Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    For the most part what you describe is normal Behavior.
    
    I like force break training however I do reccommend a pro.
    
    It usually takes less than a month and maybe as little
    as a week.
    
    I would not jump into this so quickly either.
    
    Every dog is different and ever breed is different.
    Personally I would try other avenues First. There are still lots
    of things you can be teaching the dog... 
    
    I main concearn is not to break the bond that you have developed.
    Force work can put a strain on it.        
    
    Have you read other notes in this file on the very same subject?
    
    I am no expert and never claimed to be join a club do a lot
    home work and you will find the correct answers.
    
    Bear

    
>    I like force break training however I do recommend a pro.

    How do you decide whether to force break or not? You mention
    that you like to have your retrievers force broke, when do
    or did you have it done? What are the benefits that you see
    from it?
    
>    I would not jump into this so quickly either.

    I agree, I did want to look into it and get others opinions
    and feelings on the subject. Also the timing of force breaking,
    when is the ideal time?
        
>    I main concern is not to break the bond that you have developed.
>    Force work can put a strain on it.        
 
    This is a good point, which I hadn't considered.
       
>    Have you read other notes in this file on the very same subject?

    Yes, just now if fact, I found some notes in the raising gundog note.
    
    
    To answer your question in the reply title, "what breed?" she is a
    five month old golden retriever. She comes from field trial stock and
    is full of energy and enthusiasm, lots of both. She is a great dog
    and a lot of fun. Most important, mom and son love her.
    
    As far as clubs are concerned, is it too early to join a retriever club?
    
    Thanks,
    Michael
    

    All tho' I'm no expert,  You might try getting a 35-40 ft. check cord.
    Get the pup real interested in the dummie, and "PLAY" fetch; If she
    doesn't respond to your hand gestures, quit "PLAYING".  This is when
    you start using the check cord, but never make the "GAME" into
    something that she won't want too play anymore.  You have to instill
    into her that for you to "PLAY" these are your rules.  That is she
    gets the dummie and puts it into your hands, or you don't play anymore.		
    When using the check cord, throw the dummie within cord length, make
    her fetch, and as she is retrieving, you bring the cord in, essentially
    making her come to you.  Then make her sit and "DROP" the dummie into
    your open palm.  THEN LOTS OF LOVE'N.. If you have to "over do it " the
    loving, then do so.....If that doesn't work, get the book "Water Dog";
    the author escapes me, but it is a good book.
    
    
    Jeff
    

Richard Wolters has written several dog training books.

  Gun Dog    was (I think) the first, and refers to training pointing breeds.

  Water Dog  was written about training Retrievers to retrieve.

  Game Dog   is more recent and is aimed at multi-purpose training of an
             all around flushing/retrieving dog.

    
    By "force breaking" do you mean force training?  When I think of 
    force breaking, I think of breaking an existing problem, where force
    training is forcing a certain desired condition.  There is a
    difference.
    
    This past weekend I was involved in a Hunter Retriever Clinic, as an
    attendee...they talked alot about force training.  I was used as an
    example, since I was the only one there who trained only positive.
    The "experts" were surprised my dog has not refused to "fetch" on
    occasion.  Apparently a dog trained without force can sometimes refuse
    to "fetch"...I have seen this, but my dog is different. 
    
    They showed several examples of how force training is a bonus, and 
    illustrated to me its benefits.  However, it is my impression that if
    you want a good mix between a family/hunting dog the positive method
    (if your dog is real birdy...has that desire) works great.  They tried
    to see if force training would work on my dog (she's 5 years this
    month) and all she did was look at me when I pinched her ear...she
    squinted her eyes, looked at me with those eyes (which appeared to be
    saying) "hey....what are you doing that for...I'll get that dummy, you 
    don't have to hurt me".  I tried this for a while, with NO success.
    
    My next dog I will force train, but I'll start when it's young.  I do 
    believe that force training will provide more consistent results over
    a variety of dog personalities.  As someone else said, do it before
    your relationship with your dog is set in concrete.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Kevin
                                                       

      I agree with Kevin.  My current dog, Skeet, was not "force fetched".
    He has NEVER refused a retrieve.   He has placed in well over twenty 
    trials, both hunting and traditional field trials.  
      This not to say there is anything wrong with force training a dog.
    With some dogs it may be necessary.  I beleive that alot of the pros
    force a dog because it is easier to assume that they all need it.  I
    don't think that you do a dog any harm by forcing him, provided it is 
    done correctly.  Bottom line is that if you do it correctly your risks
    are minimal.  Find someone who can show you the right way.
    
    Jeff

    
    Thanks for all the replies. This has been really helpful.

>    By "force breaking" do you mean force training?  

    What I was thinking of, was force training to fetch. I hadn't thought
    about it quite as force training but I suppose that training to sit, 
    come or anything else with force or stimulus is force training.
    
