Conference yukon::christian_v7

      after reading all of 613, ive gotten answer concerning the vineyard
    .
    

Be aware the the Toronto Church is no longer associated with the Vinyard
churches.  They had about as civil a church split I've ever seen.  The
Vineyard leadership decided that there was too much happening in Toronto that
was too different from the rest of the Vineyard churches for Toronto to
remain under their leadership any more.  Without claiming that Toronto was
all wrong, they simply told them that they were going to have to take their
own path.

Paul

   The "NorthEast Metro Vineyard" church here on the Northside of Atlanta
   is also no longer associated with the Vineyard churches.  They, too, had
   about as amiable and civil a split as I've ever seen.

   Their new name is "NorthEast Metro Christian Fellowship"; pray for them 
   as they, too, take a path different from the other Vineyard churches.

    There are Vineyards in the Phoenix metro area that also left. 
    Obviously, the fleshing-out started by Toronto has infected many of
    them.
    
    Mike

Hi,

I am currently attending a Vineyard church now and am familiar with the split of
the Toronto church.

When I heard some of the stuff going on in Toronto I was very concerned, and
spoke to our Pastor about it.

My interpretation of what the Vineyard does is that we do not incite through
emotions or any ohter means, emotional reactions of any kind or encite any
manifistations, but we will alos allow the Holy Spirit to come into our presence
as He deems.

We have wonderful worship (and I haven't seen any lyrics referring to a
"thing"), wonderful teaching time, and wonderful ministry time.  The church I am
currently attending (Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Central Maryland) is a
true family of God, and I am blessed to be a part of this body.

I came from a main stream church and was VERY critical and cautious about ANY
thing that I didn't feel comfortable with.

I have not seen ANY thing out of line in our chuch - certainly nothing like was
talked about in note 613.  

If you want to find out more, they have a web site:
http://groke.beckman.uiuc.edu/AVC/avc-home.html

Check out the AVC Papers Archive for Statement of Faith and Positions as well as
John Wimbers response to the "Toronto Blessing".

Hope this helps,

Lorey

    Here's a little insight into the Vineyard history and its connections
    with Calvary Chapel.  It's taken some of the Vineyard founders about a
    decade to realize where they erred.
    
    Vineyard was actually formed by a few Calvary Chapel pastors that
    wanted extrabiblical freedom in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. 
    I know of 2 of those pastors that have left their Vineyard churches and
    returned to Calvary Chapel within the last 3 years.  John Wimber is the 
    only one left that I know of.
    
    This tense moment above came to a head at the '83 Calvary Chapel 
    pastors' conference in Costa Mesa.  Tom Stipe, one of the above pastors
    who has since returned (was the pastor of a large Vineyard in Denver), 
    accused Pastor Chuck Smith of quenching the Spirit.  He has since
    issued a public apology to Pastor Chuck upon his return.  Mr. Stipe
    realizes now that we didn't need another Assembly of God, we already
    had one.
    
    regards,
    Mike

     "mr. stripe realizes we didnt need another assembly of god, we already
    had one" mike, please clarify what you mean?
           i have been highly interested in calvary chapels but they are to
    far from my house. there is a vineyard christian fellowship in
    melrose,ma. near my home though. i called them and they are no longer
    associated with toronto.
    
       thomas
    

               \|/ ____ \|/
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               ~  \__U_/  ~----4 8's and a plaindrome snarf!

>     "mr. stripe realizes we didnt need another assembly of god, we already
>    had one" mike, please clarify what you mean?
    
    They pretty much operate the same.  I've spent over 15 years in the
    Assemblies of God denomination.  Basically, there is too much emphasis
    on the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and emotionalism and not much
    teaching.  What little teaching there is, it has no application.
    
    Mike

    Oh Mike,
    
    how true that is, even here 'japunumop'. And yet... it was some 20
    years ago (whew!) that I received some of the best teaching I ever had
    in an AoG church. However, I was mucho dissapointed several years ago
    when I attended the local AoG (walking distance from home) for 5 weeks
    running (long month) and watched as people got hyped up on emotion,
    some 'guy' (the Pastor) got up - read a passage and then preached about
    nothing in particular, and definitely nothing to do with the passage he
    had just read!
    
    I left saddened.
    
