened to me in MR, and the man didn't know
    why I should object.

RE: .13
>    I can't understand why a woman engineer would be insulted to have
>    someone think she was a secretary.  

	You're right, it *shouldn't* be an insult, but I have gotten
	bogged down in questioning WHY did they assume I was a secretary.
	It's the same problem of that being a traditional "woman's job",
	and I get annoyed that they could only see a woman (not me in
	particular) in a "woman's job", not a traditional "man's job".  
	The problem is that the reverse doesn't happen.  Do secretaries get 
	mistaken for engineers a lot?  Do men EVER get mistaken for
	secretaries?  It's not a question of being mistaken for someone
	whose job is different, it's being placed in a sexist role, and
	unfortunately the secretary job has been one of the few jobs that
	has been "OK" for women for years.

	I have nothing against being a secretary, I also get insulted when
	people assume I do the cooking for my family.  I'm insulted because
	people make assumptions about me because I'm a woman, and a lot
	of these assumptions are sexist stereotypes.  I will *not* be
	insulted by someone assuming I'm a secretary or any other job
	because I'm doing some task that can be associated with that job.

	...Karen

    re: 13
    
    You can't understand why...maybe the same reason that you are put
    out by the term girl....you found it offensive. 
    
    
    Ann

    
    Well, as a secretary, *I* get insulted when people give me work
    to do for them that has nothing whatsoever to do with Digital. 
    For example, there was the engineer that asked me to copy a whole
    bunch of stuff that concerned the sale of his condominium.  It took
    me 2 hours to copy all that stuff.  I couldn't help but wonder why
    DEC should pay me to do that for him, and whether he would have
    been willing to pay me out of his own pocket to do the job.  A lot
    of people treat secretaries as though they were some sort of personal
    attendants who are here to satisfy *any* need they may happen to
    have!
    
    Another thing that bothers me is when people *assume* that just
    because I am a secretary I must run the coffee set-up in my current
    work area.  The fact is I don't drink coffee and am not really sure
    how to make it in those drip machines.  Actually the coffee is run
    by one of the engineering managers, so I just look at them blankly
    and say, "I'm sorry, I don't have anything to do with the coffee."
     They are somewhat taken aback.
    
    People also seem to assume secretaries can sew on buttons and such
    things.  What do they want a mother, or a secretary?  I hate to
    dew and in my personal life have been fortunate in finding men who
    can sew!
    
    Nobody likes to be stereotyped.
    
    Lorna
    

    I am a secretary and unfortunately, in our area, so many of our
    coffee supplies have been stolen that we've had to store them in
    a locked cabinet.  I have no objection to making coffee -- especially
    first thing in the morning since I need coffee to get going.  But
    during the day, if a manager comes by to tell me that we are out,
    I calmly give him/her the key.  They are sometimes surprised - and
    one manager told me he didn't have time to make it.  I then replied
    that I was rather busy and just didn't know when I'd get around
    to doing it.  I then left the key on my desk.  When I stepped away,
    the key was gone ,the coffee was made - and the key left in front
    of the coffee machine.  I just laughed - children will have their
    little play!
    
    As to copying non-DEC material for a manager - especially 2 hours
    worth -- again, depending upon how busy you were - and who the manger
    was -- it was up to you to determine what, if anything, you should/
    could have said.  Frankly, if it was me, I would have made darn
    sure that I was officially busy and could ONLY have done the work
    for him/her during my lunch or after work as long as he/she knew
    that you were going to be paid overtime.  After all, what kind of
    FAVOR did the manager do for you?
    
    Do managers want secretaries or mothers???  In most cases, especially
    the managers that hire the mature woman, they want both!  I draw
    the line at many things - especially sewing.  I don't do floors,
    walls, windows or sewing.  I find one of the most important attributes
    a secretary - especially one of 40 can have is a smile and a sense
    of humor.   We have a manager who sits close by me and is a slob
    in the respect that his daily newspapers ends up on the floor -
    a few days worth.  It annoyed me to the point that I managed to
    find the opportunity to tell a co-worker an incident that my son
    told me when he was in basic training.  There was a big sign in
    the barracks that said - YOUR MOTHER ISN'T HERE - PICK UP AFTER
    YOURSELF.  We sort of laughed and talked about how sloppy come people
    are.  It's amazing - the newspapers don't accumulate any more.
    
    As I said - some people NEVER let the child in them go - until it's
    pointed out.

        I don't know about the other guys, but every now and then I have
        been mistaken for a secretary, and I always thought I looked
        like an engineer. I suspect it's because if I need something
        done, I do it myself, and if I'm near a ringing phone I answer
        it. People around the copier or answering someone else's phone
        are obvious secretaries or something.
        
