Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    I haven't heard this one yet but, I hope it's true! There should also
    be one for Archery. I have taken both of the above listed Safety
    courses and feel that it's no big deal to spend the time taking them.
    In fact I know a few people that like to take refresher courses every
    5 years or so to see if anything new is being taught.
    
                                                               IMHO,
    
                                                               Guy
    

    I have no problem with hunter safety courses per se. However, I see people
    capitalizing on this for their own financial gain rather than for real
    safety. How much do they currently charge compared to when it wasn't
    mandated ? Watch how much it goes up if you can't use last years
    license to obtain a new one. Also, all the classes that are being run
    in my area are at sportsmens clubs. Class sizes are limited and guess
    who gets in first ? Club members. 


    Jim
    

    
    I don't think it would ever happen, at least by law. The current
    type of thing NH has will eventually become a requirement that you
    have a hunter safety course. Right now, to get your first NH license
    you need hunter safety certificate. There is a grandfather clause,
    but eventually this will equate to a requirement to have the course.
    There is a loop hole that you can use another states license to get
    a NH one, if the other state has no hunter safety requirement then
    you get around the NH requirement. This loop hole should be closed so
    that if you want to hunt NH you need a safety certificate from some 
    state.
    
    I doubt any federal law would get through without a grandfather clause
    and I doubt any federal law will go through. 
    
    --Bob
    

    
    Currently I have seen courses offer from Free to $10. With a limited
    class size usually the Sporting Club does have the advantage of an
    early notice to its members. In most cases though if you call the
    Education Dept. of your Fish & Game they have a listing of all
    scheduled classes. It seems that in most cases its the same problem
    most people don't think about what they need until the time comes or
    the season is very close (Poor Management). If these courses were
    mandated you would see them held more often and/or in more places.
    Also I don't believe you have to take that states Hunter Safety course
    either, you should be able to go to another state if convenient.
    
    
                                                   Guy
    

    RE: Guy

    Well I hope your right. I'd hate to see another bureaucracy like the
    registry of motor vehicles.

     Jim

	Guys, how long do these courses normally last? Say, 5 - 10
	days, one day per week in so many weeks? Do they end with
	some sort of an exam? Is there a shooting range (safety)
	test? 

							- Mike

    re. 6 They usually run about 16 hours, I think. 8 sessions of approx. 2
    hours each. Most are one night a week, or use to. The one I took when I
    was 15 took all weekend. And I think I paid a dollar. I still remember
    it well. Even though ti was quite some time ago. In N.H. in the N.H.
    Sunday News in the Sports section there is a list of all the courses in
    the State. 
    							Bret

    
    re: back a couple of replies
    
    	There is no financial gain at any Hunter Education class in 
    Massachusetts.  Attendance of the class is FREE, the instructors are 
    VOLUNTEERS, the facilities are DONATED by the sponsoring organization, 
    the literature/handbooks are PROVIDED by the State.
    
    	If/when the Mandatory requirements come to be, there are gonna
    be some very tired instructors because the State hopes to be able 
    to accomodate the 'mad rush' to take the class.
    
    	We all GAIN when hunters young and old complete a HE class. Hope-
    fully they all leave the class with a good code of ethics and safe 
    firearms handling/hunting practices.
    
    dave (Provisional HE Instructor)

    Well Dave, hopefully all instructors will have your attitude. 
    However, when there's a buck (no pun) to be made, the profiteers 
    will be like vultures circling a gut truck. 

    Gee, how about running a class here at DEC ?


     Jim

    I remember back about 10 years ago, that a couple of guys (Dave Ayotte
    and another guy) put on a hunter safety course in the NIO plant in
    Salem, can't remember the length or # of hours, but it was held in the
    cafeteria after 5:00. Due to being a van commuter I was unable to take 
    the course.  
    
    With the amount of guys willing or wanting to take the course who are
    DEC employees, it would seem like a good idea to put on a course in 
    one of the local plants.
    
    Has anyone looked into the possibility of using a local plant, and even
    more importantly is the any instructors willing to hold one????
    
    I'd definately take it, and I know 3 or 4 others who would also.
    
    Fra

      Last year (as well as the previous year, I believe) there was
    a hunting safety course taught here at the BTO plant.  Haven't
    heard of one this year, but I'm sure the people who organized
    the previous ones will be happy to help out with another.
    
    -Ron-

    re: .9
    Jim,
    	All instructors in Mass HAVE TO HAVE that attitude. They are 
    all volunteers. They teach the classes because they believe there
    is great value to be had from the ethics and safety they present 
    in their classes. There are too many hunters out there with
    questionable ethics and practices to have the youngsters, or folks
    of any age, starting up in the sport learn by example.
    
