Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    
    Last Tuesday here at MKO (Merrimack, N.H.) about 2:30pm we had 8
    deer out on the edge of the parking lot just browsing around.
    
    Needless to say we didn't get much work done that day. To busy looking
    out the office window.
    
    Rick
    

    Came back the other way today.  Pulled off at a rest stop near
    Mnenominee, Wi., to use the phone.  When leaving the rest stop there
    were a series of corn fields on the side of I94.  In the first there
    were 7 or 8 deer laying in the sun (at 5pm) right up near the freeway
    about 50yds from the road.  did a double take but did not stop.  Very
    next field there were six more browsing in the middle of the field. 
    Another tree row and the next field had about twice as many.  Thats
    about 25-30 deer in 1/4 mile.
    
    since these guys can eat 15lbs a day, this farmer loses about 50,000
    lbs by harvest.  No wonder there is so many of em hanging around.
    
    wow!

    did you have your camcorder?
    
    bob
    

    We got a couple of inches of snow a few weeks ago so I went out in the
    woods to scout for some turkeys.  I didn't find any turkey sign, but
    found so much deer activity, I couldn't believe it.  There is a clover
    field about 40 acres surrounded by woods with no other agricultural
    fields within a mile.  I skirted the edge of the clover field and ran
    up on around 30 deer in a cedar thicket.  They ran out of there for
    what seemed like forever!  It really got my blood pumping.  I am going
    to try and go back to look for sheds this weekend, if I can sneak away.
    
    Wess

    	I had my 22mo. old son out for a walk last week along an old 
    railroad bed and I saw a deer coming around the bend and I ducked 
    into the woods. She continued down the trail and passed by at about 
    6 feet. I decided to take my hand away from Cam's mouth and he yelled
    DEER!! I never saw a deer so startled! She jumped about 5ft. straight
    up and landed running. Too funny!! She looked very healthy for such 
    a bad winter.
    
    				Butch

    I bet you after that episode, you were able to show your son what
    deer feces looks like!
    
    bob
    

    	I'll have to be careful when I take him scouting and he watches
    me check droppings to see how fresh. Then he'll start checking the
    freshness of his own!!
    
    					Butch

    I spotted an 8 pointer last night.  I was sitting in my stand,
    (recliner), and looked up to my left, and saw this 8 pointer with a
    swollen neck looking down at me.
    
    What that means is, I got my deer head from the taxidermist a couple 
    nights ago, and after a BIG argument with the wife, I won.  My 8
    pointer is in charge of looking over the living room.
    
    I'll tell you what, just looking at him brings back all the memories
    of harvest day.  
    
    

    You won the argument, BUT, what did you LOSE?? :<) :<) :<) :<) 
    
    carl  

    The joy of putting my trophy on the wall.  I also lost that vacation
    to Florida, but won the 7 day cruise instead.  HAH HAH HAH!
    
    In all seriousness though, I did lose something this year, but not
    because of the deerhead.  Currently, I have two pieces of hunting land
    available to me, and I really want to join the hunting club that Earl
    is a member of.  3000 acres of Trophy hunting land, with five hunters.
    There are deer that no one has ever seen there.  Well I was going to
    join this year, but when we booked the cruise, which is desperately
    needed, my wife said we could not afford a cruise, new offroad tires
    for my truck, and the $500 to join the trophy land.  Well, I need this
    vacation, the tires on the truck are almost bald, so, it looks like
    I will hunt only two pieces of land again this year.  No problem, I
    still have a bunch of venison in the freezer, and I know that one of
    the proerties is abundant with deer.  Maybe not trophy class, but you
    never can tell.  The thing that I will miss out on, will be hunting
    with my good hunting partner, and close friend, Earl Shaddix.  And
    that's what it boils down to.
    
    Oh well, at least I can look at my buck every day now.  Not to rathole
    this topic, but what is the story with women?  I told the story of the
    deer head to all the women in my department, and they said the same
    thing my wife said,"No deer head is going on a wall in MY house!"  I
    told my wife, after she said that,"OK, if this is YOUR house, you pay
    the mortgage payment and I will have the money to join deer camp." 
    That pretty much opened her eyes.
    
    Bob
    36 days until my cruise, to many days until deer season.
    