    H

 It bothers me greatly, this emphasis on the emotional.  The result is 
 people seeking this emotional buzz and eventually they need a bigger
 "buzz" til they reach the point that there isn't one.  And because
 there was no real teaching of the Word, there is nothing left for them
 to fall back on.  And they find themselves disolusioned and angry at 
 God.




 Jim

    I really think it varies from church to church.  My AG church stresses
    teaching and it quite nice.
    
    Jill
    

      Hi,
    
       I definately know what you are saying Jim. I've been on both sides,
    fundamental and charasmatic, as you may know. I know the message can
    get lost in a service, with all the emotional hype there can be
    from people. This is why i'm gearing more back to fundamentals and
    want to go to "church" and hear a solid message preached. It's            
    worship when we pay attention to the word being preached and
    meditate on it and apply it to our lives.
       I remember visiting a church once when the pastor was "trying" to
    preach a message but some people where hitting the floor "laughing" and
    others in "tongues" in a loud manner. God is not the author of confusion
    and i, with some others, were confused. It does not edify me
    spiritually when all of a sudden a person is speaking in "tongues" and
    the word preached comes to a stop. I feel there should be freedom to
    worship and some order in a church but i don't know where the line is
    to be drawn and i know that doesnt sound so "free". I personally love
    to worship the Lord in song and music and that "part" of a service also
    edifies my soul.
        Our culture thrives on entertainment, emotional lifting, etc. and
    it carries it's way into the "church". I do know the reality that we
    have emotions and God can touch our emotions in a spiritually
    way by way of his holy spirit, i do not deny this, it's real to me.
    However i do not trust the flesh for what can "feel" like it's from the
    spirit can be counterfeit and be of the flesh. I remember a fundamental
    baptist years back, before my last 4 years at A0G church, telling me
    " don't trust your feelings." My experience has lead me to believe he is
    right. I've been in services where people have been speaking in
    "tongues" and the music's going and people are running up and down the
    pews, etc. etc. etc. only to realize after the service that it was like
    an emotional "workout" where people had to let it out and or pump it
    up. True worship is being obedient to God. We can dance, sing, jump up
    and down, go church hopping to look for the best emotional up's but
    true worship is obedience to him.
    
                      in love, Thomas

    Hi Thomas,
    
    If you are looking at various churches, we've been going to  Nazarane
    church in Nashua, NH, Community Chapel, and I can highly recommend it
    as worth a visit or two.  Its amazing what God is doing
    there, we are so excited about the people coming to Him from the
    ministries there and what will happen in the next several years in S.
    New Hampshire. I don't know where you sit, and I don't know if all
    Nazanrene churches are like ours (not having grown up in that church)
    but its good solid wesleyan based theology, missions has a strong
    focus.
    
    God will lead you to where He wants you, what a relief to know!
    
    -- Marian 
    
    

    I sometimes watch TBN out of curiousity.  There are several of them on
    there that I can watch for 15 minutes and still not know what point
    they are trying to make or hear several heretical statements or both.
    
    Mike

Well, as far as the Vineyard I attend goes...

	We beleive that we shouldn't "stop" the Holy Spirit from touching
anyone, but we certainly do not play on emotions in any way (our Pastor has
specifically talked about this), and do not encourage "manifestations".  We also
will not let any reactions interrupt the service or teaching.  (As a member of
the "Flow Patrol" - cute phrase for usher - we have been asked to direct
anyone disturbing the service to an appropriate area).

	Our Pastor's teaching are ALWAYS in the word, and he make execellent
applications (I keep wondering why every Sunday he is talking to me! ;-) )

	I have learned more in the two years I've been attending this church
than I did in all my years in a Luterhan church (I'm not bad-mouthing
Lutherans!).  We just finished the book of Acts.

	All I can say, is maybe you should try attending, and find out what it
is really like.

Lorey

    Lorey, glad to hear you're sitting under some good expository teaching.

    What Lorey said.  I attend the Vineyard in Chelmsford, MA.
    We have worship, prayer, and the Word is taught.  There may
    be some Vineyards where this is not so, but I'm sure that 
    there are Baptist churches, Methodist churches, AoG churches,
    etc. where this is true also.  Come and visit us!
    
    Sherril
    

      Is there a Martha's Vineyard???

    Sure is.  Gallo has a Vineyard too.