    	I get the impression you think that somebody is making money,
    or could possibly make money from these classes. Reread my earlier 
    reply. All the services provided are FREE. All the student has to 
    do is show up, pay attention, read the material, show a good attitude
    and pass the test.
    
    dave
    	

    
    Dave,
    
    I think the concern may be that if the government starts requiring it,
    they will set the standards and they will decide to set a fee.
    
    I know in NH there is a small fee, around $2 for the courses I have 
    found.
    
    --Bob
    

Dave
    >    	All instructors in Mass HAVE TO HAVE that attitude. They are 
>    all volunteers. They teach the classes because they believe there
>    is great value to be had from the ethics and safety they present 
>    in their classes. 
     
      No they don't have to have that attitude and I've met some that
    don't. Some do it because it's a big ego trip for them. Like the guy I
    talked to the other day,  I have no doubt that he has making $$$$ in mind.

    >There are too many hunters out there with
>    questionable ethics and practices to have the youngsters, or folks
>    of any age, starting up in the sport learn by example.
    
     I agree that H.E is good. So isn't Driver education. Go see how much
    that cost and it isn't mandatory other than the fact that you'll pay
    more for insurance without it.

    >	I get the impression you think that somebody is making money,
>    or could possibly make money from these classes. Reread my earlier 
>    reply. 

    Somebody could and is planing to make money. Wait til they put
    mandated regulations on certifying instructors which only the
    politically connected can get certified. 

    >All the services provided are FREE. All the student has to 
>>    do is show up, pay attention, read the material, show a good attitude
>    and pass the test.
    
    The way it would stay if it weren't mandated. Sadly it will rapidly
    change. Government rarely keeps things from turning into a bureaucratic
    nightmare.

    OH well, maybe hunting would be better off being only for the elite
    few ?     	

    Today is cynic day. ;);)
     Jim

    
    When I took my courses the Hunter Ed. course was $2 and went for 8
    weeks two per. At the end was a written test,practical on gun handling,
    and a shooting test for safeness on the range and under fire. One
    person failed the test due to shooting the wrong target in the range.
    My Archery Ed. course was FREE and went for 8 hours one whole day,
    with written tests and and an obsticle course that you could shoot at
    targets if you brought your bow.
    
                                                         Guy
    

    so, whats the scoop, any takers out there, to teach a hunter safety
    course in one of the plants... ???
    
    Fra

    Geez ......Colorado has had manditory Hunter Ed. classes for years.
    and no horror stories here.  The cost is $10.00 for a 12 hour class.
    Yes the state mandates course content and certifies the instructors,
    but nobody is makeing big buck out of it.  The ten bucks goes to
    pay for the class materials, and the range time.  All of the gun
    clubs offer the class, and most of the better sporting goods stores
    also sponsor the classes.  All in all a very good arangement all
    of the way around.  BTW Colorado also mandate hunter orange during
    rifle seasons, this we will save for another topic eh?
    
    JoeJ
        

    I'd be willing to DONATE $100 bucks to send 10 people to 
    HE in Massachsetts ANYDAY - or anywhere I frequently hunted 
    for that matter... 
    
    Erik_who's_yet_to_see_what_northwest_hunting_is_like...

    
    
    Great idea .9 and .10.   I'll be watching this file to see if an
    
    instructor run's a course at a Dec location. 
    
    Eric, I don't know about 100 bucks. Kinda steep for me and chances
    
    the 10 in the state who need it most will probably get the least
    
    out of it.  Tell you what, though. How about we all chip in a .25
    
    cents each and cover Jim's tab so he'll quit whinning. (only kidding
    
    Jimbo)
    
                                  HE is Commonsense
    
                                           Joe C
      

   Re: HE courses at DEC facilities
   
   I'm an HE instructor in Ohio.  I would love to hold a course at the
   DYO facility.  Nice room,  AV equipment, etc.  There's just one small
   glitch.
   
   How did the instructors get firearms into the Digital facilities? 
   This is one of the "immediate termination" transgressions.
   
   
   Re: Fees
   
   I am saddened that some states charge fees.  Ours are all free. 
   State picks up tabs for materials, films, etc.  All instructors are
   volunteers.
   
   
   Re: Reasonable?
   
   Yes and no.  HE is good for every hunter.  Some grandfathered hunters
   in Ohio would greatly benefit from the course.  Refreshers every 10
   years or so would be nice also because new information becomes
   available.
   
   Badness:  The danger is that HE will be required.  HE has to be
   through state approved courses.  State usually provides the
   materials.  All a state has to do is pass the mandate law and then
   defund the training.  This tactic has been used for other issues.
   
