Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Hi Pam,

    As it happens, several years ago I put together a Pesach
    Seder Haggadah (Passover Set Order (Ceremony) Book of Telling 
    is more or less how you might translate that) for believers 
    in Yeshua (Jesus).

    We've been using it ever since, and have given out copies to
    other groups, including recently, a group in Israel!  I'll
    mail you the postscript file to print out.
    
    Leslie

    Yeah!  That was fast!  Thanks a lot Leslie!
    
    Pam

    also see "Celebrate the Feasts!" by Martha Zimmerman on Bethany House
    Publishers.  It has family projects, outlines, recipes, just about
    everything for all the major Feasts of Israel.
    
To prepare for the Passover and celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread you can
go on a search for leaven.  Take a lighted candle, a feather, and a paper bag.
Go throughout the house and at night time, throw away leavened items (bread,
rolls, cake, etc.).  The candle represents the ministry of the Word of God
(Psalm 119:105,130).

Find some crumbs (strategically scattered around ahead of time) and gently sweep
them with the feather into the bag.  The feather represents how tenderly and
gently the Holy Spirit works in our lives, making us more like Jesus (John
14:8-14).

Children love to search for the leaven!  When the house is cleared of leaven
take the bag and burn it in your fireplace or on your barbecue grill.  Explain
that the leaven represents sin, the candle represents the light of God's Word in
the hand of the Holy Spirit, who reveals sin in our lives.  Jesus wants to
remove the sin from our lives.
    
    Mike

    Leslie,
    	can I ask you to place a pointer to the .ps file? Please, please,
    please?
         Thanks,
                me :*]

    Hi Hazza,

    I'd rather mail it because the system hawks watch for file with world
    read like hawks :-}, and come down like a ton of bricks when they find
    one.  Its 288 blocks in size.  Would you have a problem getting it via 
    mail?

    Leslie

    Also for those of you who requested it yesterday, my disk is back online,
    so you'll be seeing it your "mail" shortly.

Martha Zimmerman's book is okay - we have a copy, and I think many of you 
would find it very interesting and enlightening, but for Passover, I'd 
really recommend a book by Moshe & Ceil Rosen.  I'm not sure on the title, 
but I think its called something like "Christ in the Passover".

Leslie

    Leslie, I'd appreciate a pointer or email copy as well.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Well, I just printed it out and it came out great!  Just in time
    for me to read over it at lunch time!
    
    Thank you so much Leslie!!!
    
    Pam

You're welcome.

Leslie

    Leslie,
    
    	mail would be fine
    
    either BBQ:: or SNOFS1::WOODWARDC - thanks,
    
    						hazza :*]
    p.s. maybe someone else with less draconian people might like to hold
    this? - I'm waiting to see if I can aquire a workstation before I offer
    

	Leslie,

	Could I have a copy, too, Please ??

	Thanks!
	Karen

      No, problem Hazza & Karen.  Its on its way to you.

      Leslie

Leslie,

I've been wondering - could you mail me a copy too, please?

					thanks!
							Andrew

On its way to you Andrew .... enjoy.

Leslie

Thanks Leslie!

ICTHUS:: was telling me, as I heard its disc talking under my desk ;-)

						Andrew

    I finally got around to reading Leslie's Seder paper and I'm sure it
    will come in handy.  I have my Messianic Haggadahs on order.  My church
    was also selling the book (Christ in the Passover - Ceil & Moishe
    Rosen) you mentioned for $2 so I bought one yesterday.
    
    A couple of things I was wondering about though...  Does the young
    child ask all 4 questions then you answer all 4 or one at a time followed 
    by an answer?  
    
    The roast egg seems to be something that was added as an afterthought
    (smacks of paganism too).  Have you ever held/seen a Seder without one?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Mike,

    Can you purchase a copy of Ceil & Moishe Rosen's book for me?  I've 
    read it but don't have a copy.  I remember it as being excellant.
    I've still got the mezzuzah book to send to you, but have not made 
    it to the post office yet.  If you can send me that book, let me
    know what I would owe you for it & postage.

>    A couple of things I was wondering about though...  Does the young
>    child ask all 4 questions then you answer all 4 or one at a time followed 
>    by an answer?

    Ask all four together at one time.  I don't think they all get answered
    directly but the rest of the haggadah sort of indirectly answers them.  
    
>    The roast egg seems to be something that was added as an afterthought.
    
    I suppose you could have a seder without it.  It represents the temple
    sacrifice known as the chagigah.  Afred Edersheim's book, "The Temple:
    Its Practices and Ministry" (or something like that) talks a bit about
    the chagigah which is also no longer offered because the temple was
    destroyed.  (I just recently got this book & was up reading the sections
    on Passover this weekend when I couldn't sleep, but it was 4:00 AM so I'm
    afraid I don't remember very many details.)

    Leslie

    I'll pick one up for you if there are any left.
    
