Conference wahoo::fishing

    	Here is a tip on doing large patches (holes) that I found out 
    by accident.
    
    	When trying to patch a fiberglas boat, the first thing that
    probably comes to mind is using fiberglas cloth and resin. If the
    area you want to patch has gelcoat(sp?) on it, you will find (with
    time) that the cloth and resin will not actually bond to the gelcoat.
    	One thing that will bond is plastic filler as used in auto body
    repair. What you do is rough up the gelcoat finish with rough
    sandpaper, put a thin layer of plastic filler any place the cloth
    will be, and rough sand it. Then put the cloth and resin on in the
    usual manner. After the fiberglas dries, you can then go back and put 
    a few thin layers of plastic filler over the cloth and sand it to 
    perfection. If done right, you have a sturdy, pliable patch that
    cannot be seen.
    	As a personal preference, I have had good luck with Bondo
    lightweight plastic filler. This sands down much easier than their
    regular Bondo.
    
    RAYJ

    	The other thing is to use acetone as a wax remover in the area
    to be repaired after rough sanding and feathering the edges.  The
    acetone removes the sealer surface of the fiberglass gel.  This
    lets the new stuff bond to the gel coat.  WARNING!!!!  ACETONE IS
    VERY FLAMABLE!!!!!!  Use in well ventilated area with NO OPEN FLAMES
    and NO SMOKING!!!!  A friend told me he didn't need to observe the
    above warning.  Cost him a new garage and the car he was building
    as well.

    I have a Merrimack, 13' canoe. Like the Mansfield, it is a combination
    of wood strips (I think ASH) and fiberglass. I really love my
    Merrimack, and have tried to keep it in as good a condition as I
    can.In the past I have put a coating of poly.. over the ash strips
    but could never come up with any renovation methods for the hull
    scratches. One year I tried painting the larger scratches, to match
    the existing color but the results were questionable. I never tried
    any kind of gelcoat scratch filler. A spring coat of good auto wax
    has been the only hull maintenance I've done lately. Pass on the
    results of your gelcoat adventure, I'd be interested to know!
    
    Bill D. - The pond paddler!
    

    I owned two 13' Merrimacks before I bought the 15' Mansfield!  The
    two are very similar.  What color is your Merrimack?  A friend of
    mine just bought a cream colored one from a woman who's father brings
    them up from Tennesee to the distributors in this area!  If you
    want I'll have my friend get in touch with this woman and find out
    if you can get a tube of the Gelco from them!  I haven't got mine
    yet!  I'm going to call again!  I poly the inside of mine when I
    bought it 7 years ago!  I take real good care of it and I have 
    a can of Trewax 4 season boat wax...Its good stuff!  I'll keep you
    posted!
    
    							John
    

    The Merrimack I have is a sky blue (Robin's egg color). I don't
    think they sale this color any more. If I had to do over again I'd
    get the cream color, it seems to show the scratches less. You mentioned
    a boat wax called Trewax. Is this better then an auto pate wax,
    like Turtle Wax, Rain Dance, etc.,? Can you get it at most marine
    stores?
    
    B.D.

    I'm not sure if its any better than car wax but its made for fiberglass
    boats!  Its a paste wax in a can!  It puts a nice shine on it! 
    You can get it at a marine store!  I bought mine down in Brockton
    when I was down there for a visit!  My brother has the sky blue
    16' merrimack!  That hides the scratches a lot better than forest
    green!!
    
    							John        
    

     Late last spring, two "friends" of mine borrowed my 16' fiberglass
     Mohawk canoe.  They then proceeded to play Deliverance, i.e., 
     wrapping it around some rocks, one of the paddlers getting swept
     downstream, the whole works.  It never dawned on me that when they
     said they were taking a whitewater canoeing class that they were
     going to do anything beyond learning technique in some fast moving
     river.  I really question the judgment of an instructor that let
     them attempt the class of WW they did with a fiberglass flatwater
     canoe.

     Anyways, to the point:  the canoe had MAJOR damage.  Three or four
     long fractures (1-2' each), a number of little fractures, and 	
     the aluminum gunwales completely out of shape.  I did some research,
     along with talking to some experienced canoe repairer's, and decided 
     to try to repair the canoe myself.

     We drilled the rivets out of the gunwales and took them, the thwarts,
     and the seats completely out.  Using a disk sander, we proceeded to
     grind each fracture area on both the inside and outside until all signs 
     of delamination were gone.  Then, using woven fiberglass and WEST 
     System Epoxy Resin, we first patched the inside of each fracture/
     hole.  We added another coat of resin to each patched area after the
     first had set.

