| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 315.3 | | LEDDEV::CAMUSO | alphabits | Fri Nov 05 1993 08:56 | 11 |
|
Hi, Mark.
Superb advice.
As for the platypus, my wife says that God made it from all the
parts leftover from making the other animals %^).
Saluti,
Tony
|
| 315.4 | Is it that simple ? | GIDDAY::SETHI | Holland 2-England 0,Andrew wasn't there | Mon Nov 08 1993 01:36 | 10 |
| Hi Mark,
I was wondering with all that is going on in one's mind how can one
tell the difference between God's will and one's desire ? I can see
why you chose Adam and the naming of the animals BUT in todays world
the difference between right and wrong is not so clear at times.
Regards,
Sunil
|
| 315.5 | | CNTROL::JENNISON | John 3:16 - Your life depends on it! | Mon Nov 08 1993 11:08 | 10 |
|
Mark,
Not to be hit and run, but I do disagree with your suggestion
of using open doors/closed doors (or circumstances) as a means
of following/determining God's will.
I'll be back when I've got more time...
Karen
|
| 315.6 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Nov 08 1993 12:31 | 90 |
| .2 Sunil
> I was wondering with all that is going on in one's mind how can one
> tell the difference between God's will and one's desire ? I can see
> why you chose Adam and the naming of the animals BUT in todays world
> the difference between right and wrong is not so clear at times.
For starters, the point of .0 is that God's will is not always as
clear cut as right or wrong. In using the account from Genesis, it
would neither have been right nor wrong for Adam to name the animals
as he did. The choice was left to him.
I wrote somewhere else in this conference about determining God's will
and how to know whether something *is* _right_ or _wrong_.
First and foremost was what God said about it. If the Bible contradicts
your desire, there should be no wonder about whether what you're
contemplating is right or wrong.
I'll try and find the note and cross-post it here. (Assistance is welcome.)
.3> Karen
>
> Not to be hit and run, but I do disagree with your suggestion
> of using open doors/closed doors (or circumstances) as a means
> of following/determining God's will.
I suspect you mean that God is not the only one to "open doors."
This is true, but I hope you will have read that this is not the ONLY means
by which we determine God's will, because if it was, I would be no better
than a crap shoot. I said:
me> First, make sure your
me> relationship with God is current. Second, if He seems to be silent on a
me> matter about which you will be making a choice, declare an intent.
me> Third, be open and sensitive for the opening and shutting of doors as you
me> begin to act on your intent.
Step three is not in isolation of steps 1 and 2; especially step 1.
Those doors will be open or closed based on your relationship with God.
Also, remember that I am proposing that there are times/circumstances
where determining God's will is not the purpose of the choices that
are presented before us, but with the purpose of God seeing what we
will do with the choices.
Looking at the parable of the talents, what was the master's will regrading
them? We really don't know regarding the first two: the one with 10 turned
it into 20; the one with 5 turned it into 10.
But we do know something about the one with 1 talent who buried it. The
Master commended those that invested and doubled the *Master's currency*.
He rebuked the one who did not even put it in the bank to earn interest.
Earning interest would not have doubled the money, but it was a choice
available to the one with 1 talent that he did not make.
In other words, we aren't told how to do something, or what to do, and
some people agonize over what God's perfect will is. God created us in
his image; and we are creative beings.
One can choose to play the trombone, or flute and still be within God's
[perfect] will. Instead of agonizing about what God wants from me,
(1) be current with my relationship with God.
Let me camp there for a minute. Jesus said the greatest commandment was
to "love God with everything" and ALL the LAW and the PROPHETS hinged
on this one commandment! In other words, if you love God with everything,
you CANNOT be outside of His will.
Having this in the pocket, as it were, AND the Lord is silent about a choice
we have to make, it may be a choice He give to us. And our agonizing and
paralysis over not making a decision can be tantamount to burying our
talent. If our relationship is current, God will not allow us to unknowingly
go outside of His will. (For example, I doubt God would have approved if
Adam named one of the animals after God. And it never occurred to Adam because
he understood the relationship between God and himself.)
Clear right and wrong is not really the issue here. There are ways to
determine this.
But I believe that God's definition of morality is much more like a
huge area bounded by a fence enabling us to roam where we will within
those boundaries, instead of a rat's maze. Yes, He may have specific
orders for us ("Go, stay, do this"); but he may be telling us that
we have the opportunity to choose a way.
I'm sorry if my use of "doors" confused matters.
Mark
|
| 315.2 | See "quadralateral sources of authority" about discerning right from wrong | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Nov 08 1993 12:44 | 55 |
| <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
-< CHRISTIAN-V7 >-
================================================================================
Note 82.7 Truth or Consequences 7 of 28
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 48 lines 29-MAR-1993 13:51
-< Truth >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I spoke with my father recently, and we discussed Truth (with capital T)
and I'll try to put down some thoughts that came from that discussion.