    Mike

By the way, from a calendar perspective, the way the holy days line up
this year is very exciting.  First of all, there is some speculation 
that the days of the week this year align with the dates for Pesach and
Yom habikurim (Firstfruits) the way they did the year that Yeshua was 
crucified.  (This is from my husband's research & calculations.)  Also, 
the first Pesach Seder this year is on the evening of what is Good Friday 
in the Christian church, and Yom haBikurim is on the same day as Resurrection 
(Easter) Sunday.  

You know the verse in 1 Corinthians (maybe in chapter 15) that talks about 
Yeshua being the firstfruits of the resurrection?  Well, it all ties into 
the firstfruits of the barley and wheat harvest which were presented in the 
temple as wave offerings to the Lord.  The firstfruits of the barley harvest 
were brought to the temple following the Passover sabbath, which is when Yeshua
was resurrected, while the firstfuits of the wheat harvest and other crops
was brought to the temple 50 days later on Shavuot (known in the Greek as 
Pentecost).  Edersheim, in his book on the temple, says that the firstfruits
of the barley harvest were publicly cut down just before dusk the evening 
before in a little ceremony, and that this was probably being done at the 
same that Joseph of Arimethea & others were taking Yeshua' body down and 
placing it in the tomb.

Anyhow, I don't know if it signifies anything, but I think its neat that the 
days are lined up like this, this year.

Leslie

    re: -1
    
    especially interesting if you're at a Seder with Jews present.  Might
    provide some interesting opportunities.
    
    btw - I was told the Rosen's started Jews for Jesus.
    
    Mike

    In light of recent discussions of the tribulation, I find the 2nd cup
    of wine in the Passover incredibly provocative.  This is the cup of
    God's Wrath, representing the 10 Plagues of Egypt.  You *never* drink
    from this cup!  This is the exact same cup during the Last Supper where
    Jesus said, "Father, if it be your will, permit this cup to pass from 
    me"  (my paraphrase).  
    
    Obviously we don't drink from this cup because Christ did it for us. 
    We are not destined to wrath.
    
    Mike

      Mmmmmm -- that's different from what I have heard.  

      What I have read and seen is that the second cup is the Cup of Blessing.
      As each of the plagues is mentioned a drop of wine is removed from the 
      glass because our blessing is not full while there is yet any pain, 
      suffering, or hardship in the world.  Sometimes the drop poured out 
      might go into anothe glass set out for that purpose, and it would not be
      drunk, but I've also been at Seders where people simply dipped their 
      pinkie in their wine and then shook off the drop that adhered onto a 
      plate.

      It is after this cup that the question is asked if we praise or
      bless God because of the plagues He brought upon Egypt and the answer
      is given that, no, it is because of the mercies he showed Israel that
      we praise Him because the Egyptians also belong to and are loved by
      God and God was saddened by what He had to do to them.
 
      When Yeshua prayed the "this cup might pass from Him" it was after the
      Passover meal in the garden of Gethsemane that He did so.  

      I am pretty sure that "drinking the cup" is a metephor used elsewhere in
      the Bible to indicate the destiny or circumstances set before one, but I 
      will have to some research to verify that.  In Psalm 23 its used
      positively - my cup runs over.
     
      Leslie

>      What I have read and seen is that the second cup is the Cup of Blessing.
>      As each of the plagues is mentioned a drop of wine is removed from the 
>      glass because our blessing is not full while there is yet any pain, 
>      suffering, or hardship in the world.  Sometimes the drop poured out 
>      might go into anothe glass set out for that purpose, and it would not be
>      drunk, but I've also been at Seders where people simply dipped their 
>      pinkie in their wine and then shook off the drop that adhered onto a 
>      plate.
    
    I realize this, but I was thinking metaphorically.  Regardless of its
    name, what it represents (God's Wrath - plagues) and the fact that we 
    don't drink from it says something to me.

>      It is after this cup that the question is asked if we praise or
>      bless God because of the plagues He brought upon Egypt and the answer
>      is given that, no, it is because of the mercies he showed Israel that
>      we praise Him because the Egyptians also belong to and are loved by
>      God and God was saddened by what He had to do to them.
    
    Right, which also applies to what will happen in the tribulation.  We
    will praise God for His mercy on us there as well.
 
>      When Yeshua prayed the "this cup might pass from Him" it was after the
>      Passover meal in the garden of Gethsemane that He did so.  
    
    I believe there's a definition connection here though.  Christ bore our
    sin and suffered since it was God's will for Him to drink of this cup.

>      I am pretty sure that "drinking the cup" is a metephor used elsewhere in
>      the Bible to indicate the destiny or circumstances set before one, but I 
>      will have to some research to verify that.  In Psalm 23 its used
>      positively - my cup runs over.
     
    I don't disagree with this, Leslie, but I think this is significant
    given the context of events.  I'll look into it more as well.
    
    Mike

>    I realize this, but I was thinking metaphorically.  Regardless of its
>    name, what it represents (God's Wrath - plagues) and the fact that we 
>    don't drink from it says something to me.

     But we do drink the cup of blessing during the pesach seder.  Its
     minus 10 drops of wine though.

     Leslie

    The way I understand it, there are 4 cups and the 2nd is only spilled
    (or dipping the pinky) and not drunk.
    
    Mike