   Question: Will they still accept an out-of-state certification?

    I don't think so.  The states know on which side the toast is buttered.
    In Colorado the state pulls in millions of dollars from hunting.
     Not only the Dept. of Wildlife, from license fees but also hunters
    bring in millions of "Tourist" dollars to small local economies.
     Hunting in Colorado is big bussiness!!!!!!! 
    And HE is mandatory.
    
    
    JoeJ
    
    Bow Season opens in 4 days, I open in 10.
    
    

Colorado does accept out of state hunter safety certifications.  If
it didn't, it would just about cripple their game management program.
There is (or was) some exception to California certifications, but
I don't remember the details.

Also, if you move into Colorado from another state, and have that
state's hunter safety certificate, Colorado will issue you a
Colorado certificate.  All they have to do is verify the out-of-state
certificate.

Jerry

    Well, I just called the Mass Fish & Game Dept. The H.E. instructor that 
    I mentioned in the base note is full of !(#**$@. There is no mandate for 
    hunter education in Mass.. There is no mandate for 1993 either and they 
    don't know if or when it will become mandated. 

    Now Cappucci won't loose sleep worrying about that $.25 he was
    gonna donate for me.;);)

     Jim 
           

    I believe that persons under 18 need to have a hunter ed course
    in order to gun hunt in Mass. Other than that, it isn't necessary.
    *However*, I attended the NBEP archery safety course and would
    highly recommend it, even if you're not planning to hunt in
    a state which requires it. Lot's of valuable info.

    Minors between 15 and 17 must have a certificate of competency with 
    firearms as provided from the Mass Fish & Game. 

    This is not the same as a hunter safety program,...no ?


     Jim

      Our plant (BTO - Burlington, VT) is holding a HE course this
    year (again).  According to the note that was sent out to all
    employees in this facility, the course is sponsered by "Digital
    Security".  The instructor is a "qualified State Instructor".
    The course is open to all DEC employees and their family.  Children
    must be 10 years of age and accompanied by an adult.
    
      Not sure how it will be run, but I'll try to find out more info
    to post in here.  I assume there must be some type of weapon handling
    involved in this course, but not sure how they handle that on DEC
    property.  Maybe the shooting part is done off-site, but all the
    classes are scheduled for here at the plant (in the cafeteria).  It
    is 5 classes, 3 hours per night.
    
    -Ron-

   Re: Note 1181.26 by BTOVT::MORONG
   
�    The course is open to all DEC employees and their family.  Children
�    must be 10 years of age and accompanied by an adult.
    
   10 years of age?  In Ohio, we are not allowed to discriminate due to
   many things, including age.  It is not atypical to see 8 and 9 year
   olds in our classes.  Ohio almost had a lawsuit filed against it
   because a city facility where we scheduled a class set an age limit
   at 16 and over (without the head instructor's knowledge).  Our county
   Wildlife Officer had a fun time with that one.
   
   When I went through my Hunter Ed. Instructor certification course,
   our teacher related about one day when a blind man attended one of
   his hunter ed. courses.  We can't say "No."  Almost an hour of my
   certification course was how to deal with anti's who register for
   your course.  You can't deny them access, but you can set rules of
   conduct and have the police boot them out if they break them.

 Does that mean there is no drinking age limit, or minimum age to drive in
Ohio? Otherwise, how do you know to which things age limits may be applied?

    
    re .28
    
    Good point.  Let's be reasonable.
    
    Kevin

RE: .10

 It was me that taught the hunter safety course at the NIO plant in 1980
or thereabouts. :-)

 Had the distinction of teaching the largest number of students attending a 
single hunter safety course to date in the history of the NH Hunter safety 
program. NH F&G was impressed. :-)

 With the blessing of NH State Police and Corporate security, getting firearms 
into the plant was no big deal, although it did cause some consternation to 
those who do not believe in the right to keep and bear arms. :-)

 Best part of the course were the taxidermied animals brought in by F&G that 
were left in the cafeteria while the course was running. Especially the full 
body mount deer. The bambi lovers really liked that one.. :-)

  Corky  (ex-Chief Hunter Safety Instructor, State of NH.)

    
    Corky,
    	re: .30
    
    	  with the blessing of NH State Police?????  I can understand
    	Corp Security but why did the NHSP have to give the ok?
    
    	Phill

 Because DEC Security flat said _no_ so I had to contact the State Police, 
(and fish and game) for backing concerning it.

 I think it was the first time ever that any firearms were ever in a DEC 
facility so naturally NIO security had to get Corporate involved which mucked 
up everything big time.. 

 The state police and fish and game helped quite a bit otherwise I don't 
think DEC would have sanctioned the course to be held on DEC property.