         <<< Note 1255.12 by ODIXIE::RHARRIS "I NEED A VACATION!!!" >>>
                           -< win battle, lose war >-



	Bob,

		At least you're not sleeping in a tent in the yard. She'll
	get use to the mount. Did you manage to find thoses hooks I
	suggested ?

	Red    

    Red,
    
    Found the bracket at ACE, for $1.59 plus tax.  I bought the 75 lb limit
    one.  Worked great.  Why don't you come over and see the new addition?
    Let's talk offline about Eufala!
    
    Bob
    

     Could have been worse. My wife took my deer head down and hung her 
    bear head in its place until a suitable place was found for it.....

    My wife has now grown accustomed to the deer head.  Also, I have
    joined the 3000 acre hunting club.
    
    Red, see me.
    
    bob
    

    Can you believe it!  While coming back from Mass last week on Saturday
    morning about 10:30am on the NY thruway just west of Rochester N.Y.
    exit #46, I spot a moving animal over 1/2 mile ahead.  It looks
    like....Its gotta be .....yep a deer.  
    
    this largish sized deer, probably a doe as antlers hsould be visible by
    now, is cantering along (just like a horse would) the roadway about six
    feet away from the emergency lane in the grass.  Going the same way I am 
    and proably about 20mph, it takes a while for me to get close.  I slowed 
    to about 30mph as I passed.  Worried about what she had in mind.
    
    It was really pretty neat to see up that close and for so long a period
    of time.  Far as I know she is in Buffalo by now.  Kept going along
    well after I passed. 
       

    Went down to deer land this weekend, to build a deck on the cabin.
    Deer land is in south Georgia, out of a small town named Georgetown.
    It is directly across Lake Eufala, in Alabama.
    
    Anyway, we saw plenty of deer.  They had the dark reddish tint summer
    coat on.  PLenty of tracks.  Saw some interesting road kill as follows:
    1 button buck.  Good sized at that.
    2 snakes.  I got one of them.  Thank you, thank you.
    3-5 armadillo
    1 hawk.
    
    The deck looks real good.  It has cedar posts on it, and a real good
    roofing job.  Looking forward to hunting season much more now.
    Time to start watching videos, and shooting the bow.
    
    Bob
    

    Hey Bob,
    
    How far is deer land from Alpharetta, GA� Is this where your deer club
    is and if so are there anymore openings? The reason I'm asking is for
    my brother in law.....
    
    He keeps telling me that he wants to hunt down there. I keep telling
    him that he has to get out of his recliner first :^0
    
    Good job on the snake.....Any big Striper reports out of Lake Lanier.
    I'm heading to Cape Cod this weekend for the salt water version this
    weekend. Chartering a boat for a full moon excursion Saturday night.
    Looking for Mr. BIG (50lbs.+) If this doesn't work I quit :^(
    
    See YA,
    Bob M�

    Bob M
    
    I'm in the same deer club as Bob H. so I can answer your questions.
    
    From Alpharetta it is 205 miles to our land.  We hunt just outside of
    Georgetown, GA and we are about 8-10 miles from Eufala, AL.
    
    We lease 1700 acreas from Georgia Pacific and have access to 1300
    acreas of farm land within and around our lease.  The club next to ours
    is 900 acreas, with 3 members that trophy hunt only with bows.  All
    total last year there was 9000 acreas that only had about 20 hunters.
    
    Our lease is a trophy only club. Yes, there are openings this year. 
    The cost is $500.00.
    
    For more info give me a call at DTN 385-2563.

    Thanks for the info..... Let me give my brother-in-law a call and see
    if he is truly interested. He's a really great guy if you get him out
    of his chair ;^)
    
    Thanks Again,
    Bob M �

    Also, no more additional permanent stands.  You don't want to use
    permanent anyway.  The deer are so damn smart you have to move around.
    
    Portable works best.  Thank god I am a member of this club.
    
    bob
    

    Well last night on my way home happened to see a nice doe about 1/2
    mile from my house. She had the reddish brown summer coat on. Last
    Easter in just about the same spot I saw 3 Moose. I have never hunted
    this spot but I know think I will this year. This is the 3rd time I
    have spotted deer in this spot since the end of hunting season last
    year. It's barely summer and I am already getting the itch. Come on
    September 1st and Bear season!
    							Bret

    god, here come the countdowns.  86 days until bow season for deer in
    Georgia!!!
    
    
    bob
    

    Bob,
     After last year's countdown I cound not resist. Here on the Sea
    Islands of S.C. opening day is Aug. 15 any weapon of your choice.
    