First, there is a Truth that just is and innate. The founders of the
United States decalred such a belief by stating "We hold these truths
to be self-evident." For example, it is intrisically wrong to murder
someone. No law needs to be given for it to be known as a truth.
When Cain murdered Abel, he knew he had done wrong before it was declared
by writ or voice.
Also, the purpose of the law "was designed to silence all mankind under
the conviction that they have nothing to say against the charge of sin."
(See note 80.5) That is, the Truth of sin and righteousness existed
*before* the law and was NOT brought into being *with* the law.
John Wesley has a "quardalateral sources of authority" (and the scholars
in here can help me out) for determine what Truth is when it is in question.
1. The Word
2. Tradition
3. Reason
4. Experience
The trouble is that many of us want to zip on past 1, 2, and 3, and rely on
number 4. Nothing is Truth that contradicts the tenor of Scripture.
But Scripture is interpreted. Anyone who says we rely on the word of God
and the Word only has their interpretation of the Scripture. So these other
pieces come into play, remembering the hierarchy. An interpretation CANNOT
contradict the tenor of Scipture and be held as a truth.
"Tradition" is claimed by some, and should not simply mean "the unbroken
succession" of an orgainzation. The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic
church of Jesus Christ is not limited to an organization.
The church is One in Jesus, holy in that it belongs to God not men,
catholic in that it is worldwide; universal, and apostolic in that it
has not varied from what the disciples taught. (Friend Catholic: I hope
you can see that I am not tearing down your church by lifting up His Church.)
Reason is given to change with the debasement of humanity and only
more fleeting is personal experience. Yet, when they affirm the tradition
which affirms the Word, they then can be trusted, for none of these four
points of the quadralateral are sufficient alone, but taken together,
provide a mechanism by which we, as humans, can interpret the Truths
that pre-exist the law.
Mark
|
| 315.1 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Nov 10 1993 11:25 | 6 |
| Since the majority of 308 (the former home for this note) was ratholed,
I thought it easier to move my base note here and rename 308.
Have fun over there folks.
Mark Metcalfe
|
| 315.7 | Nice note Mark | SHIBA::SILVA | Memories..... | Wed Nov 10 1993 11:45 | 45 |
| | <<< Note 315.0 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>
| Genesis 2
| 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and
| every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call
| them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name
| thereof.
| 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to
| every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for
| him.
| God wanted to see what Adam would call the animals. He gave the prerogative
| of naming things to Adam.
I agree Mark that this is what this piece of Scripture is saying. I've
often wondered the reason for having Adam do this and the only one I could come
up with was while Adam was lonely, by naming the animals it may have helped him
become somewhat attatched and his loneliness would have passed.
| If it were us, we would have the tendency to present an animal and ask,
| "Now, what is Your will that I should name this one, Lord?" I want to be
| in Your perfect will on this.
Hmmm.... good point. Is this more if we were to find an animal that did
not already have a name or would this apply to when God wanted us to name the
animal? For *me*, the latter version wouldn't apply as if God wanted me to name
something I would take Him up on it as I would figure He had a reason. I would
ask though why He wanted me to name the animal.
| In this, what we really mean is that we have God to blame if trouble
| arises from a decision that we make "in His will." "Hey, I wasn't the
| one who wanted to go this direction; now look at the trouble we're in. I
| was just staying in your will."
I truly wish things like this would not happen. But because we are
human we are quick to put the blame somewhere, instead of the fact we may not
have done His will afterall or that maybe this is His will, for a reason we
don't yet understand.
Glen
|
| 315.8 | | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Wed Nov 10 1993 11:55 | 32 |
| I hope I'm not diverting the topic from it's intent. :-)
One thought I've often had regarding the naming of the animals (and I
think it does have to do with God's will for Adam)
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the lord god formed every beast of
the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam
to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every
living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air,
and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found
an help meet for him.
21 And the lord god caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he
slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh
instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the lord god had taken from man, made he a
woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, this is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my
flesh: she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of
man.
God "involved" Adam in the work of the garden as a part of his
fellowship with his Creator. As part of the work, God had an intent
for Adam. Adam had to consider every one of the animals, and not a one
was "the one" for Adam. God is often using the "circumstances" of our
service for Him as a means to further revealing something to us, and as
a preparation for what He has in the future. I believe that God wanted
Adam to realize the *necessity* for a "help meet", and then see how
God would provide what he needed. God's desire for man has always been
for man to live in complete dependence on Him. I believe God was
teaching Adam this lesson in a very practical and meaningful way.
