Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Jeff,
         there are special rewards in heaven for any husband who allows 
    his mother-in-law to come live in his house.;)


    Just joking ! I can see my my mother-in-law, who I love and get along great
    with, coming to live with us someday. 

    Jim

    You know its a very interesting question that you raise Jeff.  My
    Pastor has actually done a series of lessons on Church/Family
    obligation to care for each other.
    
    I don't recall the scriptures, but the message which stuck in my mind
    is this.
    
    The family is always held responsible for the care and needs of its
    family members, meaning parents, in-laws, etc.  
    
    The church is declared to be responsible for its widows, those without
    family to care for them.
    
    We live in a society today where the family has been broken so badly
    through sin, that many older people live alone, are shut-ins, and are
    rarely visited, though they have children alive and well within their
    vicinity.
    
    We are a selfish society... depending on Social Security to meet the
    needs of our parents.  I have often wondered why, when I visit the
    "Home" next to my church, where are the families of many of the folks
    in there that do not require 24 hour care.  
    
    Many speculate that the parent may have been abusive towards their
    children or a rift has separated the two... I don't know, but I can't
    imagine the problem being *all* abusive parents, tho' a good percentage
    probably is.
    
    I'm rambling...  
    
    In my family, my mother was very neglectful, abandoned us, and at some
    points verbally abusive.  She had a temper in which she would fling
    things at us when we intruded into her time.  Of my siblings [older
    sister, younger brother], I am the only one who will take care of my
    mother as she ages.  My sister and brother have both said, NO WAY!
    
    They hold grudges, they are bitter and angry at our mother.  I have had
    been angry and hateful towards my mom too.  But God convicted my heart
    that forgiveness goes much further in my mother's life, then bitterness
    towards her does.
    
    Why did I spit this all out??? I dunno... maybe someone can identify
    with what I'm writing, or maybe its just my curvelinear view.
    
    Sigh,
    [is this what is commonly referred to as
     a mind dump?]
    
    ;-)
    Nancy

	Jeff,

	We'd do much the same if need be.

	My sister-in-law's friend has a mother with MS.  When the friend's
	father died last fall, she decided to quit her job, sell her home,
	and move with her husband into her mother's home to care for her.

	Jamie and I thought this was wonderful, and fully believed God
	would honor their unselfish decision.

	We were very close to alone in our beliefs, and apparently
	enough people voiced their opinion (you're so young, you'd be giving
	up so much, you love your house) to persuade them away from their
	decision.  The family hired a nurse for the mother.

	Karen

>    [is this what is commonly referred to as a mind dump?]

Yup!  :-)

    tanks...  @%-}
    
    

    
    To take one's parents into a nursing home, I guess (in my opinion)
    that it could be a cultural thing, or perhaps they way/place one
    was raised. I, for one, would never think of putting my parents or 
    in-laws in a nursing home, as long as I'm healthy and can take care 
    of them.
    
    My .02 cents
    Josie 

    A different perspective.....
    
    Both of my parents have been through this - my mother with
    her mother and my father with his father .
    
    To make a long story short:  My mother is one of 6 children.
    For 25 years, after her father died, my mother "took" the 
    responsibility of making sure everything was ok with my grandmother.
    You see, she never worked outside the home - she had a very
    sheltered life.  When her husband died, (she was in her mid-forties), 
    she didn't even know how to pay the bills.  She never got a driver's 
    license.  Obviously, she needed some help getting her life together - 
    so my mother helped her because her 5 brothers and sisters were either 
    unable or unwilling to help.  As she got older, grandma started having 
    some problems: couldn't remember things, forgetting to do routine things
    (personal care) for herself.  We thought this was the beginning of
    senility.  After many years of medical/psychological tests, she 
    was diagnosed with Alzheimers Disease.  The unpleasant task of
    "what-do-we-do-with-Mom" fell to my mother.  Her brothers and sisters
    did not want her to go into a nursing home, nor did they want to have
    her live with them - they wanted my family to take her in.  This was
    not possible:  Alzheimer's patients need 24-hour care.  They are like
    children; you never know what they might (or might not) do next.
    My mother had to work; it wasn't an option.  My grandmother went to
    live in nursing home - she died 5 years ago.
    