        It can be quite frustrating how people make assumptions and
        can't get past them. Many times I've answered a phone, asked the
        person to wait while I find a pen or something and received a
        lecture about being better organized and not making important
        people wait. "Heh, I was walkin' past Fred's office and the
        phone wasn't being answered. You'da prefered I let it ring? Now
        that I've found his post-it pad, what was your name again."
        
        Much of what you see when women are mistaken for secretaries or
        when secretaries aren't treated with the proper dignity is, in
        my opinion, plain old lack of consideration, and ego-centrism.
        Some people just feel outrageously important (or maybe they just
        wish they were). They don't bother to think, or to consider
        other's views. The most they've learned is that you've got to be
        careful around men in suits, 'cause they're probably really
        important. It's not that they hate or feel superior to women per
        se, but that they are afraid of (or "respect") a certain class
        of men.
        
        It IS grossly unfair that women get less of this kind of
        "respect", but I think the root problem is the number of
        incosiderate self-important yahoos loose in the world. Even if
        they learn that women in suits are likely to be important an
        grudgingly defered to there will, by definition, still be more
        people that they treat like dirt than ones they treat with
        civility. 
        
        JimB.

    I remember once in MR when our regular secretary was on vacation,
    our group used a tag to fill her role.  I walked by and did a double
    take - the temporary secretary was a man in his early twenties,
    a Worcester-hippie-type.  I remember feeling like I had been caught
    doing something embarassing, because the rational part of
    my mind knew that this reaction to a male secretary was not in accord
    with my principles!  I guess we all have work to do...

    Re .19, I agree that the basic problem is that there are too many
    "inconsiderate self-important yahoos" out there - and they aren't
    all men either!!!
    
    Regarding answering/be interrupted on the phone, I've noticed that
    whenever I'm on the phone if someone comes into my office they just
    start *talking* to me about what they want.  They seem to *assume*
    that because i'm a secretary I can't be talking about anything
    important.  There have been times when I've been in the middle of
    booking international flights and had someone barge in and start
    shouting about some copies or slides they need!!  I was saying,
    "Pardon me, what was that flight number?" and the person in my office
    is shouting, "I SAID I need 2 copies and slides in 1/2 an hour!"
     But, whenever *I* go into a managers or engineers office and *they're
    * on the phone, they see that it's "only a secretary" and usually
    turn around and refuse to look at me so that I'll go away.  They
    have *no* idea what I'm there for and I've been a secretary long
    enough to have a good idea what's worth interrupting someone for.
     I have fantasies about being ignored by a manager and then finally
    telling him, "Oh, by the way, I was going to tell you but you were
    *busy*.  Two hours ago I just found out that your entire family
    was killed when your house exploded this morning.  I thought that
    you might want to know before you reach the driveway tonite!  Excuse
    me for being so rude as to bother you."  :-)    (my very first smiley
    face - exciting isn't it)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE:17
    When I interviewed for this job I told him "I DON"T DO COFFEE!"..
    I don't drink it, it won't make it, clean the area, buy it or collect
    money for it.  He said "no problem"...... It's one of those issues
    that secretaries were adament about in the 70's...
    
    RE: 21
    How true.  One time I was meeting someone in WMO and when I arrived
    he said "I just called your office and no one answered" and I said
    "if I'm not there the phone isn't answered".  
    
    

    \
    	
    	re.8 and .9
    
    	Yes Terza!   Thank you!  I knew I shouldn't have written anything,
    I always have trouble getting the point I have in mind across. 
    I'm trying to say that, well, around here, I deliver to the secretaries
    for the most part, then they redisburse their groups stuff to them.
    
    	 Does that help any??
    
    	Mike

    
    	re .8 to .15
    
    	Waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute!!!!!!!!!
    
    	I don't care who works WHAT job!  Whether your a secretary,
    a manager, an engineer or the president of these United States!!!!
    I go for personalities, not job descriptions.  
    
    	Besides I DID say that it was all a mistake, and that I WAS
    embarrassed.  Didn't I?!!  I do believe I did, and if I didn't,
    I am now.  Is that pretty much clear cut?  Or do I have to elaborate
    more?  
    
    	Mike ;-(

    Several years ago, when I worked for another large company, I applied
    for a position that was posted.  The position was being filled by
    a male, but he was being promoted.  I was accepted , was given my
    start date, but when I arrived that Momday morning the clerk who
    had assisted the male employee was also gone.  I asked the hiring
    manager where she was and he said that she also took another job.
    I asked who was going to do the typing that was necessary, he looked
    at me with amazement and said you will.  I politely informed him
    that I didn"t know how. He said that's why we hired you, what do
    you mean you don't type.  Not once in the interview was I asked
    if I could type.It was assumed that because I was female that I
    could type.  Needless to say a new clerk was hired.
    This was also back in the era when a lot of jobs were still being
    posted male and female.
    

    re .25
    Not so very long ago, when I was in high school, my mother warned
    me to never admit to being able to type, or I would never attain
    success as a professional engineer.  She knew!
    