     Then, we repeated the process on the outside.  On the outside, we
     made our own gel coat by mixing a red pigment concentrate in with
     the resin.  We put a total of three layers of resin on the outside 
     of the patches.  Next, we sanded each patched area down, inside and
     out.  We ended up painting the entire canoe with some leftover
     aircraft enamel we aquired.  The only thing we didn't do I wish we
     had was fill in the depressions in the epoxy with an automotive
     type spot putty.

     The gunwales and thwarts we replaced with oak ones we made ourselves,
     and we also added caned oak seats.  All in all, the canoe got quite
     facelift, and I learned a lot in the process.

     
     -gary

    REF .7 - Boy! Can I relate to the "white watering with a barrowed
    canoe adventure", about 15 or so years ago myself, along with a
    friend, convinced a good friend to lend us his NEW canoe to use
    on a local pond for fishing. Somehow, on the way the the pond, our
    fishing plans turned into white water canoeing. To make a long story
    short, we caught no fish that day and ended up with a canoe that
    was broken up so bad the only thing holding the front half of the
    canoe to the back half, were the two gunnels. Boy was Glen (owner
    of the canoe) P.O'd. I didn't blame him, after all he never even
    got to try the canoe, my buddy and I were the first users.  We w
    offerred to buy Glen a new canoe but told him he'd have to wait
    a couple of years until we could save up enough money. 
    
    Well the bottom line is we ended up putting alot of time into repairing
    the canoe and as far as I know, it's still being used. By the way
    it was a fiberglass canoe. 
    
    Since that day I've grown older and wiser. Glen has since forgiven
    us for our poor judgement and we all look back at the experience
    with a smile. The bottom line is don't take fiberglass canoes white
    watering and don't ever lend out you canoe to a couple of teenage
    guys without first getting a security deposit!
    

    
    
      I have an older cedar rib'd canvas covered canoe that needs repair.
    I would like to remove the old canvas, replace it, repair a few
    cracked ribs and then paint it.  Anyone have any tips on how to remove
    the old canvas, what kind of new canvas to use, how to attach and
    prepare the new canvas and what type of paint to use. Any help would
    be appreciated.
    
      I hope to use it this summer to fish the Bow River (Calgary, Alberta)
    for some Rainbow and Brown Trout.
    
    
    Thanx...
    
    Ed 
    

    Yesterday, I discovered I had the same problem you have:  the old
    canvas has to go. 
    
    My question is whether to go for a recanvas job, or try a fiber
    glass layup over the cedar planking, or some polycoat....Have you
    done any research on the + and - of these choices?
    
    I'm starting to find info now...will put it here if you find it
    useful.
    
    Peter
    

    
    Actually a glass or polycoat sounds like a good idea.  The painted
    canvas needs constant maintenance as the paint seems to scratch
    through so easily.  I'll be looking into what books the library
    has this week on canoe refinishing.  I publish my results here.
    
    Has anybody out there ever tried to glass a canoe?  Is it difficult
    to work with and finish?  Is it expensive?
    
    Ed...

    Well, I called a place called The Restoration Center in Jaffery,
    NH, to find what they did and what they charged for "restoring"
    wood/canvas canoes.
    
    $45/foot   (that is, a 16-foot canoe, like mine == $720)
    
    And, they can do it within 9 months to a year. [backlog...]
    
    This information has increased my desire to find out other methods
    of fixing the canoe.  However, I will (probably) take mine up there
    (over there?) to have them give a prognosis of my canoe's current
    condition.  If they can make it last another 30 years....
    
    

    Anyone ever re-glass the entire exterior bottom of a canoe?
    
    I have an el-cheapo Sears canoe that leaks.  It doesn`t have any 
    major holes, just hairline cracks that are hard to see unless your
    sitting above them, fishing, watching the water come in. 
    
    I tried spreading a thin layer of plastic filler (like bondo) around
    the areas that I suspected, but that didn't do it.  I'm now considering
    getting a big piece of glass cloth (around 3'x14') and doing the
    whole bottom.  But I have no idea if a piece that size is available,
    or how much it'd cost...?   Any ideas?                     
                                       
    Don Mac                            
                                       

    Fiberglas comes in rolls, so you will have no trouble getting a
    piece the size you need.  Try a marina -- if you look for auto body
    repair kits that use the fiberglas, all you'll find is small sheets.
    
    Putting the fiberglas on the outside will look pretty bad -- you
    might want to consider glassing the inside instead.  If the problem
    is hairline cracks, a coat of paint on the outside should seal them.

    	I don't know about cost but glass cloth is available in many
    widths including the 3' you mentioned. Bliss Marine used to stock
    it.

    I've already sanded, applied a thin layer of plastic filler (putty
    and resin) around what appeared to be the trouble spots, and painted 
    - and it still leaks.      
    
