Conference wahoo::fishing

	I can't speak to the ABS, however I'll vouch for the aluminum canoe
	being noisy, and the ones I've been in do not glide the way fiberglass
	does (something akin to plowing a bathtub through the water.  It has
	been my experience that the aluminum is tough, but difficult/expensive
	to repair whereas the ABS is nearly indestructable.  If it were me I'd
	go with the ABS everytime...
						Al

    Just to reenforce what Al is saying about fiberglass canoes, I once
    read the results of a study where aluminum canoes were compared
    to fiberglass for ease of paddling.  It was found that a glass canoe
    with a waxed hull will glide up to 50% better thru water than an
    aluminum hull.  The main reason being that an aluminum hull's surface, 
    when inspected under a microscope, is actually quite porous which
    creates drag.  
    
    -Joe-

      Sounds good so far guys, but now I'm wondering about waxxing ABS.
    Will it help ABS like it does fiberglass?
    
      Thanks for the replies.

    The one most important thing that makes one canoe easier to paddle
    than the other is the width of the beam (the widest point of the
    canoe).  The wider the canoe the more water you have to push it
    through....if you get my drift!!  The Coleman and the Grumman
    have...I believe anywhere from a 34-36 in beam!  That is smaller
    than the Merrimack or the Mansfield, they are 39-40 in.  
    And as far as stability goes...the width is also the leading factor!
    The wider the beam the more stable the canoe!
    
    							John
    

    re: waxing ABS
    
    Anything that you do to reduce friction will help.  An easy way
    to tell if waxing will help is to wax a small section.  Then, lightly
    draw your fingers over the unwaxed area to the waxed area.  If you
    feel your fingers glide more smoothly...then it will work the same
    way in water.
    
    BUT PLEASE DON'T USE VASELINE!!
    
    Only use that when you need to stick it where the sun don't shine!
    
    -Joe- (patiently_waiting_for_feedback_from_above_comment...)
    

     I know you said you had it narrowed to two choices, and price
     was a factor, but the best deal in a moderately priced canoe
     around (moderate, but not cheap), is a canoe made by Old Town
     and sold by LL Bean.  

     It's 17'4", 34 " wide at the waterline, weighs 78 pounds, and is	
     of a shallow arch design, all of which means it tracks well and
     is easy to paddle.  Material is a Cross Link polyethylene, which
     I believe will be as tough as ABS.

     Price is $495, delivered free anywhere East of the Mississippi.

     If I didn't have three canoes in my backyard already, this would
     be the one I'd buy.  In fact, I may sell all three and buy this one
     yet.

     -gary

    .6:  Thanks for the input on Old Towns. What I had my heart set
    on was the Mad River 17' Explorer, but big $$$.
      The price you quoted sounds good for an Old Town but it's about
    $200 more than I can get the colman for. I hope that later I will
    be able to move into a bit better floater, but for now I have to
    keep it inexpensive. If you decide to sell one of yours soon let
    me know about it. I will have something by the weekend.
                    
    .5:   no reply  
         (Hmmmm, sounds like a pun on midwesterners)

    
      My father has a Colman 15 mariner. It is made of ABS and is lots
    of fun.But it is much harder to move through the water than a similar
    canoe made of fiberglass.. Not to mention it is heaver that a 
    fiberglass canoe by about 1/3.
    
    						wh.

    I have the Coleman 15' canoe and I think is a very good buy for the money.
    The "RAM X" hull is virtually indestructible and very easy to maintain.
    It weighs only 65 pounds and I take it by myself all the time.
    
    As far as it being harder to move through the water, I had no problem
    paddling around in it last year.  Even on a windy day, I would sit in
    the bow seat since it is closer to the middle and keep the stern
    into the wind without it spinning me around.
    
    This year though I am planning on buying an electric trolling motor.
    That way I can troll and fish on my way to certain spots on the
    lake or pond.
    