    My grandfather (paternal) had a stroke about 12 years ago.  He is 
    paralyzed on his left side.  My grandmother, who is still living,
    could not care for him at home - due to her age.  He has been living
    in a nursing home for several years.
    
    Now, I know if circumstances were different, these stories would
    probably have a happier ending.  I can't imagine how hard it is
    to have to make a decision like this, and I pray I never find out.
    My husband and I have resolved, if at all possible, that we will take
    in our parents, any time it is necessary.
        
    
    Karen
    

    
    Last two:
    
    It certainly is a "cultural thing".  America's culture today says to
    place parents in a nursing home when they can't take care of
    themselves.  My Christian conviction is that children should care for
    their parents as long as it is possible.  This is in opposition to
    culture as is almost all Biblical belief today.
    
    Caring for your parents is a specific area where you can witness to
    others about the differences in the Christian's life.  Also, the
    struggle to deal with these issues will face many folks and this is
    where Christians can make a difference and an entrance into other's
    lives - by their experience, example and decisions based upon the
    Bible.
    
    What is important to understand is that making decisions about parents
    who are becoming dependent or will become dependent someday (as most
    all will) is a very emotional thing and can be a serious issue in your
    marriage and in life with consequences.  I highly recommend that even
    if you don't think that this is an issue for you right now that you
    begin to talk about it with your Christian friends and your spouse and
    children.  Time passes quickly and illness or dependence may strike
    suddenly and you will be faced with difficult decisions.  Now is a good
    time to begin to address this in your lives so you can be prepared to
    some extent.
    
    jef

>       <<< Note 87.4 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

>>    [is this what is commonly referred to as a mind dump?]

>Yup!  :-)


Sounded more like a "head crash" to me. :^)

Sandy

Thanks, Jeff....  your testimony is heartwarming.  And I find it in 
accordance with 1 Timothy 5:4 :
"If a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all 
 to put their religion into practise by caring for their own family, and so 
 repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God."
and later, :8 :
"If anyone doesn't provide for his relatives, and especially for his 
 immediate family, then he has denied the faith and is worse than an 
 unbeliever."
								[ NIV ]



Nancy (.2) that chapter also addresses the fellowship obligation towards it's 
members with no support.

�    We are a selfish society... depending on Social Security to meet the
�    needs of our parents.  

We live in a society which is under attack by satan.  The family unit, as 
ordained by God (eg Psalm 68:6), is being fragmented by the demands of our 
culture.  Instead of living in naturally helping, related communities - 
'close-knit', we are scattered to the winds.

Under the plea of 'education', adolescents at the most vulnerable stage of 
emotional development are removed from parental supervision and care, and 
segregated together, subject to the temptations of adulthood, but isolated 
from their natural source of mature advice....  Later, employment may take 
them anywhere, not necessarily anywhere near the family unit.

[ ok, so that sounds reactionary; 3 of my 4 sons are currently at 
  university, and I thank the LORD that He has protected them spiritually, 
  as well as in other ways.  I don't thank the system! ]

The pace of life, and it's demands today make communication difficult 
between the elderly and those trying to make their way to the front of a 
profession (not even to the top, necessarily).  It can be very diffcult for 
people to relate across the generations.  Yet, this is what we should be 
doing according to 1 Timothy 5.  We have become a selfish society, as Nancy 
said, investing for an early coronary while 'the state' provides that slot 
without the warmth of blood relationship, not only for the elderly who can 
no longer keep up, but also the children who no longer seem to be a reason 
to make a home...

Again, very emotive.  And not at all addressed against those whose personal
situation doesn't permit them to do what they would prefer in these areas;
rather addressed to the western culture which is decaying, and calling
'evil' 'good', and 'good', 'evil'. 

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to 
 look after widows and orphans in their distress and to keep oneself from 
 being polluted by the world"
						James 1:27

						love...
							Andrew

    This is most difficult and the advice regarding the quick passage of
    time is most accurate - my parents no longer need my help here on
    earth, and I miss them.  My father died suddenly, while in generally
    good health and at only 63 years of age.  My mother lived until she was
    83 and died slowly from Alzheimer's.  She lived by herself, with her
    brother, with us and finally I hired 24hr live-in nursing in her home.
    The mobility and geographic separation of the modern family contributes
    to the difficulty.
    