    SOOOO...... FOURTY more days till bow,pistol,rifle,shotgun and tomahawk
    season for deer
    
    
    
    Darrell.

    Darrell,
    
    You might have the jump on me, but I'll get the first deer!  Just
    kidding.  That's great.  Is it going to be hot up there?  I just got
    the offroad tires put on my truck today.  Probably go out to deer land
    in about 3 weeks and fix a pattern on the deer.
    
    Bob
    

    	I was out fishing yesterday in a pond in Oxford Ma. and I heard
    2 different deer blowing at me from opposite sides of the pond at the
    same time. 10 minutes later a turkey started clucking and purring about
    50 yards into the woods. I just caught glimpses of one of the deer. 
    Pretty cool hearing all the wildlife around while bangin' bucketmouths
    !
    
    					Butch

    re: .26
    
     Actually it is probably cooler here than in Atlanta. The ocean makes a
    fair heat sink but the humidity is a killer. I live on Edisto Island
    "about 40 mi south of Charleston" the area I hunt is near my home an
    old rice/indigo/cotton plantation that is now mostly timber with about
    500 acres in coastal bermuda grass soybeans corn ect. The local deer
    swim very well and we get losts of visitors from nearby islands so this
    makes deer management somewhat of a challenge. Last week I was on the
    property doing some clean up and counted 40+ deer in one of the bermuda
    grass fields with others scattered about the place. I guess I saw
    approx 60-65 deer that evening a couple of which were nice size bucks
    for this area. We have a decent amount of turkey but I have not yet
    tried hunting for them. Small game is O.K we usually have a couple of
    dove shoots every year squirrel are doing well this year even see a few
    Fox squirrels but the Bobcats and Foxes are doing a job on the quail
    and rabbits.
    
     So. Bob its not who gets the first deer it's who gets the least number
    of skeeter bites per deer taken.. and somehow I always loose in that
    end..Good luck on your scouting.
    
                                                          Darrell
     

    I have to enter this report.
    
    I went up to my cabin over the 4th for some R&R.  It's in NE Oregon and
    because of its location, I don't see much human activity.  On Saturday
    morning I went for a drive out on the "breaks" of Meacham creek just to
    look at the wildlife.  I came over this rise which looks out on a
    saddle with rimrock on both sides.  Right on the road -not much of a
    road- were 3 mountain lions.  All big and in beautiful shape.  I have
    only seen one other in the wild and it was moving in tall grass so I
    didn't get much of a look.  These were out in plane view.  What a
    sight!!  They just gave me a casual look and trotted down the rimrock
    and shale that made that saddle.
    
    I suspect it was a mother with two grown cubs, but you couldn't tell
    the difference as far as size goes.

    A fellow in the Kootenai NF (NW Montana) I know, says big cats are
    definately making a strong comeback.  Might become a game animal again.  
    
    
    	

    
      And some folks still can't understnad why we enjoy being in the
    woods so much.  
    
    
    Jeff

    Were you able to click off any pictures?  That is so cool.  Isn't 
    wonderful to see wildlife in the wild?  I guess that's why they call
    it "wildlife".  I will be out of commission here for the next week or
    two.  Going on my caribbean vacation, then to hell on earth (Dallas
    Texas in July) for a sales meeting.  I guess Digital got a killer rate
    on hotel rooms or something.  I would have much rather gone to Denver.
    Anyway, enough talk about Digital, back to hunting and wildlife.
    
    Can't wait to go to deer land and scout around.  Might even sit in the
    stand with the camcorder for awhile.
    
    Have a good week everyone.
    
    Bob
    

>>               <<< Note 1255.30 by GLDOA::ROGERS "I'm the NRA" >>>
>>
>>    A fellow in the Kootenai NF (NW Montana) I know, says big cats are
>>    definately making a strong comeback.  Might become a game animal again.  

I don't wish to sidetrack this note, but they are a game animal in
Colorado.  We have a limited license season in which you have to
draw for a permit, but they can be hunted.  Also, I believe that
Utah's had lion hunting for a long time.
    
Jerry    

    Cats are a big game animal in Oregon also with limited license season.
    
