Conference yukon::christian_v7

>	It's as simple as that, isn't it?

As to whether killing one's self is right or wrong in God's eyes, yes, of
course it is as simple as that.

Convincing the person contemplating it of that is quite another matter.

There's also the question of forgiveness.  God forgives ALL sins.  But does
the opportunity for that forgiveness extend to beyond death, i.e. can the
person be forgiven after death for the sin of killing themselves?  That's not
as simple either.

Paul

    I don't agree.  I don't believe that just because one kills themselves
    they are sentenced to hell.
    
    

    Re: Note 789.1 by PAULKM::WEISS

�>	It's as simple as that, isn't it?

�As to whether killing one's self is right or wrong in God's eyes, yes, of
�course it is as simple as that.
    
    I agree. It is as simple as that. Murder is wrong, whether you did it
    to another or to yourself.

�There's also the question of forgiveness.  God forgives ALL sins.  But does
�the opportunity for that forgiveness extend to beyond death, i.e. can the
�person be forgiven after death for the sin of killing themselves?  That's not
�as simple either.
    
    Actually, I think it is equally simple. As you said, God forgives ALL
    sins. To which I would add: past, present, and future. He certainly
    doesn't like it when we violate His plan, and it somehow probably
    affects us (even in eternity), but once we're saved we're saved.
    
    	BD�

    What about throwing yourself on a hand grenade so that your buddies
    will escape injury and death?  That is a form of suicide if you think
    about it.  Samson committed suicide and yet the Bible says he will be
    in heaven.
    
    And how about an illness such as depression where, chemically speaking,
    you are not responsible for your actions due to the chemical imbalance
    in your brain?  One could easily think it was the best thing to do all
    around to just step under a bus.  After all, they think, it would be
    better for everyone concerned if they were no longer around.
    
    This is not as cut and dried as you might think.  Thankfully God is
    still in charge here, and He sees every secret thing.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet Brown

>    	and your point is.....?

That God calls suicide sin.

That He told us this in the Bible.  (The declaration is not "man-made".)

That all Christians should therefore recognize it to be sin.

How someone goes about asking God for forgiveness after committing this
sin is a related topic for discussion.

/john

    John,
    
    I think this is where protestant and catholicism splits completely.  It
    is obvious that you think that we must be confessed of all sin prior to
    death or we are bound for hell.  I don't believe that.
    
    If I'm wrong in this thought, please tell me why you are pushing the
    envelope on confession.
    
    Nancy

| <<< Note 789.5 by TOLKIN::JBROWN "The just shall live by faith." >>>



| And how about an illness such as depression where, chemically speaking, you 
| are not responsible for your actions due to the chemical imbalance in your 
| brain?  

	Janet, if one killed another due to a chemical imbalance, do you
believe that they aren't responsible as well?


Glen

This doesn't have a thing to do with Catholicism; I don't know why you
brought that up.

/john

The basic question is:  is suicide a sin or not?

I'll start a separate topic to deal with the question of what the
consequences of sin are.

/john

>    No where in the bible does it say suicide is a sin.

Does anyone but Jay believe this?

I read "thou shalt not murder" as God clearly calling suicide a sin.

/john

	I guess it's a matter of interpretation John.

All right then, does anyone but Jay and Glen believe that the Bible doesn't
call suicide a sin?

Should we vote?  Suicide, sin or not?

/john

| <<< Note 789.16 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| All right then, does anyone but Jay and Glen believe that the Bible doesn't
| call suicide a sin?

	John.... I never said that I don't believe the Bible says that suicide
is sin. What I did say was it looks like it is a matter of interpretation. How
did you get how I felt out of that? 

| Should we vote?  Suicide, sin or not?

	The one who knows for sure is God. Apparently humans are not able to
decide accross the board if suicide is or isn't a sin. It's a matter of
interpretation.


Glen

I'm always *so* pleased to remember that the final judgement is done by 
Someone who *knows*, Someone who *cares* and not _people_!



Chele

<----amen!

   I think we sometimes look at sin as though its some type of black mark 
   on our being that can either be erased or covered over by "true" 
   repentence coupled with faith in the Messiah. This isn't necessarily
   a wrong view, but I wonder if it doesn't sometimes cause us to get into
   tangled, inaccurate ideas on judgement and redemption? I mean, it 
   appears that some sin is regarded as easier or more difficult than other
   sin to erase or completely cover over.
   
   Sin is to miss the mark. The mark or standard we are held up to is the
   perfect state of the righteousness and goodness of God. We simply do 
   not measure up. 

   Picture the perfect state as being like a perfect, absolutely smooth 
   sphere filled completely with golden liquid. Now picture us as spheres 
   with a rough, dented surface. Maybe you can't even see the surface imper-
   fections except under an electron microscope, but under the electron
   microscope our spere looks kind of like the macro-images of human skin
   seen magnified many millions of time. Yuck, not smooth at all! Now 
   picture air bubbles and pockets in the golden liguid so it doesn't 
   completely fill the sphere. Then add to your picture specks of dust and 
   particles of grit and dirt suspended in it, along with gunky oil floating 
   through it. That's the state of our being.