    This is one area that I will not pass any opinion on what someone else
    does.  The advice to consider NOW, what you will do, is perfect.  Don't
    be hasty or superficial.  There are pressures of money, spouse and
    family, and the need to perform tasks you are not accustomed to, like
    changing your mother's diaper, that you will find most difficult. 
    Probably the most difficult thing for me, was trading roles - my mother
    was totally dependent on me and my mind SCREAMED it shouldn't be this
    way.
    
    Please, Dear Brethren, pray  and ponder carefully and thouroghly. 
    Don't glibly say what you would do, but KNOW that you WILL DO IT!
    Then do one thing more, decide how you will conduct yourself if you get
    old.  Do you want to live with your children and under what
    circumstances, and plan accordingly for that future.  Maybe when you 
    carefully consider your own future, you can better realize what you
    will do for your parents.  As you get older, your priorities and
    feelings will change, so continue to plan for your parents and
    yourself.
    
    One of the most important changes in my life, was expressed this
    January, just prior to my birthday, when my son asked me what I would
    like, and I responded, "Time".
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl
    
     

Agreed, Daryl.  

I wasn't trying to put a burden on anyone, but rather to demonstrate that
the Bible supports a practical approach to 'Honour your mother and
father...." .  

Working it out in the individual situation only starts from there, with 
real relationships and differences to address.  For some, what seems 
obvious to others is, to them an impossibility....

Also meaning, if you have accepted this sort of responsibility, don't be
intimidated or fooled out of it lightly. 

							love
								Andrew

    Thank you Andrew for entering the Scripture upon which I base my
    conviction on this matter.
    
    Well said Daryl!
    
    Maybe there are people in the conference who are struggling with this
    very thing right now and would like to express their struggle or have
    some questions answered.  Please feel free to do so.  The Family of God
    should be free and open with each other.  
    
    jeff

    RE .2
    
    Hi Nancy,
    
    I can relate with you, however, it would have to be with my father.  He
    was very negligent with my sister and me when my parents divorced.  He
    felt he needed to start a new life in his second marriage. 
    Unfortunately he didn't include my sister and me.  Fortunately for him
    my sister and me are believers and we have found through the lord the
    forgiveness for him, and I would have to say, more than ever now that I
    would take care of him if he had no one else to do it, or if he needed
    it.
    
    I can relate to your brother and sister however.  It is very easy to
    hold resentment toward your parent/s for their shortcomings as a
    parent.  However I have finally realized that it would not benefit
    anybody to hold that resentment toward parents who either act like
    believers or non-believers(and I use these terms loosely).  If you
    can't set an example at home, where then can you set an example!!!!
    
    E. Bontonovinchi
    
    

	     I have been wanting to relate our experiences here since this
	note was started and because of the events of the last few days,
	I can think of no better time.  Those of you who are regular
	readers here know that my father-in-law, Lloyd, is in the hospital
	dying.  It has been a time of some sorrow but also a time of great
	joy, for you see, Lloyd was a man of God who loved his Jesus.  These
	last few days have given me a chance to reflect on what it has meant
	to care for him and his wife for the last five years. 

	     My mother-in-law, Dorothy, has had MS in varying degrees of
	severity since long before I met my wife, Sandy.  Through the years,
	as the situation warranted, Lloyd had devoted more and more of his
	time and energy to her personal care.  He retired from St. Vincent's
	hospital as head electrician at 65 to devote himself full time to
	her care.  After about 5 years it became apparent that the day when
	he could no longer do so was rapidly approaching.  We would get phone
	calls after midnight saying "I dropped Mommy" and we would drive 
	across Worcester to help them.  Let me interject that there was no
	real decision to be made.  God put it into our hearts and there was
	no question that we would be caring for them even though Sandy has
	another sister and a brother.  We sold our house and bought the 
	house we are in now, a beautiful brick split entry with a 3 room
	apartment that is wheelchair accessible.  Time does not permit me
	but a string of `coincidences' convinced us that this house was a 
	gift from God, not to mention the witness of His spirit in our 
	hearts.  Sandy's parents sold their house and moved in with us.

