Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Hi Pam,
    
    Get Nathan's Father involved immediately - not as the bad guy but as
    Nathan's Father.  Both of you have a serious, planned discussion with
    Nathan concerning the sinfulness of his behavior and the obligation he
    has before God to repent of it and to obey in the honoring of his
    father and mother.  Consistently punish him for disrespectful behavior
    including the hateful language he is using toward you.  Such language
    also is disrespect.
    
    jeff

	I don't believe I'm going to say this....but I agree fully with Jeff. 


Glen

    Agreed.  You may even need disciplinary measures beyond your norm for
    the disrespectful comments.  
    
    Mike

Agreed with Jeff and Glen.  Is this a first? ;-) ;-) ;-)

Can Nathan respond on grounds of spiritual responsibility?  If so, you can 
amphasise that this is a serious issue by asking if he wants God to spare 
him to enjoy a long life, and point out that the commandment to honour 
your father and mother carries a penalty for breaking it, in Exodus 20:12, 
and Deuteronomy 5:16.  If he is tempted to dismiss this as Old Covenant
(would he?!), the promise is also referenced in Ephesians 6:2 'Honour thy
father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise' - the
promise being 'that you may live long, and that it may go well with you...'

There was provision for a son who refused to be submissive to his mother
and father - whose rebellion totally rejected the line of authority and
training that God has established.  It might shock Nathan to read
Deuteronomy 21:18-21, and realise that this is how his behaviour could be
perceived, but sometimes it takes an awareness of the extreme to make a
child pull into line early on, way before they get there!  Sometimes, too, 
when they're testing the limits, they 'have' to go rather far in expression 
before the realisation of where they have reached shocks them into excising
it totally.  Maybe each year he has been working up to the limits of his
'rebellion', in order that he may be brought to a place of deeper
repentance and blessing before the LORD...

You know him, and will know if any of this could have the right effect!

Will be praying.

					God bless
							Andrew

I agree with all the agree-ers.  Nathan needs to understand that when he
shows you disrespect, he is showing disrespect to the entire family.  Do
you have any idea what is triggering this? What is he like when its not
just around his birthday?  

Leslie

    
    Thank you so much everyone for your help.  I guess when I get home
    from work this afternoon, I will talk to J. about this and we will
    formulate a plan and figure out exactly how to handle it.  Thanks
    for the scripture reference Andrew.  I'm going to jot them down
    and discuss them with Nathan.  He, usually, has a tender heart for
    the Lord and never, ever willingly does anything that he knows
    would "hurt God's feelings".
    
    Usually, he is a wonderful child, very much a boy, but full of
    loving words and quite obedient.  I think that is why I am at
    such a loss when he acts like this.  Leslie, to answer your
    question about what is triggering this, I think it is a lot
    of things, not only his birthday, but his biological father
    moved out of the country without telling him, had not called
    in 7 months and then called last week to tell him that he
    has a half-sister that will be a year old this month, school
    is pretty stressful (gangs etc...), a family friend died Sunday
    after only a week long illness and basically his life
    is one crazy situation after another.  I guess everyone's life
    is like that, full of things that we can not control.  Normally,
    he does a good job of keeping perspective, knowing that God is
    in control and keeping a good attitude, but when it is time for
    his birthday to roll around, the whole world seems to collide
    and he turns in to a terror for about a month and a half.  
                                                               
    Thanks for you help,
    Pam

    Sounds like there have been an awful lot of stressful events in his
    life, and that he is acting out of character.  He needs to learn other
    ways of coping with strong emotion without lashing out at those 
    closest to him.  An important thing for all human beings to learn.

    Leslie      

    Hi Sis!
    
    I know you probably think I have perfect kids and MINE would never do
    what Natan has done, BUT... :-)  Clayton is 9 and he's done the same
    thing to me.
    
    I want to thank you for sharing the emotional life situations that are
    currently surrounding Nathan.  They are NOT to be ignored.  Do you
    think it possible that Nathan is ANGRY at his biological father and
    taking it out on you?
    
    I'd first try to root out the cause of the symptoms of his behavior.
    
    If it is possible, I'd suggest you begin asking Nathan some questions
    about how he feels about himself, his biological father, J and
    yourself.
    
    The key is don't tell him how he feels, but ask him questions that will
    lead him to acknowledge his feelings.
    