    Re - the camera.
    
    This really irritated me cause I "always" carry a camera.  It was in
    the back of the PU and had the wrong lens on it.  I did get a long look
    at the cats through my binos (10 power) and I was fascinated that they
    act just like a house cat with their "greater than thou" attitude. 
    They just seemed to move effortlessly and were out of sight in no time. 
    You spook a coyote and the reaction is quite different.
    
    Ken
    
    
    

    They probably are (cats) in Montana as well.  But I don't know that for
    a fact.  He just said that there were a lot of them.
    

    I was at my deer lease this weekend to show some new members around and
    we saw 12 deer.  My brother-in-law and I drove around Sat evening,
    just before dark, and spotted a total of 10 deer in the peanut fields. 
    All the deer were does except for one four or six pt.  We also saw 2
    does on Sun mourning.  All deer were in excellent shape.  Very healthy
    animals with shiny red coats. 
    
    Our land is in South Georgia on the Alabama border.
    
    
    
    Earl
    

    Thirty More Days !!! This year we got a present deer season comes in on 
    August 14, Saturday 1993 For the Sea Islands of S.C. Normally it is the
    15th. But since that is Sunday we get an extra day and Yes we can hunt
    on Sunday. This years season is Aug14,1993-Jan15,1994. I almost forgot
    saw 7 deer on my way to work this morning. They looked fat and all had
    a mouth full of soybeans. If it doesn't rain soon we might have some
    real problems. Any one in the upper Midwest feel free to send some of
    your rain our way. Our prayers are with you and hope Your troubles end
    soon.
                                                     Darrell

    How many deer can you harvest per year in SC?  I thought GA had a long
    deer season.  I may think about moving to SC if they have any trophy
    deer.
    
    
    Earl
    

    Earl,
    
     Well that depends on where you are. Here where I am on the Sea Islands
    the offical word is 5 antlered deer per year unless you are involved
    with a deer management program on private property then the limit is
    pretty much common sense "To increase herds shoot fewer deer..To
    decrease herds shoot more.." Does are free of limit but restricted
    harvest days on public land. This varies year to year this year I
    believe there are about 30 either sex days on public land. On private 
    land that is in a deer management program Doe harvest is controlled by
    permit and these permits are issued each Oct 1.
     In my hunting area we are trying to improve the body size and rack size
    as well. We just have too many deer. Total area is about 2000 acres this
    is on a penninsula almost totally surrounded by salt water marsh/rivers
    These are no barrier to deer as they swim over at low or high tide from
    the surrounding islands. This is the primary feeding area for about a
    10 square mile area so at times this place gets very crowded with deer 
     There are about 15 active hunters on this property and this year we
    will probably harvest 60-90+ deer depending on how hard we hunt. We
    hope this year that most of that harvest are does . I will be happy to
    answer any question you might have.
                                                        Darrell

    Earl,
     I almost forgot Yes we do have some LARGE deer but they are the
    exception. In the late 1800's the rich carpet baggers imported some
    deer from Upper Michigan to "improve" the the blood lines of our local
    deer. I don't know if there is any link but we take a few 250+ pounders
    that just don't look typical you know shorter legs darker color ect.
    They also don't seem to run to water as often for escape..
    
                                                               Darrell
      

    yep!  That sounds like them U.P. deer all right.  :>).  Funny how they
    seem to cover so much ground without seeming to move at all.
    

    Here is the latest Coastal South Carolina scouting report.
    
    
     Three more weeks till deer season.
    
    
    I went out two evening earlier this week to two places only 30 miles 
    apart but it looked like a different world.
     As some of you know SC is in the middle of a drought in all areas of
    the state except the Coastal Area. The first report is on the area that
    I hunted last year with some success. It is an area about 30 miles
    inland from my home mostly planted pines with about 20% hardwood bays
    (wet weather swamps). This place looks horrible. There is some
    agricultural land planted in food crops for game about 30 acres all
    told. There will be no food from any of these crops and fresh water was
    very hard to find. I only saw 2 deer. One doe and one fawn. On this
    area last year I saw almost 3 deer per hour on the stand. I will not be 
    hunting this area this year. The deer seem to have gone to wetter
    pastures. I don't blame them. I will too....
    