Mark L.
|
| 315.9 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Nov 10 1993 12:08 | 23 |
| .8> Markel
> God "involved" Adam
An excellent observation of God's will/our will relationship.
God created creative beings, not automotons.
Markel's observations cause me to think of a child learning rudimentary
mathematics in "preparation for what He has in the future."
> God's desire for man has always been
> for man to live in complete dependence on Him. I believe God was
> teaching Adam this lesson in a very practical and meaningful way.
It is extremely interesting (to me) how this is played out in the paradox
of "complete dependence" and "free will" which I believe co-exist in a
paradoxical tension. God knows that we need to realize on our own (free
will) that we completely depend on Him for what we need and so "involves"
us in an exercise of our free will to show us that we are complete dependent
on God to provide. (I love it!)
Thanks, Mark!
Mark
|
| 315.10 | | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Wed Nov 10 1993 12:10 | 5 |
| A lesson from it: never consider anything God gives you to do to be
unimportant or mundane. God only knows what the real opportunity and
lessons to be learned are.
Mark L.
|
| 315.11 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Nov 10 1993 12:20 | 18 |
| A further lesson, and the original point of .0 is that when we are in
a living relationship with God, the choices that we make will be within
God's will whenever He leaves the choice to us. It sounds redundant to
say, but the reason we know our choice will be in God's will is because
we are in God's will to make the choice.
In other words, it was God's will for Adam to be creative in naming the
animals. It was in God's will for Adam to make the choice, and Adam could
do so because his relationship to God and fellowship to God was still pure.
If our relationship is pure, and we have opportunities presented to us,
God will guide us, or God will allow us to be creative and choose. That's
why it is so important to maintain a daily and vibrant relationship with
God so that when we're faced with choices, we will choose within God's will.
And, as Markel said, God may be revealing something to us through our own
creative choices (which are within His will and His will that we do).
Mark
|
| 315.12 | "Love God, and do as you please" | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Wed Nov 10 1993 12:28 | 7 |
| "Love God and do as you please." This is a phrase a friend (many would
place him in a category as a "minister") of mine has said for years.
At first, it sounds quite contradictory. But on deeper examination,
and in conjuntion with what is being said in this topic, it is quite
sound advice.
Mark L.
|
| 315.13 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Nov 10 1993 12:30 | 3 |
| Re: 12 "Love God, and do as you please."
If I may wax a bit ecumenical, Markel - BINGO!
|
| 315.14 | A recent Q&A from Dobson on God's Will | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Fri Nov 12 1993 09:39 | 61 |
| From Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family Bulletin; a church bulletin
insert you may also get at your church.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. Whenever I want to know the will of God in a particular matter, I wait
for Him to make me feel positive or negative about it. Do you think that
is an effective method of discerning the "mind of God"?
A. Determining the will of God by means of feelings or impressions
always reminds me of the day I returned home from graduation ceremonies
many years ago. I thanked God for His obvious blessing on my life, and I
asked Him to use me in any way He chose. The presence of the Lord seemed
very near.
Suddenly, I was seized by a strong impression: "You are going to lose
someone very close to you within the next 12 months. A member of your
family will die, but when it happens, don't be dismayed. Just continue
trusting and depending on Me."
Since I had not been thinking about death or anything that would have
explained the suddenness of this premonition, I was alarmed. My heart
thumped as I contemplated who might die and in what manner.
Nevertheless, when I reached my home that night, I told no one about the
experience.
Weeks, then months passed without tragedy or human loss. Finally, the
anniversary of my morbid impression came and went without consequence.
The impression was proved invalid.
Through my subsequent counseling experience and professional
responsibilities, I have learned that my phony impression was not unique.
Similar experiences are common, particularly among those who have not
adjusted well to the challenge of living.
For example, a 30-year old wife and mother came to me for treatment of
persistent anxiety and depression. She related her history, describing
an episode that occurred in church when she was 16 years old. Toward the
end of the sermon, she "heard" this alarming message from God. "Jeanie,
I want you to die so that others will come to Me."
Jeanie was absolutely terrified. She felt as though she stood on the
gallows with the hangman's noose dangling above her head. In her panic,
she jumped from her seat and fled through the doors of the building,
sobbing as she ran. Jeanie felt she would commit a sin if she revealed
her impression to anyone, so she kept it to herself. For many years she
awaited the execution of this divine sentence, wondering when the final
moment would arrive. Nevertheless, she appeared to be in excellent
health 14 years later.
From these examples, and dozens more, I have come to regard the
interpretation of impressions as risky business, at best.
Q. Are you saying that God does not speak directly to the heart - that
all impressions are false and unreliable?