    It is important for him to KNOW that he is loved no matter WHAT he does
    or says to you.  It is best to not threaten punishment over-the-phone,
    for soon he will learn that you're not there to follow through and
    ignore you.
    
    I'm rambling quickly here because of time so let me see if I can net
    this out:
    
    1.  Ask him questions about he feels regarding his bio dad, J.,
    yourself and this new sister.
    
    2.  Make sure he understands that no matter what his behavior has been
    you love him unconditionally.
    
    3.  Explain that there are boundaries that he cannot cross and that
    these behaviors [disrespect, argumentative, temper tantrums] have a
    consequence.  The consequence needs to be defined so that he KNOWS what
    to expect for punishment.
    
    4.  Tie this alltogether with God's commandments and love for his
    children.  Proverbs has an excellent verse regarding a wise son hears
    the instruction of his parents and a foolish son will be left to his
    folly.  And tell Nathan that you KNOW he is a WISE son.
    
    5.  Don't take personal Nathan's attacks... remember he is just a child
    trying to process adult situations and abandonment from his bio dad. 
    He needs a Mom who can be all things to Him, friend, guide,
    disciplinarian and most importantly agape.
    
    Don't listen to Satan's negative comments that you have failed as a
    parent.  Be empowered by the Holy Spirit that you are exactly the Mom
    God chose for Nathan.
    
    Love you Sis, wish I had more time to be more defined.
    
    Nancy
    
    
    

    
    Thank you so much to everyone here and offline,
    
    Nathan and I had a long talk yesterday.  We discussed our
    feelings and thoughts and vulnerabilities.  I confessed to 
    mistakes that I have made and he to his.  We prayed and talked
    some more.  
    
    We both apologized and things were much better.  Unfortunately,
    J. was at work until after bedtime so we didn't get to discuss
    it with him but we will today.  
    
    We have never had family prayer time and I think that we are going
    to start.  It was so helpful to have that time of sharing with each
    other and with the Lord, I want to do it at least once a week now.
    A weekly "shot in the arm" if you will 8*)
    
    I don't expect this to be the last time this happens but so I am
    going to do so reading and studying of scripture and books, like
    "The Strong Willed Child" to get myself prepared for when and 
    if this happens again.  Not any time soon I hope!
    
    Nathan was truly repentent but I think it is going to take some
    prayer and work on my part to totally understand the root of
    his feelings.
    
    You all are wonderful!
    
    Pam

Thanks for the update, Pam - wonderful!  Praying towards the establishing
of your family prayers.  Great way of keeping on the right lines together!
Sorting out differences and problems on the right basis, before the LORD
truly unites family members - often to a better place than before the
problem arose! 

						God bless
								Andrew

    Pam,
    
    I have a strong-willed child and one of the things I've learned as
    difficult as it is, it is better to talk to them to wield out
    disciplines just because.  They have a higher intuitive level and are
    confident in themselves, their thoughts and their feelings.  Unless
    they can SEE, FEEL and HEAR for themselves the wrong that they have
    committed, harsh discipline only builds their resentment.  Oh yeah,
    they also can be very sensitive, tender-hearted at the same time they
    appear to be so tough... paradox, eh? :-)
    
    Root issues, Sis... you did a good job!  
    
    Love ya,
    Nancy

Pam,

Now for a long-term solution:

1.  Go to your nearest Christian bookstore and order a copy of the book 
_What the Bible Says About Child Training_, by J. Richard Fugate.  If you 
cannot do this, then send me e-mail with your home address and I will mail 
you a copy at my expense.

2.  Get in touch with the following organization.  Ask for the "Growing Kids
God's Way" book and video/audio tapes.  If you cannot do this, then send me
e-mail and I will mail you a copy of the program study guide at my expense.

================================================================================
Note 748.20          Christian Resources on the Internet/WWW            20 of 26
NETCAD::WIEBE "Garth Wiebe"                          15 lines  18-SEP-1995 12:18
                      -< Growing Families International >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Growing Families International is a discipleship program founded in 1989 by
Gary and Ann Marie Ezzo to provide practical instruction and training to
parents in raising their children according to God's standards and principles. 

The pointers are:

	World Wide Web:  www.opendoor.com/gfi/gfi.html
	E-mail:	 [email protected]
	Compuserve:  Go CIN-18
	Literature:  (800) 474-6264
	Conventional mail:  9259 Eton Avenue, Chatsworth, CA, 91311

My wife and I are relatively new parents (firstborn is 4 years old), have
benefitted immensely by GFI programs and materials, and have seen remarkable
changes in other families as well.