     Report # 2
    
    Next day went to my local area and things there are very very good. In
    about 2 hours walking/looking around I saw 31 deer all in their best
    red coat except the fawns they still had some spots. 4 of these deer
    were in the harvestable stage but stll in velvet with a few tatters at
    the end points. 30 miles makes a world of difference in reguard to
    rainfall and game population.
     Most memorable site of the day. Twin fawns lying side by side about 200
    yds into a bean field. I walked to within 20 feet of them before seeing
    them. I made a detour around them and continued with my scouting. I
    did take a mental picture to remember that afternoon. Looks like I
    should carry a camera my next look around but somehow my memories
    "look" better than my pictures.
    
                                                Good Scouting,
    
                                                             Darrell 

    Was driving to work this morning, (first time in two weeks), when I
    noticed a billboard on the road.  It had a picture of a broadhead, and
    the sign said "Hunting season opens on August 20th".
    
    I thought, "Damn, I got to get shootin my bow".  I called up the DFG,
    and they said that that was a promotion for a movie coming out.
    
    Official Georgia hunting dates are as follows
    
    Bow season opens September 18
    Gun season opens October 23
    Gun season closes on southern zone January 9
    Gun season closes on northern zone January 1
    
    Let's see, bow season on September 18, that gives me 59 days including
    today until bow season.
    
    I have been busy with sales meetings, vacation, and sales awards
    weekends, that I have had little to no time to shoot the bow.  I
    definetely have my work cut out for me.
    
    Bob
    

    
    >noticed a billboard on the road.  It had a picture of a broadhead, and
    >the sign said "Hunting season opens on August 20th".
    
    I saw one of those too, but being NH, I figured someone was confused.
    Anyone know what it is talking about, what movie?
    
    On vacation last week, driving across the Kangamangus Highway, saw 
    a small bull moose (conflict in terms there :-) ), big head sticking
    out of the trees, just chewing away. Couple hundred yards up the
    road, pull over, grab camera, drat, need to load more film, wife 
    turns care around, head back toward moose, see a baby deer, white
    spots and all sneaking under the guard rail, film still not ready
    (I must have slowed down since my photographer days in college), 
    past the moose again, he's moving now, looked like a horse, 
    turn the car around again, camera finally ready, nobody in sight.
    
    Oh well, was nice to see them anyway.
    
    --Bob
    

    The movie is a Jean Claud VAn Damme flick.
    
    Deer sighting.  Driving to work today, on Kimball Bridge road, I 
    was crossing over a swampy area with a creek, when a doe with her
    summer coat stepped out in the road.  I had to hit the brakes.  She 
    bolted from the road to the other side of the swamp, and was gone like
    that.
    
    The good thing is, last year Earl and myself were scouting a huge buck
    Earl had seen in the area, and we figured they would be gone by now
    since there is heavy development gowing on in the area.  It appears
    that there are still deer in the area, and possibly we should scout
    again Earl, what do you think.
    
    Red, I got your note.  Johnny and I are going to Ed's Saturday.  Ed
    says that the deer are all over his garden, and he sees them just about
    every day in his driveway.  Looks like one ladder stand will be leaning
    on Ed's house, and the other will be looking over the garden.  Just
    kidding.  I got to be in the woods.  Anyway, will give you status of
    Ed's place when I get back.  The weekend of the 14th, I am going down
    to Monticello to scout and possibly drop off a stand or two.
    
    Bob
    

    Went to Kiawah Island this past weekend for DEC 100.  My wife and
    myself saw a total of 6 deer.  3 does, 2 fawns, and a 6pt buck still in
    velvet.  He was standing on the side of the road eating.  He was not
    bothered by the cars driving by.  Got some great pictures.
    
    Earl

    One of my hunting partners, and myself went down to the hunting land
    south of the airport Saturday, and all I have to say is that property
    is HOT!
    
    It certainly is no Quitman county, but the deer sign this year is just
    incredible.  I even found my tree stand.  It was in a different place
    than what I thought it was in.  One can certainly become disoriented in
    the woods, if you don't know them.  I was searching an area about 500
    yds away from where the stand actually was.  We stumbled on it.  I
    repositioned it to a prime bottleneck area in the swamp.  An acorn
    ridge to my far left, the swamp bottlenecking to my immediate left,
    and thick pines off to my right.  The deer trails show that the deer
    are traveling right through the bottleneck of the swamp, into their
    bedding area about 250 yds away.  I have strategically set up my stand,
    leaning against a big oak.  I have good shooting lanes, yet I am
    cammo'd enough that movement from me should be noticeable to a minimum.
    