A. Certainly not. It is the express purpose of the Holy Spirit to deal
with human beings in a most personal and intimate way, convicting,
directing, and influencing. However, some people seem to find it very
difficult to distinguish the voice of God from other sounds within.
|
| 315.16 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Fri Nov 12 1993 15:28 | 27 |
| > There are several problems with this interview:
The problems exist in your perception of the information, and not with
the information. I have a different opinion on the matter.
> a.) The person asked about a 'feeling', but Dobson responded
> along the lines of 'voices'.
Re-read it. Dobson had an "impression," and the person he counselled
"heard a message". Impression, feeling, voice of God, and "other sounds
within" are all part of the same message Dobson is giving in relating
to these questions..
> b.) Dobson identified the fact that these 'voices' were definitely
> wrong, and caused problems, but he never identified
> where they came from.
He doesn't have to. And might be wrong in doing so. All voices on
the inside are not from one side or another, but from oneself; random
thoughts.
> c.) This person never really got an answer to his question.
I found it very well articulated. It is regrettable (for you) that
you did not.
Mark
|
| 315.18 | | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Fri Nov 12 1993 15:40 | 25 |
| A quick summary:
> Q. Whenever I want to know the will of God in a particular matter, I wait
> for Him to make me feel positive or negative about it. Do you think that
> is an effective method of discerning the "mind of God"?
>
> A. Determining the will of God by means of feelings or impressions
The question asked if relying on feelings was a good idea. The first
line of the answer indicates that is exactly what Dr. Dobson is
addressing. He begins with a personal example and adds others.
> From these examples, and dozens more, I have come to regard the
> interpretation of impressions as risky business, at best.
The bottom line of his answer is that relying on "impressions" (another
word for feelings) as a means of determining God's will is probably a
dangerous thing to do. It think it was a very clear answer, with a
good explanation of *why* he gives that answer.
Personally, I would have liked to have seen things taken a little
further, i.e., "if not by feelings, then how?" However, that was not
the intent of the answer (nor the focus of the question).
Mark L.
|
| 315.19 | | POWDML::SMCCONNELL | Next year, in JERUSALEM! | Fri Nov 12 1993 15:46 | 22 |
| There was a book I was reading on marriage among believers, and I
remember the author speaking about a man (a believer mind you) who
"felt" G-d was telling him that he had a special ministry to the
"lonely women" in his neighborhood. His "ministry" was to sleep around
with all these women (singles, divorcees, widows).
You can be tempted by the structure of the world system in which you
live, by the old patterns of your flesh, or by the devil (or a
combination thereof). You can *feel* like G-d is telling you something
because it *feels* like revelation. Hey - it may even *BE*
revelation. But from where does it come?
This believer could easily have checked this revelation against the
Word and seen that its source was not the Holy One.
For starters, you can know G-d's will by knowing His Word and
continually turning there when you "feel" like He's telling you to do
something.
Not all revelation is from Him....
Steve
|
| 315.23 | | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Fri Nov 12 1993 16:36 | 18 |
| Re: .21
> The first question that should be asked is ....
I think the question asked in the article was a very important one.
(And I liked the answer better.)
Above following *any* feelings, I would recommend:
1) Praying about a matter
2) Having God speak to you through His word
3) Praying about a matter
4) Seeking godly counsel
5) Praying about a matter
6) Honestly considering if you have peace about the proposed decision.
This is probably the "closest" to "feelings" that I would recommend.
If there is not peace, something isn't right.
Mark L.
|
| 315.25 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready? | Fri Nov 12 1993 16:51 | 29 |
|
A couple of weeks ago we had a banquet at the church for people who had
been a part of, or were thinking about being a part of an evangelism program
we have undertaken. On the morning of said banquet, I felt an urge to call
a friend of mine from the church (who is blind, which only matters in this case
as he cannot drive) to see if he wanted to go. There was a question as to
whether or not there was room (reservations were needed) and I told myself
that because of that I wouldn't call him. As the day wore on, the urge to
call him became more intense, as if the Lord was grabbing me and saying
"Jim, call Ron!!)..So, first I picked up the phone to call the church to
leave a message for the pastor to see if there would be room. At 2PM on
a Saturday, the last person in the world I expected to answer the phone
was the pastor, but sure enough he answered. yes, there is room he said,
bring him along! OK..so I call Ron..he says "I've been thinking all day
about going, but I didn't think there'd be room!" Was it the Lord telling
me to call Ron? I certainly think so.
On another occasion, I had share the Lord with a friend one day, and the
following evening felt an "urge" to call her. So I did...she wasn't home.
