Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

	Ricardo, never having been to Afrika (maybe I should not
	write this :-) but having read the opinion of countless
	experts (hopefully a bit more knowledgable than Yours
	truely :-), my humble opinion is, that for calibers you probably
	could not have made a better choice. I suppose one could
	label your two cartridges: "the killer" and "the gentleman".
	Unless you go to the .500 A-Square (Alphin's child as you call it :-)
	the .460 WHBY is the top of the line in knock down power -
	if *you* don't get killed by the recoil there is a much larger
	than average chance that whatever you hit will... But I suppose
	that even with a cannon, bullet placement is of the utmost
	importance. As for the .416 Rigby, it managed to achieve almost
	legendary status with bullets of 400 grs at about 2300-2400 fps.
	Ross Seyfried (former IPSC world champion and present gun writer,
	and African professional hunter - explanation superfluos for
	readers of G&A :-) thinks this "gentleman" cartridge is all
	you will ever need. In fact I have never read a single line
	claiming that the .416 Rigby was not an "ideal" chambering for old
	Syncerus caffer - including such African experts as Boddington and
	Carmichael. No, I think the "killer" and the "gentleman" is
	as good a choice as you can make.

	Bolt or express? Well either will do, if as you pointed out
	chambered for the right round. If you wanted an express rifle
	then a cartridge choice such as the .600 Nitro Express would
	probably be the #1. But as you say, as much as express rifles 
	are a part of the African hunting myth, bolts are a *lot* 
	cheaper. As many people have pointed out, most African hunting
	was and is done with bolt actions. The express rifle was really
	always limited to the territories previously governed by the
	British - the rest of the world used Mausers and Mauser derivates.
	But, hell, if you could afford an express rifle... The main
	thing in rifle selection must be dependability - will it
	*always* go "booom" when you pull the trigger? Otherwise
	it could get very interesting to dig out a wounded Cape Buffalo
	from a thicket!

	So there is my "unforgettable, "expert" opinion :-)

	Now a question: Where, when and for how long are you going?


							- Mike

    	Ricardo,
    
    	I to have never been to Africa, but if I was I would chose the gun
    used by the guide. They deal with this Syncerus Caffer Caffer all the
    time. From what I've read and seen in videos, all have been using the
    time tested Double rifle in the 375H&H and 400 series cals. They like
    the real fast second follow up shot. You just can't work a bolt fast
    enough and semi-autos aren't allowed. The double gives you two shots as
    fast as you can aim and pull the trigger.
    
    	Fo course if you place the bullet "just right" a 22 long will do
    ;^)
    	Steve

	Actually Steve, I am sure that most African guides 
	hump bolt actions around. But the double is part
	of the African hunting myth - so for a video about
	the great white hunter... Not that doubles are not
	great - they are, but they are also costly, AND
	to work the most reliably they require rimmed
	cartridges. That is why the European (who are 
	crazy about break top long guns, double rifles or
	combination weapons) for many calibers have a 
	rimmed and a non-rimmed version. Example: 7x64
	and 7x65R (rimmed version of the 7x64).

	Let me cite some contemporary expertise on Afrikan
	hunting (also because this is quite funny):

	Jim Carmichel in his "Book of the Rifle" writes:

		EXIT THE DOUBLE ENTER THE BOLT

	"The professional hunter on one of my early safaris was a 
	very proper type in the old Kenya tradition whose accent 
	was as crisp as the tips of his mustache. His Land Rover
	was polished daily, and the creases in his hunting shorts
	were unfailingly starched to parade-ground sharpness. As
	you probably guessed, his rifle was a beautiful Holland
	double. It was a .500/465, If I remember correctly, and it 
	looked as new as the day it left London. Not once during
	our safari did he find it necessary to fire his rifle, which
	caused him great relief because of the high cost and
	scarcity of the ammo.
	Another time I hunted with a tough little bandy-legged
	Angolan Portuguese who carried a cheap Spanish-made sidelock
	double in .450 Nitro. The sears must have been badly worn
	because every time he fired the right barrel, the left barrel 
	went off of its own accord. Despite my suggestions, he never
	caught on to shooting the left barrel first or loading only
	one round. He shot this rifle at everything from Guniea fowl 
	to elephants. KA-BOOMBOOM it would go, and the little
	Portuguese would stagger backwards.
	These two chaps constitute exceptions that prove the rule.
	They were the *only* professional African guides with
	whom I have hunted who actually carried double rifles, 
	popular myth not-withstanding." (I like the story about
	the Portuguese :-)


	Craig Boddington writes in his book "From Mt. Kenya to the
	Cape":

	"In days gone by, the double was the odds-on choice. I personally
	like a heavy double very much. They are fast, give an instant
	and reliable second shot, and the old cartridges such as the
	.470 or .450-3 1/4 offer the same outstanding performance they
	always did. However, I must admit that the nostalgia of the
	double is a very large reason for my preference for them. In 
	use, the bolt action is every bit as good, in some ways better,
	and the cost of the very best bolt action is a fraction of the
	cost of even a plain, much-used double today.
	Even for the professional hunters, the guys who actually have
	the use for a charge-stopping rifle, the bolt action has become
	the most popular choice. In all the African hunting that I have
	done, I have seen a total of seven double rifles in use." ....
	(explains who used which double) ...  "And that is it for doubles.
	In the same period of time I've seen innumerable .458s, a few
	.460 Weatherbys, a couple of .416s in various wildcat configurations
	as well as the original .416 Rigby, a couple of .404 Jeffreys, and
	a few other wildcat big bores".