There is another opinion about the Ezzos - many, I for one, can't 
recommend them.   

Don Randall
Seattle

Re: .13  (Don Randall)

>There is another opinion about the Ezzos - many, I for one, can't 
>recommend them.   

Why not?

Re: .13  (Don Randall)

>There is another opinion about the Ezzos - many, I for one, can't 
>recommend them.   

Why not?

Re: .13  (Don Randall)

>There is another opinion about the Ezzos - many, I for one, can't 
>recommend them.   

Why not?

Re: last few

One thing that I admire about the Ezzo/GFI programs is the coherent and
consistent foundation in biblical ethics and principles, from which the
teaching is derived.  The secular and to some extent even some christian
bookstore shelves are lined with books purporting to teach the "how-to"s
of parenting.  But so much of this is just based on opinions and the wisdom
of man.

It is a rare occasion for me to recommend a specific person, program, or
ministry, but in this case I do.  With very few exceptions I have found
the GFI principles and programs beyond reproach.  They set out a clear
and concise path to success in raising children.

I would be interested in seeing anyone who wants to criticize Ezzo/GFI
substantiate their claim.  Hit-and-run pot shots speak for themselves. 

I recently heard 2nd hand about a May 25, 1996 _World_ magazine article that
was critical of the GFI ministry and programs. 

The following post is a rebuttal by Gary Ezzo, including excerpts from an
interview between him and the author of the article.

I am posting this FYI for anyone who might have read the article.

The following post is 372 lines in length.

June 3, 1996

Mr. Marvin Olasky
Editor, World Magazine
P.O Box 2330
Asheville, NC 28802

Ref:  Response to Roy Maynard's Article in the May 25 1996 Issue of World
magazine

Dear Mr. Olasky,

One downside to the explosion of choice in western society is that it leaves
people confused over whom to trust.  Information designed to assist us often
turns traitor causing us to doubt even when we didn't doubt before.  Who or
what can we trust is a question we seem to be confronted with every day.
Trust is under attack.  Growing Families International and World magazine agree
on this truth; Christians cannot, indeed must not, trust existing secular
ideologies.  Nor should we employ secular methods to accomplish our Christian
duties.  Christian journalism is not exempt from the latter. I believe that to
be the thrust of one of your recent books, Telling The Truth How to Revitalize
Christian Journalism.  In it you demonstrate your passion and call for ethical
journalism. 

I also know the desire for honest and accurate reporting is part of World's
mission statement.  But in Roy Maynard's article "The Ezzo's know best," the
journalistic ethics of the Washington Post not Jesus Christ ruled the day.
Roy Maynard employed techniques that include the use of general terms such as
"critics say" without attribution and failing to verify if what the "critics"
say is true; taking quotations out of context to prove a predetermined point;
and using such loaded words as "controversial" to put a negative spin on the
article.  Be assured, I have no difficulty with the few voices that criticize
our teaching, but to spin an article to bolster their credibility is nothing
less than shameful.  Obviously, we would not have 4,500 plus churches
interacting with our material if what Maynard stated about controversy or our
theology was anywhere near true. 

For a writer doing three months worth of research, Roy Maynard missed some
rather major points.  For example, he states Growing Kids God's Way is the
title of all of our programs and spans, as he wrote, "the cradle to the dorm
room" (page 18).  It is not.  It is the title of just one of the parenting
curriculums covering the early years of moral development (15 months) to
preteens.  He quotes us as saying, "Let the baby 'cry it out,' the Ezzo's
advise," (page 19), yet on page 147 of Preparation For Parenting it clearly
states the opposite of what he wrote.:  If your baby is hungry, feed him.  If
he routinely shows signs of hunger before his next scheduled feeding, then find
out the reason why rather than just letting him cry it out.  He stated we use
the crucifixion to justify letting a baby cry.  Preposterous!.  The context he
pulled the quote from was not dealing with a baby's crying but is part of an
entire section dealing with wrong views of God's character.  It is dealing with
the erroneous assertion that God's character will never let a baby cry and
that he would respond immediately and mechanically to stop all crying.  The
point of our comment was that God so loved the world that He did not intervene
when His own Son cried out on the cross.  If He did, there would have been no
redemption for us today.  Roy Maynard's article lacks credibility, accuracy and
legitimacy.  Mr. Olasky, Roy needs to read your book.  Why didn't he ask us a
single question about any of these concerns so the article at least could have
remained ethically objective?  He was invited to do so on three separate
occasions.  To find out why the article was filled with inaccuracies, we went
directly to the source and interviewed Roy Maynard.  We talked initially before
the article was written and then twice again after it appeared.  Our goal was
to honestly attempt to understand Roy's motive, choice of words, his purpose
for writing this piece, and the use of misquotes.  While he was open and honest
during this interview, he never accepted responsibility for any of his
inaccuracies.  Here is the other side of his story. 