The first instance in this case, was, I believe, the Lord. The second, I believe
was simple emotion..how does one learn to tell the difference? I'm not sure,
but I am learning. Perhaps one day I'll be able to explain it :-/
Jim
|
| 315.28 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready? | Sat Nov 13 1993 21:11 | 16 |
|
Forgive me for responding for Mr. Metcalfe, however, I believe, Mr. Griffis
if you were to read .11 in this string you may begin to get an understanding
that "Love God and do as you please" is not espousing a do whatever you
want type of philosophy. The point being, IF you love God and IF you are
serving Him in obedience, then you will NOT be sinning that grace may
abound, your every action will be in the will of God.
Jim
|
| 315.29 | next reply - a study turned paper | DYPSS1::DYSERT | Barry - Custom Software Development | Sun Nov 14 1993 23:16 | 7 |
| The next reply comprises a paper I wrote a few years ago that goes into
some Scriptural detail wrt God's will. I apologize for the special
characters you see if you read it on the screen. (The output is from
Runoff.) I suggest that you extract and print this if you're interested
in reading it. It's over 400 lines.
BD�
|
| 315.30 | Bible study on God's will | DYPSS1::DYSERT | Barry - Custom Software Development | Sun Nov 14 1993 23:16 | 484 |
|
_______________
The Will of God
The purpose of this study is to adequately define "the
will of God", ascertain whether or not it is knowable by man,
and if so, how one can know it.
The Scripture indicates that there are two basic
categories of God's will. Indeed, theologians have even named
these two categories. The first category, the "decretive"
will, refers to that sovereign plan of God that will come
about because of His omnipotence. The Bible refers to God's
decretive will in Psa. 33:11, Isa. 46:10, Rom. 9:19, et al.
Two illustrations of this category are seen in Jonah and
Jesus, although dozens more could be presented with little
effort.
It was God's decretive will that Jonah go to Ninevah
(Jon. 1:1-2). Jonah refused to go and in fact set sail to
escape the Lord's command. God could have sent another
prophet, as He sent various prophets to places throughout
history, but for some reason He apparently wanted Jonah to go
- and He caused him to go despite Jonah's unwillingness.
I believe that Jesus' sacrifice of Himself was also an
illustration of God's decretive will. It apparently pained
these two Persons of the Trinity to be "separated" as they
were (Matt. 27:46), but His death and resurrection were
required for man's salvation (Heb. 9:15-28) - and nothing
Page 2
could stop the plan from unfolding (Jn. 7:6; 8:59; 10:35-39).
The second category of God's will is termed His
"preceptive" will. This term refers to what God wants to have
happen but will not force to occur. An illustration of this
category can be seen in Jesus' lament of Jerusalem as recorded
in Luke 13:34.
A second, and perhaps the most sweeping, illustration of
God's preceptive will is seen in the fact that despite God's
love for man and His desire that all would come to a saving
knowledge of Him (2 Pet. 3:9), not all will do so. This is
seen in Matt. 7:21.
The verse just cited also underscores the importance of
knowing God's will. Obviously, knowing God's decretive will
need not be as high a priority as knowing His preceptive will
since the former will come to pass regardless of our knowledge
or ignorance of it. It is His preceptive will, therefore,
that demands our attention with great urgency.
Scripture indicates that God's will can be known
(Eph. 5:17). In fact, the inspired apostle even commands that
the body of believers in Ephesus understand God's will. The
command is no less important to the modern Church than it was
in the first century, because anyone who claims the name of
Christ is declaring their desire to do His will. Then, not
many verses beyond verse 17, we read Paul's second command
regarding God's will - that is, to do it (Eph. 6:6).
Page 3
By employing a phrase concordance I did an exhaustive
search, looking up all verses containing phrases such as
"God's will", "Lord's will", "the will of God", and "the will
of the Lord". The results of this search comprise what I
believe is the sum total of the Biblical definition of the
preceptive will of God.
The Biblical search reveals six factors that constitute
God's will. A concise listing of these factors is:
1. Come to a saving faith in God (1 Tim. 2:3-4; 2 Pet. 3:9).
2. Once saved, the believer is to be filled with the Holy
Spirit (Eph. 5:17-18).
3. Through the power of the indwelling Spirit, live a
sanctified life (1 Thes. 4:3).
4. Be submissive to authority (Eph. 6:5-6; 1 Pet. 2:13-15).
5. Be willing to suffer for the Lord's sake (1 Pet. 3:17;
4:19).
6. Give thanks (1 Thes. 5:18).
Although I believe that living one's life according to
these six factors constitutes living the will of God, I also
feel that more depth must be given in the understanding of
them. In my judgment, factors 2 and 3, when extended to their
ultimate end, imply living a perfect life. In practice, this
means the fulfillment of Jesus' directive recorded in
Matt. 5:48.
Living the will of God, then, naturally includes living
within the precepts He has provided through His Word. After
all, performing an action contrary to God's revealed
Page 4
directives would be sin and obviously not within His will.