    /Charlotte

        .26: Actually, I'd be lost if I couldn't type.  I know some
        Software Engineers make do with hunt & peck, but I'm very glad I
        learned to type well.  Typing and computers are virtually
        inseparable thus far... every engineer (at least) should know
        how.   Computers are everywhere, and not knowing how to type is
        a lot like not being able to write, or talk... and getting more
        so all the time.  Quick and accurate typists have a distinct
        advantage. 
        
        One reason a lot of top executives won't use computers is
        that they refuse to learn to type.  It's "beneath them".
        Secretaries type.  Managers... well, I guess they're just
        supposed to sit around and look dumb while the secretary
        runs the business for 1/10th their pay.
        
	Assuming you're a secretary because you can type is about
        as absurd as assuming you're an actor because you can speak
        aloud... and for much the same reasons.
                
        	/dave

    
    re: .27
    
    I wouldn't make that generalization.  I write LISP code --  a LOT
    of lisp code, and touch typing wouldn't help me.  I'm not a touch
    typist, but I type fairly quickly because I've been playing with
    keyboards since I was ten.  I'm not as fast as a touch typist, but
    I'm not sure how much it would help.
          
    
    Not that I'm putting down people who can type, which has always
    sort of amazed me.
    
    DFW

        .28: You already admitted that a touch typist can be faster than
        you.  Which means that such a person could write LISP code
        faster than you.  People who write code "on the fly" have other
        factors slowing them down than just typing speed... but few
        people do that *all* the time.
        
        Do you comment your code?  That's straight english text,
        and you know what to say.  You could touch type that much
        more quickly.  Do you write release notes, or even memos
        to tech writers on what you changed?
        
        Do you write NOTES in notes conferences?  The faster you
        can whip these suckers off, the more time you have left in
        your day for writing LISP code...  :-)
        
        As for your final remark... my first exposure to a typewriter
        was typing class in jr. high.  So I've never really done
        anything *but* touch typing.  What amazes *me* is how fast
        some of these two finger hunt & peck typers can go!  But
        it still strikes me as learning how to push your car really
        fast, instead of getting the engine fixed... :-)
        
        	/dave

    I'm a tech writer and also do outside freelance writing. 
    
    Believe me, the slow part about writing is not getting the words 
    through your fingers to the keyboard. The slow part is getting the
    words your brain. The rest is gravy.
    
    -bs
    

    
    Well, if you learned to touch type on an LK201 keyboard, it might
    go faster.  VAXLisp uses most of them weird characters you don't
    find on a regular keyboard.  Not to mention what you have to do
    to use function keys.
    
    Again, not to decry touch typing, although the most famous typist
    I know, Harlan Ellison, types 120 wpm, no errors, with two fingers
    on a manual typewriter.
    
    I'm also an amateur fiction writer, and -bs's observation about
    getting the words in your brain is sooth.
    
    DFW

    Hey, folks, I didn't say I did not LEARN to touch type, only that I
    didn't ADMIT to having learned it on the first few rounds of job
    applications I ever filled out.  Being able to type is big help,
    but having my first paying summer job be as a Fortran programmer rather
    than as a clerk was also a big help.  That is now long enough ago
    that I don't put experience that old on my resume, but I still think
    Mother was right.  Her own degree was in mathematics, but she worked
    as a secretary before we were born; it was tough to get a professional
    position in mathematics thirty years ago.  My degrees are in computer
    science.
    
    /Charlotte                         
    

    I've had an interesting experience in the group I'm with at DEC
    as an Admin Secretary.  Two of the managers, and several of the
    engineers I work for don't seem to understand that part of my job
    includes "grunt" work -- copying and running errands, etc -- and
    they constantly apologize for giving me work to do (they've never
    had a *professional* secretary before).  I find this very annoying!
    
    After all, I'm in this profession by choice, not because I'm stupid
    or uneducated (3.95 GPA in getting my B.S.), or because I can't
    do anything else -- both assumptions I've dealt with often.
    
    I've also dealt frequently with the assumption that I'm a
    *professional* (read non-administrative) employee.  This certainly
    doesn't bother me, and since I do my job well and PROFESSIONALLY,
    it shouldn't be offensive if someone else assumes a "professional"
    is an administrative/secretarial employee.  However, if those
    assumptions are based on the body inside the clothes rather than
    the observed activity, I would be annoyed, too.

    I think that the "pink ghetto" of secretarial careers would fade
    away gradually if more "professionals" would bend to the point of
    answering their own phones/making their own copies/SCHEDULING THEIR
    TIME BETTER, and more secretaries would make it clear that they
    are "professionals", not just empty minds pushing keys on a typewriter.
    Initiative and quality work will make the title "administrative
    assistant" mean something other than just a pat on the back.