	     It would nice if I could say that the last 5 years has been
	all smiles and laughter but I can't.  There have been times of tears,
	anger, harsh words, frustration, etc.  It wasn't long after they 
	moved in that Lloyd was diagnosed with parkinson's and he steadily
	deteriorated.  During his treatment reference was made to prostate
	cancer.  What!?!  He was diagnosed years before and Lloyd claims 
	he was never told.  We suspect that he chose to keep it a secret
	so he could continue to care for Dorothy for as long as he was able.
	He could be so frustating at times, often doing things that seemed,
	at the time, deliberately nasty or mean.  At first we thought that 
	Dorothy would be the problem because she is a very strong willed
	woman but she has been easy to care for.  It was also frustrating
	because I knew Lloyd as a man of God, eager to share his faith
	and always ready to pray in his best King James english.  What we
	were seeing challenged our faith and there were times when we 
	questioned his very salvation.  Sandy's memories of him when she
	was little made it especially painful for her.  She would come down-
	stairs in the middle of the night to find him sitting at the kitchen 
	table reading his Bible.  Friends, relatives and health care people
	would push us to put him in a nursing home and their intentions were
	good.  They were concerned for our family's health and well being. 
	There were times that we almost caved in to the pressure but somehow
	we clung to what we knew God had for us to do.  

	     I don't tell you all this to discourage anyone but rather to
	encourage those who choose/have to care for their parents.  God
	has carried us through and blessed us tremendously as a family and
	individually.  He has shown what it realy means to serve Him.  Our
	children have learned what it means to be servants of the Most High
	God.  I could go on and on about my kids; maybe in the other note
	reserved for that.  Lloyd is now in a coma at St. V's and over the
	last few days God has shown me what a *privilege* it has been to
	serve Him through serving Dorothy and Lloyd.  And it is such a 
	privelege to witness so intimately the calling home of a child of
	God.  In the last few days as his body was deteriorating we watched
	his spirit come alive as he drew closer to being with the Lord.  The
	bitterness and anger was shed like a snake sheds its' skin and we
	began to see the old Lloyd return.  The sense of humor, the smiling
	eyes, the loving heart.  It was all back.  God showed me that Lloyd's
	bitterness and anger was frustration at not being able to serve Him.
	His life was dedicated to serving God through serving others and 
	now he was completely helpless.  We became aware of the many people
	whose lives were touched by his faith and love.  When he worked at
	St. V's as an electrician, people saw him as the true chaplain of
	the hospital.  I have heard that the monsignor (the `official' hos-
	pital chaplain) sought his advice and assistance in counseling patients 
	from time to time.  Also, Faith Baptist Church in Auburn would not
	exist if it were not for Lloyd and because it is a spin-off from 
	Faith, neither would Charlton Baptist Church exist.  I can't begin 
	to imagine how many have come to know Jesus either directly or 
	indirectly through Lloyd.  As he lay dying, I have looked on with
	awe and wonder and almost a feeling of envy.  God honors our desire
	to serve Him and He opened our eyes to the service we have really
	done for Him in caring for one of His wounded children.  I wish 
	everyone could know the joy that is in me right now.  I just want
	to encourage you who serve in this way, IT IS WORTH IT!  

	     I write this not only as an encouragement, but as a tribute
	to my father-in-law, Lloyd Ulie Waters, a child of God.  He's
	going home soon and I don't think I've ever seen anyone so eager.
	I am grateful to those of you who have prayed for us over the last
	few days.  Your prayers have born fruit that I can't begin to express.

	In His boundless love,
	Dave
    

    
    Dave,  Your note is a blessing and encouragement to me.  Thank you for
    entering it.  Lloyd is shortly to be in the presence of God.  We who
    believe shall all be there one day...soon.  If you would like to have a
    very beautiful, comforting and challenging vision of heaven I recommend
    the book "Within Heaven's Gates" by a woman, last name is Springer.
    
    jeff

    Dave... 
    
    Touched my heart deeply... Thanks for putting this in the conference,
    hopefully, we can learn through other's experiences.. I say hopefully,
    cuz, most of my life, I was told that I only learned through my own.
    
    :-)
    God Bless and thanks,
    Nancy