>    They showed several examples of how force training is a bonus, and 
>    illustrated to me its benefits.  

    What were some of the benifits that were stated? Did the force training
    include more that force fetch?
    
    
    
    Is there a point went it becomes to late to force break a gundog?
    Kevin mentioned that his dog was kind of indifferent or inconvienenced 
    by the attempt.
    
    As far as clubs are concerned, are there any in Central MA. and is that
    where you found out about the retriever clinic, Kevin?
    
    
    re.-1
    
    Jeff you mentioned that Skeet wasn't force broke, would you have your
    next dog force trained?
    
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    Michael

      The benefits associated with force breaking a dog are as follows:
    
    - more reliable on retrieves
    
    - more enthiusiasm on retrieves
    
    - less incidence of hardmouth and or playing with bird
    
    - better pick-up
    
    - better delivery
    
    Basically what you are doing is conditioning the dog to get to the bird
    as quick as possible and to get back to you as quick as possible. If
    the dog is so inclined, it leaves no time for munching a bird, playing
    with a bird, or sloppy pick-ups.  
    
    "Would I force break my next dog?"  Yes, I probably would because the
    risks are minimal if done _correctly_.
    
    
    Jeff

    
Michael see my responses indicated by >>
    
    
    
================================================================================
Note 666.7                Force breaking your Retriever                   7 of 8
CLUSTA::VIRGIL                                       34 lines   5-JUN-1990 13:41
                                -< Force fetch >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Thanks for all the replies. This has been really helpful.

>    By "force breaking" do you mean force training?  

    What I was thinking of, was force training to fetch. I hadn't thought
    about it quite as force training but I suppose that training to sit, 
    come or anything else with force or stimulus is force training.
    
>    They showed several examples of how force training is a bonus, and 
>    illustrated to me its benefits.  

    What were some of the benifits that were stated? Did the force training
    include more that force fetch?
    
	>>The benefits were as Jeff stated.  The more reliable retrieve
	>>was demonstrated by having a dog (which had been previously
	>>force trained) to retrieve through a distraction.  The distraction
	>>in this instance was another trainer waving a trainer's whip.  The
	>>dog had to pass under the waving whip...it did not want to do this.
	>>First attempt the dog went around, second attempt with the ear
	>>pinch and the dog went straight through the whip...it was impressive
	>>to see the difference.
    
    
    Is there a point went it becomes to late to force break a gundog?
    Kevin mentioned that his dog was kind of indifferent or inconvienenced 
    by the attempt.
    
	>>I think there is a point when it becomes too late.  Like I said
	>>my dog was not/is not interested in feeling pain to initiate the
	>>fetch.  She's been through 4 hunting seasons without it, she knows 
	>>what she's doing.  And she has NEVER refused to retrieve.  As Jeff
	>>stated or implied, most dogs are not like this, and I agree that
	>>trainers always force train because it always works (if done right).

    As far as clubs are concerned, are there any in Central MA. and is that
    where you found out about the retriever clinic, Kevin?

	>>I'm from VT.  The club is the LCRC (Lake Champlain Retriever Club).
    
    re.-1
    
    Jeff you mentioned that Skeet wasn't force broke, would you have your
    next dog force trained?
    
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    Michael

	>>Good luck with your dog, and keep us posted.
	>>Kevin

    Hi, 
    
    I thought I would post a quick update on how I'm coming
    with my golden, now seven months.
    
    Well, I took a little from everyone' advise. 
    
    I went to the library and read everything I could find. The books from 
    Richard Walters, Charles Goodall, James Lamb Free, Jerome Robinson, and 
    a few from obedience trainers (I don't recall the authors right now). 
    I think the Jerome Robinsons book was the best, "Training the 
    Hunting Retriever", I bought this book.
    
    I also joined a retriever club, best thing I did. There was a training
    session this past Sunday. It was a big help, the people were great and
    very helpful. I think I learned more in 6 hours then I have in the past 
    five months about the suttlities (SP?) of training.
    
    The first retrieve she did at the training session was a disaster.
    She had never retrieved anything other than what I had thrown. So,
    she wasn't too sure of the bird boy who had thrown that dummy, and
    hey who are all these people standing around next to you anyway. She
    wasn't interested in bringing the dummy back to me when there was
    an audience. Or was it, sense there is an audience she was trying to 
    see just what she could get a way with....... We corrected that right
    away.
    
    Anyway, after help from few club members and some adjustment on my 
    part, she was doing great. I'm not sure how many retrieves she did 
    in the course of the day but it was a lot. We did singles in water,
    over water to land, back to back singles in water and land, open
    water singles. It was great. By the time we left and many retrieves 
    later, I couldn't believe the difference. The small adjustments on
    my part I think made the biggest difference.
    
    We both have a lot of work to do still, but she is doing great. We
    work at improvements each time out, and not for perfection.
    
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
    
    Michael

    Two months and counting...............