    As long as the materials cost isn't too great, I'd like to re-glass.
    I want to stop the leaks AND get a stronger hull.  I couldn't care
    less how ugly it is.  I'll give it a camo-green and brown paint
    job if I have too.
    
    I'll check out the bliss catalog tonight.
    
    Thanks for all the input, and keep `em coming!
    
    DonMac 
   

    DonMac,
    	I agree with your decision to glass over the canoe. Any leaks
    of the type you describe could be an indication of a serious structural
    problem. Just sealing the leaks won't strengthen thehull. If you
    don't mind the extra weight that you are adding and the cosmetic
    effects then glassing is the way to go. You could probably get away
    with sealing the outside and adding the glass to the inside but
    even if you are planning on glassing the outside you may still
    want to add some reinforcing glass in some strategic spots on the 
    inside as well. 
    	With any luck your canoe will be as strong as a tank when you
    are through. It will probably look like one and weigh the same too.
    :^)	:^) 

Don,
	If you're looking for additional options, expertise you might look
around in/ask in the SAGE::RIVERRAT conference which is the whitewater canoe
and kayak people. If anyone knows about busted canoes and how to fix em,
someone there should.  (hit KP7 to add to your notebook).

						Al

    Don, As I remember Cabela's has fiberglass products in there catalog.
    
    Rich

    Good idea Al, I have that in my notebook already, but don't get in
    there often... I'll post it in there as well...
  
    donmac
    
    didn't get around to checking the catalogs last night..............  

    	Don,
    		If you have Gelcoat (sp?) on the bottom of your canoe
    there is a very good chance that the fiberglass will not stick as
    good as you might think. Sanding off all the Gelcoat does not sound
    like a good alternative. As someone mentioned in an earlier note,
    it sounds like the way to go is to fiberglass the "inside" of the
    canoe. The advandages should be as follows:
    
    	Better bond meaning greater strength, better looks, smoother
    hull (as compared to doing outside) meaning less drag going through
    the water, and a better chance of success in sealing the leaks.
    
    	The only drawback is it would be a little harder to clean/prep
    the surface.
    
	Are you doing just the bottom or the whole thing ???? If your
    doing the latter, I would recommend doing it in no less than three 
    sheets of cloth. I would first do the bottom, then do each side making 
    sure to overlap on the bottom. This should be a lot easier than trying 
    to do it in one piece and there should be no loss in strength.
    
    	If you opt to do the outside anyway, I'd recommend putting down
    a skim coat (very thin layer) of LIGHTWEIGHT plastic body filler
    after you sand and clean the outside. I can tell you from experience
    that plastic body filler bonds better to the gelcoat than the fiberglass
    cloth and resin. The lightweight plastic filler is about 5 times
    easier to sand and also seems to be a little more flexible. The fiberglass
    and resin will bond very well to the plastic filler. Again, I would
    think it would be MUCH easier to do the fiberglass in no less than
    3 pieces, but I would do the sides first and then the bottom. 
    
    	If you try to do it in one big piece you will probably find
    that your resin will start to harden BEFORE you get the cloth
    completely smoothed and in place. Mixing the resin properly will be 
    EXTREMELY critical. 
    
    	Another recommondation is get a bristle (sp?) brush over a
    synthetic one. Some synthetics will melt when exposed to resin.
    
    	Lastly, there are 2 types of resin that I know of. The one I have 
    dealt with and the most common is polyester resin. The other is epoxy
    resin. Polyester resin will melt styrofoam on contact, epoxy won't.
    I don't know which of the two is stronger or bonds better.
    
    At any rate, good luck and let us know how you make out.....RAYJ
    

    I'd like to add one comment to .22. As far as I know epoxy
    and polyester resins are very similar in strength, but are
    not very compatible. Make sure to test a small area before you
    apply a large amount of resin, as polyester will attack epoxy
    based fiberglass, and that could really ruin your day.
    
    Wayne

	Re: .13

	I did this exact same thing last year.  My canoe had stress
	fractures along the side, where it curves to the bottom.

	I had two reasons for glassing both sides the length of the
	canoe, 16'. 1) repair the fractures, and 2) strenghten the sides.

	I have a friend who worked with Fiberglas for several years
	so, I asked him to help me out.  he had all the material, cost 
	was to six packs for the work.  I just called him to go over with me 
	what we did...