Therefore, the question is reduced to living God's will even
when there is no direct Scripture doctrine to use as a guide.
I studied this avenue doing word studies on words that
might be suggestive of God's will. The first "near synonym"
that occurred to me is found in Prov. 3:5-6, where the promise
______
is that God will direct the believer's path. Study of
"direct" (Hebrew YASHAR) reveals that it speaks of preparing a
way, i.e. ensuring that a path is free from obstacles. The
connotation is one of God providentially - perhaps secretly -
making sure that the future events of our lives don't cause us
to stumble in our efforts to live a sanctified life. It is
also noteworthy that this same word is used as a part of man's
work to God (Isa. 40:3).
The next near synonym I looked at is "lead", as in
Isa. 48:17. This is the Hebrew work DARAK and is used
metaphorically to mean setting one's foot on a given
territory. Verse 18 indicates that God leads His people as
they follows His commandments. This sentiment is also
expressed in Psa. 119:35.
Another Hebrew word, NACHAH, is also translated "lead".
This word is seen in Psa. 139:10, is translated "guide" in
Psa. 73:24, and is the same word used in Exo. 13:21, where God
leads the children of Israel by the pillar of fire.
Prov. 6:20-22 indicates that this leading too comes from
following God's word.
Page 5
In addition to the word studies, some effort was spent
considering the character of God and how that might relate to
our knowing His will. The oft-quoted passage in
Matt. 10:30-31 provides a good indication of how closely God
was watching the 12 apostles. As Jesus was commissioning them
to go out, He reassured them of God's care. In Psalm 139
David is even more direct at revealing how God knows
absolutely everything about man.
Such knowledge naturally implies caring, and as a father
myself I suspect that no stronger analogy could be drawn to
show God's care for us than that of a father's care for his
children. After considering the Fatherhood of God, and
merging with it my personal observations, I've come to the
conclusion that fatherhood, and therefore caring, involves
general guidance, discipline, and training more so than
specific directions for the many crossroads of life.
God's discipline and mercy are revealed in passages like
2 Sam. 7:14-16. His care is seen in Psa. 68:5. He is shown
as drawing Israel to Himself in Hos. 11:4, and as a Giver of
gifts in Matt. 7:11. Interestingly, in reading these
passages, and several others that show God's fatherly
character, I noticed that any mention of His providing
specific direction is conspicuously absent.
Upon reflecting upon my own feelings as a father, though,
I realize this is the norm and not the exception. My goal as
a father is to train my children with solid foundations so
Page 6
that over time they will be able to make many decisions that I
can't even imagine - and make them based upon a set of sound,
basic principles. As they learn the basic principles they
become more capable of self-discipline.
When the children were very young, not only did I choose
their clothes, but I dressed them as well. Not only did I
select what food they would eat, but I actually fed it to
them. As they get older, however, I need provide less
specific instruction. I don't have to tell them which pair of
blue socks to wear, for example, only that they pick a pair to
match their pants.
I think the same is true with our Heavenly Father. He
has presented His sound, basic principles through the Bible.
As we learn them, and learn more of Him through them, we
become more self-disciplined and don't require that God tell
us our every move.
I will begin to summarize my position by discussing a
very interesting passage. Romans 12:1-2 exhorts the believer
to "prove" the "perfect" will of God. The word translated
"prove" is the Greek work DOKIMAZO. This word is used in
various passages (2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 6:4; 2 Tim. 3:10) and
carries the idea of testing something against a standard, with
the presumption that the thing being tested will meet the
standard.
Page 7
The word translated "perfect" is the Greek word TELEIOS.
It is used to describe God (Matt. 5:48) and the ultimate
attainment of glorification (1 Cor. 13:10). James (1:4)
pointedly associates the term with "completeness, lacking
nothing". When seen in this light, the interpretation I
advance for Rom. 12:1-2 is that the "perfect will of God" is a
plan completely revealed, lacking nothing. We test this will
against a standard to verify that it will meet the standard.
Jesus' own words as recorded in Jn. 7:17 clearly state that
knowing God's will is tantamount to knowing the Biblical
doctrine that Jesus was teaching.
As a result of the various analyses discussed in the
previous pages, I am led to conclude that God's will for man
is virtually completely presented in Scripture. Despite my
searching, I find no indication that there is anything
regarding God's will that isn't already in the Bible. Yes,
there are many cases where God supernaturally reveals
specifics to His people (Moses, Jonah, Saul, Abraham, et al.),
but the fact is that on these relatively rare occasions where
______
God had something specific for someone specific, He always
revealed Himself to them in an unmistakable, supernatural way.