    Mike_L (Still_looking_for_an_electric)

       RE:.9  "Ram X", is that the standard Colman canoe hull?
    		 Is it ABS?
    		

    re .10
    
    "RAM X" is the name Coleman calls the alloy that the hull is made
    off.  It's kind of plasic/vinyl texture.  The RAM X is "memory"
    shape.  Now matter how it is bent, it will always return to its
    original shape.
    
    Mike_L

    LETS TALK CANOES FIRST OF ALL LETS LOOK AT MATERIAL. THE COLEMAN
    IS MADE OF POLYETHELENE WHICH IS CHEAP BUT HAS NO STREGNTH IN ITSELF
    HENCE THE ALUM. FRAME.BUY CHEAP,GET CHEAP.   ABS IS A VERY GOOD
    MATERIAL BUT PRICY AND HEAVY IT HAS MEMORY WHICH MAKES IT GOOD FOR
    USES LIKE WHITE WATER. SOME GOOD NAMES-BLUE HOLE,MOHAWK,OLD
    TOWN,LINCOLN,MAD RIVER.                                        
    NEXT WE HAVE FIBERGLASS. IT LENDS ITSELF TO MANY MORE DESIGNS BUT
    WATCH THE TYPE.  A)  CHOPPER- RANDOM GLASS STRANDS IN POYYESTER RESIN.THIS
    IS THE CHEAPEST,HAS LITTLE STRENGTH(GREAT
    CANIADEN,GAZZEL,FIBERLITE,SEARS,)                              
    B)WOVEN ROVING-IS A WOVEN GLASS MATERIAL IT THE NEXT BEST LAYUP
    ,IT HAS BETTER STRENGTH UNDER STRESS,ALSO NORMALLY USED WITH POLYESTER
    RESIN.                                                         
    C) FIBERGLASS CLOTH - THE BEST TYPE OF GLASS HULL,THIS CAN BE FOUND
    WITH POLYESTER AND EPOXY RESINS. IT IS THE STRONGEST AND LIGHTEST.
    THE LIGHTER THE CANOE THE MORE IT WILL COST.DUE TO DESIGN COSTS,AND
    SKILLED LABOR. SOME OF THE BEST BRANDS IN THIS CATOGORY- (BLACK
    RIVER,WENOHA,JENSON,MAD RIVER,OLD TOWN,MOHAWK,LINCOLN)         
                                                                   
    D) THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND BEST MATERIAL IS KEVLAR WITH EPOXY
    RESINS.$$$$$                                                   
                                                                   
    THE HULL DESIGN OF CANOES DEPENDS ON PURPOSE- GENERAL RULES- THE
    LONGER THE WATER LINE THE FASTER ,ROCKER DETERMINES TURNING ABILITY,AN
    ASYMETRICAL CANOE CREATES LESS TURBULANCE THUS IS FASTER THAN
    SYMETRICAL. A ROUND BOTTOM HAS LESS SURFACE AREA THAN FLAT THEREFORE
    IT WILL HAVE MORE DYNAMIC STABILITY.                           
                             
    NOW THAT I HAVE YOU TOTTALY CONFUSED ALL I CAN SAY IS TRY BEFORE
    YOU BUY,AND REMEMBER THAT YOU GENERALLY GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. IF
    YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE.JUST ASK .                         
                                        PADDLE ON.    WALT.

    or buy Canoe magazine's anual buyers guide issue

    RE .13
    
    Can anyone point me to which issue of Canoe magazine that has the
    anaual buyer's guide?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Kenney
    

    Has anyone ever heard of Vermont brand canoes of Newport Vt? They
    appear very similar to the Old Town at a bit less price. I believe
    they are a division of Northeast Canoe. Any feedback on these?

    
    There are two Vermont Canoe Companies:
    
    	Stowe Canoe company of Stowe, Vermont - builds the "Mansfield" line
    of canoes.
    
    	Mad River Canoes of Waitsfield, Vermont
    
    Both companies manufacture fiberglass canoes of many styles.
    
    - Rob