Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Jeff,
    	Why do you mention pointing breeds rather than others.  I have
    noticed in general that Training clubs are geared to pointers. 
    Is that because you can train them without shooting anything?
    I never really understood this.
    	Linda

    Linda,
     Flushing dogs generally require that you shoot birds over them.
    Pointing breeds can be trained to a greater extent by just firing
    a blank pistol.  By there nature pointing breeds don't require that
    the birds be killed. 
    
    Jeff   

    That's what I thought, but it doesn't totally explain why the clubs
    cater to the pointing breeds.  Flushing dog owners could bring their
    own pigeons or buy them from the club.  Is it a concern about gun
    safety, or a licensing problem or what?
    	Linda

>   By there nature pointing breeds don't require that
    the birds be killed. 
    
Pointing breeds can be trained without shooting their birds, but in my 
opinion.....

If you want a bird dog to point, back, retrieve and etc you have to kill.
The killing of game in front of a dog that wants to retrieve really brings 
out the character of the dog.  Except for English Pointer and Setters 
almost all other breeds require retriving and backing.  You just don't have
a complete bird dog without it.  The falling game is just to much for some 
dogs and they break.....I want a class dog, for those that just want a dog 
to point.....pointing breeds can be trained without shooting their birds.

    So does anyone know why training clubs don't allow you to shoot
    birds?
    	Linda

    
    	One reason could be that it borders on the legality
      of hunting/shooting regulations !!! One is not supposed
      to shoot 'game birds' out of season, which for a shooting
      preserve would be April 1 - Sept 14. The rules regarding
      the shooting of pigeons are a bit fuzzy to me, but I don't
      think it is fully defined as being above board (if you will)
    
    dave

      One reason could be that it borders on the legality
      of hunting/shooting regulations !!! 
      Another is safty and who is liable for injury.
      
      In some states, trainers have special licenses to shoot.  Most 
beginning work ( puppies or dogs with no bird knowledge) is done with 
quail, finish work starts with pigeons and usually finishes using several 
birds...quail, phansant and chuckers (sp, I forget).  My dogs never saw the 
last two if I could help it!!!!!

    Speaking of special permits for training, I believe N.H. requires one.
    Can someone explain to me when I need the permit and when I don't?  I
    assume I would need it if I were shooting purchased pheasants or ducks.
    Since there is no closed season on Pigeons (sp?), I don't see why I
    should need a special permit to shoot them over the dog.
    
    Do any of you know the details behind this permit?
    
    Thanks,
    Mark
    

     The other part of it is the expense involved.  When the birds are not
    shot it enables them to be used again and again.  By not shooting them 
    it allows the club manager to keep costs reasonable so that the average
    guy can afford to train.
    
    Jeff

    
    >               <<< Note 613.8 by CLUSTA::STORM >>>
>                    -< questions on the NH training permit >-
>
>    Speaking of special permits for training, I believe N.H. requires one.
>    Can someone explain to me when I need the permit and when I don't? 
    
    Mark,
    	You are right !!! NH does require a permit to use/release birds
    while training your dog. We had a rather lengthy discussion about this 
    at the last meeting of the GSP club I belong to. I believe it is a 
    minimal expense, but is required !!! I know that some of the folks 
    from the club who live/train in NH have been asked by wardens to produce 
    the permit when they were training their dogs.
    
    	I can get more info over the weekend if you like ??
    
    dave

    I'm gonna find out more about this. Why can't ya shoot pigeons ?
    If you raised homing pigeons you'd have the right to kill them as 
    much as you would if they were chickens.

    Also, Pat Perry used to run a school for training flushers like
    the superior Springer Spaniel, so is this really only for pointers?
    
    Also, Pat breeds Springers, so I don't understand the limitation.

    Jim

    
    
    re: .11
    
     If you read the Abstracts of the Fishing and Hunting regulations,
     In the area of PROHIBITED,  it states something to the extent of, 
     the taking of any species of wildlife not mentioned as having a 
     set season. I read that as saying; it is illegal to hunt (shoot)
     or trap pigeons. I do believe one can get a permit from the F&G
     to trap pigeons.
     
     Pat still offers his training class for ANY/ALL breed of hunting
     dog. I wouldn't think that Pat would only offer membership to 
     those of us who happen to own pointing dogs. However, if you 
     stop and think about the type of training a pointing dog requires
     to compete/qualify in trials and tests, those of us who own 
     pointing dogs probably would benefit the most from the resources
     a training club would have to offer (birds, silhouettes, other
     pointing dogs, other people training pointing dogs).

    
    I have my Brit at Pat's place. Pat took an unsocial, gun sensitive five
    month old dog and turned him a great hunting fool. Brit qualified in two 
    legs of his junior hunter title with two months training...not bad! Brit 
    is back at Pat's training for his senior hunting title. Also joined his
    hunting club and shot Quail at his place. 
    
    Bottomline is... Pat does a fine job in training all hunting breeds. 
    Friend of mine is taking his Lab out there.
    
     
    

    Dave, 
    
    I've been out of the office the last week, so I took awhile to reply.
    Yes, I would be very interested in any more info you have on when/why
    the NH permit is required.
    
    Thanks,
    Mark
    

    Sorry for not getting back sooner, but I only managed to find out
    this past week about using live pigeons for training dog's. I talked
    with Tony Wolski, who is an environmental Police Officer at the
    High Ridge Wildlife Management Area in Gardner, Mass. He said that it
    is illegal to take pigeons into the field and shoot them. The rock doves as
    they are called, are not legal game. I asked, well what if I raise
    homing pigeons, can't I kill them if I desire to ? He said yes,
    but you can't use them as live targets. Just as you have the right
    to put your dog down, but you can use it for target practice either.

    Jim

    Rock Dove????
    
    I'm speechless.
    
    What about parakeets?  Has anyone checked on the price of parakeets
    lately?
    
    /brett