The Bible indicates that God has dealt with man
differently over time. The passage in Heb. 1:1-2 states that
God used to speak to His people through His prophets, but that
now He speaks through His Son. With the completion of the New
Testament, the inspired record of His Son has been
established. Because of this, I think it is not the least bit
Page 8
coincidental that the phrase search that was discussed at the
beginning of this paper did not uncover any passages from the
Old Testament! God was making His will known dynamically
through His prophets. Now, however, this is not the case, and
we do have the completed text to use as our guide.
The next point is that, outside of supernatural
communication, we could never be certain that any
extra-Biblical understanding is indeed the result of the
Lord's direction. No less men that Job found themselves "full
of confusion" (Job 10:15). The apostles too were careful to
qualify their plans inasmuch as they may not be as the Lord
would have them (Acts 16:6-10; 1 Cor. 4:19; James 4:15). Not
only that, but these same apostles give no mention of trying
to actually discover what the Lord would have them do apart
from the general direction already given.
Given that godly men of such stature found themselves in
such a state it is no wonder that we cannot trust what we
_____
subjectively think is His leading. The Bible contains many
warnings regarding the heart of man (Prov. 19:21; Jer. 17:9),
and if God even did reveal His will beyond what He has
currently done it's quite likely that we would not be able to
comprehend it (Isa. 55:8).
____
Knowing the will of God is equivalent to knowing the Word
of God. Short of a miraculous manifestation for a specific
directive, the believer is within God's will so long as the
six factors are adhered to and there is no violation of
Page 9
Scripture. Decisions surrounding job opportunities, school
selection, house buying, etc., can safely be based upon
Biblical doctrine as God grants us wisdom (James 1:5) to apply
it.
Barry Dysert
March 25, 1989
|
| 315.31 | Why does Romans 3:8 come to mind? | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Mon Nov 15 1993 10:26 | 43 |
| Greg,
Did you ever consider the possibility that *you* might have made a
mistake? Once again, look at what was being dicussed in this note:
From 315.11 (Mark M)
>A further lesson, and the original point of .0 is that when we are in
>a living relationship with God, the choices that we make will be within
>God's will whenever He leaves the choice to us. It sounds redundant to
>say, but the reason we know our choice will be in God's will is because
>we are in God's will to make the choice.
[....]
>If our relationship is pure, and we have opportunities presented to us,
>God will guide us, or God will allow us to be creative and choose. That's
>why it is so important to maintain a daily and vibrant relationship with
>God so that when we're faced with choices, we will choose within God's will.
and From 315.12 (Mark L.)
> "Love God and do as you please." This is a phrase a friend (many would
> place him in a category as a "minister") of mine has said for years.
> At first, it sounds quite contradictory. But on deeper examination,
> and in conjuntion with what is being said in this topic, it is quite
> sound advice.
OK, Greg, let's take it *real* carefully. The discussion was that
living, pure relationship with God, where our choices *will* be guided
by God, not by our sinful past. *IN THAT CONTEXT* I related the phrase
"Love God and do as you please", *even with the caveat* that at first
the phrase sounds contradictory, and that it needed to be considered in
conjunction of what was being said in this topic.
SET MODE/TONGUE_IN_CHEEK
Greg,I'm honored that you have elevated a saying of mine (even though I
said it wasn't mine) to be considered a philosophy. I've never
considered myself to be a philosopher, but maybe you have identified a
gift of mine. Of course, the one that I was quoting was just a few
hours short of a Phd in philosophy, when the Lord showed him that He
didn't want it.
Mark L.
|
| 315.32 | | DECLNE::YACKEL | and if not... | Mon Nov 15 1993 11:22 | 8 |
|
ICor6:12 Everything is permissible for me, but not beneficial.....
10:23 Everything is permissible, but not everything is
beneficial......
Yak
|
| 315.33 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Nov 15 1993 12:20 | 55 |
| .25 Jim
> On another occasion, I had share the Lord with a friend one day, and the
> following evening felt an "urge" to call her. So I did...she wasn't home.
>
> The first instance in this case, was, I believe, the Lord. The second, I believe
> was simple emotion..how does one learn to tell the difference? I'm not sure,
> but I am learning. Perhaps one day I'll be able to explain it :-/
The second could have bene the Lord, too. (could have been.)
My wife and I were talking about God's will last night. We've moved
several times in our marriage, and most of the time we saw God's leading
in retrospect. On a few honored occasions, we saw His leading unfold
before us.
In considering future moves ("ready to go, ready to stay, ready to do His will")
I asked "what if one feels led, but can't say why, and after years of living
in a home, no clear "happenings" occur to confirm that God led us somewhere
for a purpose.
She responded that we don't know that God's will is to come away from a
place so that events don't occur in that place; God's will extends beyond
just us, and our presence or absence affects occurrences in the lives of
others as well as ourselves.