	What we did....  (you, Don Mac, may not need to do some of 
	what I had to do)

	Sanded the inside of the canoe where the glass was to be laid.
	Wound up cleaning the area with a solvent (acetone sp?).  Why?
	Because as the gel-coat cures, it creates a waxy film.  The sanding
	pads got clogged with this waxy film, and had to be changed OFTEN.  
	We went through maybe 25 sanding disks.  The acetone took the surface 
	junk off with some elbow grease rather nicely.  It looked like well 
	chewed gum as it gobbed together in the rags.  - you may not 
	have to remove any of this stuff if you do the bottom - 

	Cut strips of glass about 6" wide and laid them the length of 
	the canoe, one side at a time.  Mixed gelcoat stuff with the 
	hardener. (*) I painted the glass strips as my friend rolled out the 
	glass removing air from between the glass strips and the inside of 
	the canoe wall.

	Once one side was done we waited a while for it to set up, 
	then began the process over again with the other side.
	
	When the second side had set up pretty good we sanded over the
	first side just to remove burrs (Fiberglas), and smooth out 
	drips of gelcoat on the bottom of the canoe.  The second side 
	was done after it had set up as well.

	(*) We did this outside.  With one side we had problems due to 
	the heat of the afternoon.  The gelcoat began to set up almost 
	as fast as it was put on.  Result, couldn't roll out the glass
	strips completely on the one side.  On the second side my friend 
	used much less hardener.  And, while we where able to finish painting 
	the stuff on, and rolling it out, it was touch and go at the end.
	
	GLOVES- are a must. rubber type gloves.  My friend has a special 
	kind of glove he uses for this kind of work, and I forgot to ask him 
	about the gloves.  But, if I remember, rubber type gloves for 
	doing dishes will NOT work.  Even with the heavy duty type gloves I 
	could still feel the heat of the chemical reactions of the hardener 
	and gelcoat.  

	BRUSHES - you'll need a few, and alot of acetone.  You'll need 
	a couple containers for cleaning the brushes, one "dirty" 
	container and one "clean".  Dirty being the one the brushes sit in 
	between strokes if you will.  Clean being one you will rinse the 
	brush in before stoking again.

	Containers - you may need a few for mixing batches of gelcoat 
	and hardener together.

	Rags - as many as you can get your hands on.  

	Smoking- is a no no anywhere near this stuff.

	Ventilation - you want to consider a garage.  The smell of 
	some of this stuff may linger in the basement and filter upstairs.  
	Not to mention fibers of glass that may float around.

	Drinking - wait till after your done, but maintain a reservoir
	of your favorite four letter words, and a sense of humor.

	Also, you may want to consider doing the bottom in sections.  
	The reason why I say this is that by the time you finish painting the 
	stuff on the glass, the first parts painted maybe to hard to roll out.
	And the brushing on of this stuff has a tendency to break apart the 
	glass matting.  When this begin to happen you get holes in the 
	glass, and you start moving it around with your fingers.  Then you get 
	Fiberglas stuck everywhere, gloves, brushes, etc.  In addition, 
	your mixture of gelcoat and hardener may be to thick to put on by the 
	time you reach the end.   It's not bad stuff to work with when it's 
	liquid.  But once it starts to gel up, it can be a pain.  Do 
	it in small sections at a time, you may find it alot easier, 
	and the glas will blend in with what's laid down.

	The weight added to the canoe surprised me.  I don't know what the 
	canoe weighed before the work, but after it was a good 10lbs maybe
	12lbs heavier.  Comparing it to my father-in-laws 17' lincoln, 
	after the work it's still lighter, and I have no problems lifting it 
	to my shoulders, loading on the car, or carrying it.

	Bryan
    

	

	I just picked up an 18' canvas and wood canoe that needs a little
	work.  I've never owned a canoe of any kind before, so any advice
	is appreciated, but in particular, I would like to know:

		-  what can be used to seal a couple of small (under 1 inch)
		   splits in the canvas on the bottom?

		-  what is the best way to repair a couple of places along
		   the gunwales(?) where the canvas has pulled away from
		   the wood?  (it almost appears that this was caused by
		   carrying the canoe by gripping the gunwales)

		-  is there a specific sealant that is best for sealing 
		   along the keel?

		-  what type of paint should be used to paint the outside
		   of the canoe?  Will the paint serve to seal the bottom
		   (previous question) or should I do both? (i.e. seal AND
		   paint)

    I owned an 18' Old Town Cedar and Canvas Canoe for many years. I
    found that automotive bondo works well in sealing up the rips in
    the canvas. I discovered this after dumping the thing off the car
    roof in the middle of Nowhere, Quebec. A can of "bondeaux" worked
    just fine to repair the 6"x4" hole stupidity put in the canoe.
    
    After a few repairs of this type, the canvas finally became too
    old to repaint and seal, so a new canvas cover (as well as some
    cedar ribs) were in order. Not having a garage or basement at the
    time, I sold the canoe to a friend who had the time and inclination
    to refurbish that great old canoe. Patch as long as you can, because
    recanvassing is a difficult, time consuming job.
    
    Rich.