1.	Gary E.

Roy, do you believe that this article represents the standard of integrity that
readers can expect from World magazine? 

	Roy M.

Yes, this is what they can expect.

2.	Gary E.

On page 18 you wrote, "critics say the Ezzos make claims including medical ones
that cannot be backed up."  Did you ask them about support for their claims?
How do you know what they said was true and not some exaggerated claim? 

	Roy M.

No, I did not ask them to support their claims and I don't know if they are
true.  Those were their statements.  I did not say (in the article) that they
were true statements. 

3.	Gary E.

Since you did not check back with us to get our response to their comments
(even though we requested that of you on three separate occasions), it appears
that you purposefully mislead your audience. 

        Roy M.

(No response to statement)

4.	Gary E.

On page 19 you stated, "Instead of feeding babies when they are hungry (on
demand), the Ezzos advocate feeding newborns every three hours."  Roy, this
quote is suggesting that we do not believe in feeding babies when they are
hungry and that demand feeding encourages nursing only when a baby is hungry.
Neither is true. 

You went on to misquote us by writing: "Let the baby 'cry it out,' the Ezzo's
advise."

Roy, that is the exact opposite of what is written in Preparation For
Parenting.  There we say: "It should go without saying that ignoring a hungry
baby's cry is unacceptable.  Under normal circumstances, any crying that occurs
just before a feeding should be limited, since the next event is mealtime.  If
your baby is hungry, feed him.  If he routinely shows signs of hunger before
his next scheduled feeding, then find out the reason why rather than just
letting him cry it out.  Your baby's routine is to serve you, you are not to
serve your baby's routine.  (p.  147) 

Why did you write in quotes, "Let the baby 'cry it out,' the Ezzo advise" when
we clearly state the opposite? 

	Roy M.

I'll have to get back to you on that. I know I heard that phrase somewhere.

5.	Gary E.

Roy, the point here is that not only did you misquote us, but you misquoted us
exactly the opposite of what we teach.  Does it bother that you misquoted
someone to this extent? 

	Roy M.

No.

6.	Gary E.

Let's go on.  Regarding Susan Watkinson:  Did you know her personally before
you wrote the article? 

	Roy M.

No.

7.	Gary E.

You wrote she tried the program for two weeks and said it didn't work for her.
Did you ask her how, just after two weeks, she knew the program didn't work?
(Whatever that means.) 

	Roy M.

No. She just said it didn't work.

 8. 	Gary E.

How do you know she even tried the program, or what she reported about her
friends was even true? 

	Roy M.

I don't know.

 9.	Gary E.

But you still reported her statements as fact even though you had no evidence
that she even tried it and furthermore, nowhere in our material do we promise
that the program work in two weeks. 

	Roy M.

(No response to question)

10.	Gary E.

You said Valerie Jacobson and her husband studied the audio tape series and
the Bible and decided they had another way to parent.  What did they learn
from the Bible that told them to demand feed, since that is obviously what they
did? 

	Roy M.

But I didn't say they learned anything from the Bible that supported demand
feeding.

11.	Gary E.

But you implied to the reader by the use of your words that she found another
way in the Bible.

	Roy M.

Yes, I did write that but that is not what she really said.

12.	Gary E

What are you saying?  You editorialized her statement?  Would you mind telling
me what she did say? 

	Roy M.

(Pause, reading from his notes), she said she couldn't find where the Bible
taught about schedule feeding a baby. 

13.	Gary E.

But Roy, that is exactly what we teach right in the opening paragraph of the
first chapter of Preparation For Parenting, and then again later in the same
chapter.  Here, let me read it to you. 