   Whether our own hand causes our death, someone else's hand causes our death,
   or old age, disease, or accident cause our death, we are not perfect and
   do not die having lived perfect lives. Whether we are homosexual, bisexual,
   heterosexual, bitter, angry, holding a grudge against someone, forgiving, 
   stingy, generous, single, married, divorced, remarried, happy, sad, 
   melancholy or whatever, our speres are not perfect and our golden 
   liquid is both tainted and partially missing. To argue about which bit of 
   corruption, which pollutant, which rough edge, bump, wobble, or imperfection
   is worse than another is silly because whatever the "severity" of the 
   problem, we are not perfect and we miss the mark or standard.

   God accepts us as perfect despite these blemishes, imperfections, and
   impurities because Yeshua (Jesus) who is perfect stands in our place. 
   Only God can filter our impurities out and smooth our spheres. Its not
   that we have these marks on us, its that these pollutants and imperfections
   are part of us. God has to alter our very composition, which He will do 
   because Yeshua bore our chastisement and now stands in our place of
   judgement.

   Yet, despite our impurities, we should strive to live the best lives we 
   can, to be obedient to God's instruction and guidence (Torah), humbling 
   our hearts so that we can understand more fully what God is teaching us 
   and what he wants. Humility allows for a better sound to noise ratio in 
   our learning because more of God's will and less of our own comes through 
   to our hearts and minds. The things we do can make a difference to the 
   state of the world, and to our resemblence of what God has designed us to 
   be, but these things will not make us perfect. Nor will a mistake in our 
   thoughts and actions make us non-redeemable by Yeshua, because He remains 
   perfect.

   So rather than arguing about levels or degrees of sin, let's put our faith
   and hope in Yeshua. Let's regret our mistakes and determine to do better, 
   but not worry about whether what we do makes us worse or better than the 
   other person because comparison is a moot point. No one is perfect. If we 
   know someone who did take their own life, all we can do is trust that 
   whatever has become or will become of them will be right in accordance 
   with the goodness, righteousness, and compassionate mercy of God. If we 
   know someone who may be suicidal, we should spend our time praying for them,
   getting them to some form of help, and encouraging them that God will take 
   care of them, their life is not futile, things can and will get better. 
   Lets give them a hope so they desire life and not death, rather than 
   worrying about what will become of them if they do attempt or are 
   successful at suicide. Of course suicide is sin because it misses the mark
   of perfection, but, again, no one is perfect. Thank God for the Messiah who
   is perfect for us, and by who has taken our chastisement upon Himself!

   Leslie

   PS. As an aside, on the Jewish calendar, we are now in the month of Elul,
       when we should be aware of the coming judgement of Adonai. This should 
       awake our hearts to repentence or teshuva, a turning back to God.

 ...and all God's people said..

AMEN

    Amen!!! :-)

    Amen to Nancys notn to Nancy's note
    
    :^D
    

    
    This hardly seems like a doctrinal issue that people should be 
    drawing up sides on.  But discussion is good.  Talk amongst 
    yourselves.  

    I'd say no, not for the act alone.

    thumbs out on a desert road 
    I am told leads to nowhere
    any shade is as good as the next
    if your shadow doesn't go there
    
    {bridge1}
    week 7: did you really assume
    I'd find some solace from
    the letter in your room?
    next life could you kindly refrain
    from throwing yourself at
    the mercy of a train?
    
    {chorus}
    silence all, nobody breathe
    how in the world could you just leave?
    you promised you would
    silence that evil with good
    hear me out, I have the floor
    I'll give you my tears,
    I'll listen more
    you promised you would
    overcome evil with good
    
    maybe this world is a
    barren place for a soul
    prone to get lost
    but heaven still hounds 
    from the smallest sounds
    to the cries of the storm-tossed
    
    {bridge2}
    week 9: I am writing in the sand
    any little clue that could
    help me understand
    every whispered secret,
    every muffled sigh
    every half-truth that
    was added to a lie
    
    {chorus2}
    silence all, nobody move
    I've got to know now
    what you hoped to prove
    you promised you would
    silence that evil with good
    shame feeds guilt, 
    guilt needs release
    you took it to God
    you made your peace
    and swore that you would
    overcome evil with good
    
    {bridge3}
    every old demon
    playing back the crime
    if they needed blood
    I'd have gladly given mine
    a child of the kingdom
    still an invalid
    forgive her please Father
    she don't know what she did
    
    {chorus3}
    silence all, now go to sleep
    the water's free, 
    the well is deep
    how can we return
    that which we never
    could earn?
    God, I long to see her face
    we haven't a hope
    beyond Your grace
    I know that You will
    overcome evil for good
    
    {cf. Romans 12:21, Ephesians 2:8-9}
    � Newsboys from the "Going Public" album on Star Song Records