My dear wife struck a chord in that when we are agonizing over what God's
will is for us, wanting to know the why as much as the what, God's will for
us may actually be for the benefit of others.
Secondly, and more to Jim's point, even though your friend wasn't home,
you need to know the difference between saying you're willing to obey the
voice of the Lord, and being willing to obey. A lady in my church asked
me to join a specific ministry. It didn't strike me as something I'd
*like* to do, but I told her I would pray about it.
And I did. I wrestled over my statements that I am willing to obey God
no matter what, and actually putting feet to my words. By the time the
next Sunday rolled around, I had prayed through and determined to say
"yes" and trust the Lord to provide where I lacked. I went to this lady,
and told her. She told me (for whatever reason) that a change in situation
had altered the need; I was not to join this ministry. Wasted effort?
Not in God's will? Hardly. I, myself, would not know whether my words
of willingness could meet the test of an assignment from God, unless my
words were put to the test.
So, even though the phone was not answered, Jim, you may indeed have been used
to strengthen your commitment and attune your ear to His voice.
And one last thing, regarding putting you somewhere where it doesn't *seem*
like God has a big plan for you: God NEVER wastes a consecrated life.
Trust God. And wait upon Him.
Mark
|
| 315.34 | "Love God and do as you please" (see Psa. 37:4) | DYPSS1::DYSERT | Barry - Custom Software Development | Mon Nov 15 1993 12:33 | 15 |
| Re "Love God and do as you please"...
This is Scriptural when understood properly. (Apologies for butting in
again, but there seems to be a lack of Scripture in this topic.)
Psalm 37:4 tells us to "Delight yourself also in the Lord, and He shall
give you the desires of your heart." It's not a magic charm that God
will give you whatever you want, but rather as you align your will with
His (i.e. delight yourself in the Lord), your wants are changed to
match His. You therefore will want what He wants so you'll get it!
So, if we love God, we can do as we please because what we do will be
what He pleases as well.
BD�
|
| 315.35 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready? | Mon Nov 15 1993 12:34 | 35 |
| RE: <<< Note 315.33 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>
.So, even though the phone was not answered, Jim, you may indeed have been used
.to strengthen your commitment and attune your ear to His voice.
Interestingly, I learned a BIG lesson yesterday, one that had me in tears
and on my knees at the end of yesterday's service. A few weeks ago, I felt
an urge to send some folks from my church (who are off in Ohio in Bible
college) some money. In retrospect, the urging was similar to that which
I described with regard to my friend Ron. It was a clear message, that these
folks needed some money. Did I send it? No. Why? I'm ashamed to say why.
Yesterday at the end of the service, the Pastor announced that we would be
taking a love offering at Sunday night's service for this same couple who
are in a financial jam. I heard that and I practically froze where I was
standing. The Lord had spoken to *me* and I did not respond. I know He
has forgiven me. I pray that the next time He calls on me, I *hear* him,
and respond.
.And one last thing, regarding putting you somewhere where it doesn't *seem*
.like God has a big plan for you: God NEVER wastes a consecrated life.
.Trust God. And wait upon Him.
AMEN!!!
Jim
|
| 315.36 | | CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Mon Nov 15 1993 12:36 | 11 |
| Thanks, Barry. I had thought about that Scripture with regard to this
topic, but never entered it.
Also, consider what it means to "love God" according to the Scripture:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Do that, and do as you (and God) please.
Mark L.
|
| 315.37 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Nov 15 1993 12:49 | 15 |
| My Pastor speaks often on the Will of God for our lives and he always
injects little words of wisdoms... here's two from a recent sermon..
which I placed one in here not too long ago.
"Obedience always knows the will of God"
"God has given us plenty of commandments in the Bible for our lives,
things that we *KNOW* are God's will, such as being a carrier of the
Gospel. If we wish God to impart his perfect will for us, we must OBEY
Him first with what we already *know* [as written in the Bible].
Pastor Jack Trieber
North Valley Baptist Church
Santa Clara, Ca
|
| 315.38 | | CNTROL::JENNISON | John 3:16 - Your life depends on it! | Wed Nov 17 1993 10:15 | 17 |
|
Nothing much to add to this topic right now (actually, haven't
got the time!), but I wanted to share this much.
Three weeks ago, our Marriage Ministries class was on the topic
of Agreement. We studied quite a bit about seeking God's will.
Ever since that class, every sermon, and most discussions with
Christians that I've been a part of have continued to cover
God's will. Also, the topic of obedience, especially in relation
to both hearing and acting on God's will has also been heavily
evident. Even this morning's devotion was on the topic of obedience
and God's will.
I don't know what God's preparing me for, but I'm praying that
I'm ready and able...
Karen
|