	Whew! That was a lot of writing. But is it not fascinating all this
	African business? I am ready to go tomorrow... Ricardo, how
	about hitching a ride ... :-)


							- Mike

My granfather used an eight gauge double and a 600 Ross Express double for his
hunting.

I fired the eight gauge once, and it made my shoulder hurt :-)

There is no doubt that a double can deliver the second shot faster than a bolt
but with the heavy recoil of these rifles I suspect the more important factor 
is that you can fire the second shot without moving your hands.

The backup should be a second hunter (or guide) with a heavy bolt action.

As for cost, I wonder about the possibility of getting a custom barrel set for
a Valmet 412S double in something suitable? (I have no doubt that though they
call the 9.3x74R a 'big game' cartridge they have in mind more elk hunting
than cape buffalo).

/. Ian .\

    Well,
    
    sorry for the long time of silence but the italian winter has been
    really cold, and I taken advantage from im to take the wooping cough.
    
    Anyway! still I'm alive and convinced in participating to a new
    safari. All that despite the last world's happenings that are warming
    the environment.
    
    To answer to the ....... 891.1 note, I count to go this year  in the
    large area of Gado Cabo, very close to the Tanzania boarders, at
    the South of the famous Selous Game Reserve. This area is still
    very rich of wild animals, particular Cape Buffalos Blue Wildebeestes,
    Waterbucks lions and ..... (for the pockets full of money)...big
    tuskers. Of course my target is the Cape Buffalo coupled with a
    waterbuck.
    
    About the 460 Wby Mag. recoil, I'd like to reduce the worries about
    it. It's not so terrifying, despite the over one ton per meter of
    the muzzle energy. The muzzle brake of the Mark V is vell designed
    and, before of the real muzzle brake there's  a kind of compensator
    made by small holes, that remember the Mag-Na-Port often used in
    big hangun revolvers. So the recoil is ..... powerful !!!! but not
    so hard like you can suppose. It's...... like a loong puush but
    soft push on your shoulder but flate and the "mag-na-port" reduces
    the 80% of the rotation. I found harder the recoil of a 8x57 shot
    by a Kar98 Mauser because, despite smaller is more "crude". About
    the 416 Rigby ...... no comment! It is my preferred bore for waterbuck
    or blue wildbeest. As I've already told it collects the best qualities
    of the 375H&H and of the 458WM: flat trajectory and good muzzle
    energy.
    
    I wonder why hadn't the success of the other cartriges.
    
    Riccardo
    

	Riccardo, so it's Tanzania this year for you, eh?
	Selous Game Reserve sounds pretty adventurous!
	From your note it sounded like you had not booked
	a hunt for cats - so presumably you did not have to
	meet the 21 day minimum duration? How long will you
	actually be going for? Are you going alone, or with
	a friend/wife... Who is the safari company that you
	have booked with? Where did you go the last time?
	Sorry, I know that was a lot of questions :-).

	Where are you based Riccardo, Milan, Toriono? Your
	nodename sounds like you work in Italien marketing.
	Is that correct?

	RE: .416 Rigby. Well, for a long time after the
	second world war it was pretty difficult to come
	by ammunition for the Rigby. Besides, the .416
	requires a true magnum action - and I suppose
	that is why no factory produced rifles were chambered
	for this round for a long time. The period after
	the second world war was the period of the short
	magnums - cramming even large bores into 30-06
	length actions. Now those new rifles may not have 
	been as nice nor as powerful as what could be had
	in pre-war calibers, but they were readily available,
	a lot cheaper and so was the ammo! The .375 H&H on
	the other hand was not really a big bore, so it 
	had access to a more general market -big bears, elk, 
	moose... Besides, the action required for the .375 H&H
	was not a true magnum. It was really only with the
	advent of the Weatherby rifles (both in their
	Shultz & Larsen disguise and the Japanese Mk V action)
	that a rifle was chambered for true magnum length
	calibers (378, 460). These days, the big bores have 
	started a great comeback, hardly a day seems to pass
	by without the announcement of a new magnum action.
	And what is more, the manufacturers have gotten their 
	eyes open to the "classic" rounds such as the .416 Rigby.
	From that point of view, we really are priviledged!

	Cheers.


							- Mike

    Re .6
    
    Well, sorry for the delay but the Gulf War has compelled me to re
    analize my plans.  Actually the organization who's arranging my trip
    is planning again a new trip. So, not yet I know what will be the best
    moment to tackle the big trip. Meanwhile I've enriched my rifle
    collection with another Weatherby that I count to use for the blue
    wildebest and waterbuck. It's a 300 Wthby using a Swarovski 3-12x50
    scope (Weatherby alias Redfield scopes are too much delicate.... this's
    my felling after that the 460 hasdamaged its with the recoil). About my
    trip I count to go with a friend of mine (he likes too Buffalos... not
    cats) who's a beatiful Express   made by Perugini & Visini in 458WM.
    Our staying should about 12 days long including the staying.
    
    Yes! I live in Milano where there's a beatiful team fond of rifles
    and... of course big game and... of course, i work in Marketing.
    
    I'll provide more detailed info as my trip will be defined.
    
    Cheers
    
    Riccardo