"Scripture has very few specific mandates for practical applications in the
realm of parenting, especially infant parenting.  It provides the spiritual
goals of parenting, but not exact or specific how-tos."  Further in the
chapter, (page 26) we state:  "When it comes to a method of feeding, the Bible
is silent.  It does not speak of demand feeding, clock feeding, or the PDF
plan.  No one can elevate a method as being spiritually right or wrong." 

It appears again that you editorialized a statement to fit your story and by
doing so misled your readers away from what we teach.  This doesn't bother you?

	Roy M.

No.

14.	Gary E.

You quoted William Sears to say the Ezzo's program is damaging, splitting
churches.  It hurts babies.  Did Dr. Sears offer any support of these
accusations? 
	
	Roy M.

These were his statements, I didn't say they were true.  They were just his
opinions.

15.	Gary E.

Did you press him for support of his statements?

	Roy M.

No.

16.	Gary E.

Okay, so as a matter of responsible journalism, do you have a minimal
obligation to find out if what a critic is saying is even true? 

	Roy M.

No. I am not responsible for the truthfulness of his statements. I am only
responsible for reporting what he said accurately. 

17.	Gary E.

You stated that Sears told you that churches were splitting because of the
program.  How many churches did he say? 

18.	Roy M.

He didn't say a number.

19.	Gary E.

Roy, we're in 4,000+ churches here and around the world.  You cited this as a
major issue.  Did he mean we split one hundred churches?  Fifty churches?  Did
he give you names of ten churches? 

	Roy M.

No. I didn't ask him.

20.	Gary E.

Can you tell me what he did say?

	Roy M.

(Reading from notes) He said he heard about a few churches that had some
problems with some of your people being too zealous. 

21.	Gary E.

Let me try to understand this.  You report in a national publication an
unsubstantiated opinion as if it were true and as if it was a major problem.
Aren't you obligated to be slightly more balanced in your reporting? 

22.	Roy M.

No.  I already told you.  I am not responsible for the accuracy of anyone's
opinion, only to report what they say accurately. 

23.	Gary E.

You stated at the end of the article that we make the dubious claim that "their
method (referring to the Ezzos) can generate a type of spiritual inertia in
children."  Roy, where did you read that? 

	Roy M.

You said that in your little booklet, The Bible and Common Sense Parenting.

24.	Gary E.

I have the book in front of me.  Where do we say the Ezzo method produces a
type of spiritual inertia?  We don't say "our method" will do that. 

	Roy M.

(No response to question)

25.	Gary E.

Here is that entire paragraph from which you lifted one sentence out of.

There is no way that positive parental behavior can eradicate the sin nature
of a child, but it can help mold the child during the early years to receive
the things of God as he matures.  Positive parental behavior creates a type of
spiritual inertia.  By that I mean, once parents have instilled biblical
patterns into the child, their training should carry him to the point where
God's spirit can take control of the reins of his heart.  (BCSP) 

Our point is basic to spiritual training.  Christian training in the home
should always be moving children toward God.  And the sanctifying grace of
Christian parents who remain obedient to God will carry the child until the
Holy Spirit regenerates the heart.  This is what you call a dubious claim? 
	
	Roy M.

That is how I interpreted it.

26.	Gary E.

Roy, if there was confusion on any point why did you not pursue us for our
response to their charges? 

	Roy M.

I did meet with you and asked you questions when we went out for coffee.

27.	Gary E.

Roy, you met with us briefly over a cup of coffee but asked very few questions,
and none of which really had anything to do with what you put in your article.
You did not ask us a single question about controversy in churches, how feeding
a baby routinely hurt them, what we believe about letting babies cry it out,
feeding babies when they're hungry, what happens when friends don't agree,
crying and the crucifixion of Christ, spiritual inertia, just to mention a few.
Roy, you misled us and the public.  This doesn't trouble you? 

28.	Gary E. 	

One last question Roy.  When your baby arrives in September are you going to
demand or schedule feed your baby? 

	Roy M.

No we are planning on following many of your schedule feeding principles.  We
have a doctor in our church who interacts with your material.  He is really a
sharp guy.  If there was any problem with your teaching he would have picked it
up. 

Conclusion:

In the first five paragraphs of his article, Roy Maynard summarized the obvious
results of this program.  The teaching yields good kids who obey the first
time, look out for each other, children who are polite and respectful to each
other and to visitors. And this is what the critics are upset about? 

	Sincerely,

	
	
	Gary Ezzo