    Golly gee, only 40 days until bow season.  This weekend coming up, I
    will be going to deer land #2, Monticello Georgia.  Earl, I will be
    leaving Saturday about 1 pm if your interested.  Oh well, will probably
    shoot the bow somemore this week.
    
    bob
    

    Up in the north country this past week, tenting it in the western U.P. 
    Backtracked the western end of Stone Lake to discover where the trail
    led.  kept getting surprised by deer coming in this way in the evening
    last year.  (most come from the opposite direction)
    
    Found a huge bedding area about 1/2 mile away in old clearcut (10yrs
    old) that has grown up to 15-20ft poplar.  Very dense.  Two or three
    disturbed by my entry.  Did not see them, but they made a lot of
    racket.  Now to figure out the ambush areas.
    
    Looked over that high ground above Marsh Creek again.  Ths is on the
    edge of new clearcut (3-4yrs old) that is mid thigh high with very rich
    forage.  Stepped in a lot of used forage.  That usually happens in my
    backyard from my dog.  Can't ever remember stepping in deer poop
    before.  Got to the edge of the clearcut and entered the woods and
    then worked downslope across the wind.  Over the crest found a large
    doe feeding about 40yds out in the field at 10:30am.  Stalked her to
    bowshot range, eventually, I made too much noise for even what wind
    sound cover I had and she got nervous and bounded off about 50yds and
    began to snort.
    
    Saw a second large deer furthur down slope and decided to stalk that
    one too.  Unfortunately it was alert (probably from first one's snort)
    and picked up even slow movement very quickly.  Still got within fifty
    yards though but then it lit afterburners and moved out at top speed
    right into the field!  Me, I would have gone the other way, into the
    woods.
    
    I still think that the valley bottom makes a great spot for a flat
    shooting tack driver with a big (20x) scope to pick out movement in the
    evergreen cover (it is like a maze with open corridors).  Since the
    ridge sits about 80-100 ft above this you can see down in there but must 
    be back 300-400yds to sit on the ridge.
    
    Furthur west, while scouting up an abandoned and overgrown two-track, I
    cut inot the woods on my right to see if I could pick up some trails. 
    In about 150yds, the woods opened into grassy swale.  I stop to
    consider how I wanted to cover this.  The wind was in my face.  While I
    was standing stock still looking at the topo map, a blast of racket
    erupts from front and right.  Multiple deer are moving fast right at me. 
    too fast and too many to count.  More than five, less than ten.  A few
    go to my right and behind me, most go to the left and in front of me. 
    None seem to know I'm there.  Really weird.  What set them off?
    
    I waited around to find out, but never got a clue.  One thing stood out
    on this three day scout.  No fawns.  Never saw a one.  All deer looked
    in the 120-140 range and up.  
    
    Later on Friday, came across a large doe, on the edge of a field.  We saw 
    each other about the same time.  I Froze.  She did too.  I got the 
    distinct impression, I was the first human she had ever seen.  I moved my 
    arms around, she just kept staring.  after about two minutes she decided 
    that escape might be smarter than curiosity, but did not make great effort
    to get out of there fast.
    
    52 days to go.
    
    /bob
    

    Yesterday afternoon I was on my way to my friends house (they are up at
    Umbagog Lake for vacation) to feed their cats and bird. About 1/2 mile
    from their house I see something in a dirt road to my left. I stopped
    and backed up. There was a doe and two fawns about 75 yards away in
    broad daylight. It was 4:30PM. I sat there for about 5 minutes and they
    knew I was there but it didn't seem to bother them a bit until another
    vehicle turned around and came back to watch. They soon left. What a
    neat sight. Only 39 more days until bow season. And here I am having
    not even practiced yet. I am still making my tree stands (8 of them).
    Time to buy some bales this week for practice. 
    							;^)   Bret

    Went to the cabin over the weekend for some annual maintenance.  Saw a
    few does.  More dry ones than I would like.  We had 40% fawn kill this
    winter.  Did get into a bunch of elk.  2 spikes and one branched bull. 
    All in velvet.
    
    Ken