Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    What's New for 1988
    ===================
    
    Search & rescue fee
         
         Search & Rescue Fund.  A new law requires that a 25 cent fee
         be added to the cost of hunting and fishing licenses to help
         pay for search & rescue operations for holders of such
         licenses in Colorado.  This fee is reflected in the final
         cost of the license.
         
    Some units have been added and boundaries may have changed
    
         Some Game Management Units have been added and boundaries
         have changed.  Please check the Game Unit Descriptions in
         this brochure.  These units apply for all terrestrial games
         species (except bighorn sheep and mountain goat).
         
    Antlered animals
    
         Antler length for determining legal buck deer, buck antelope
         and bull elk has been standardized to 5 inches.
         
    Additional licenses
    
         All doe licenses and any deer or elk license obtained in the
         "leftover" drawing are additional licenses.  The holder of an
         additional license may purchase a second license fo rthe same
         species - an antlered license.  The second license can be for
         any deer or elk rifle hunting season open to the use of a
         general season (antlered) license.  Only those persons who
         applied and were unsuccessful in the first drawing are
         eligible to take part in the "leftover" drawing.  Deadline
         for applying for the first drawing was June 1, 1988.  {oh
         well, better late than never. :-)}
         
    Again this year there are several brochures relating to big game
    hunting
    
         There is one brochure for Bear and Mountain Lion; another for
         Moose.  Deer, Elk and Antelope have two brochures:  one for
         drawing licenses (application dealine was June 1, 1988), and
         this one for the general open seasons.
         



                                   DEER 1988
                                   =========
    

    DEER LICENSE FEES (All Seasons)
    
    License        License        Search & Rescue          Total
                     Fee                Fee
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Resident       $ 17.00             25�                 $ 17.25
    Nonresident    $120.00             25�                 $120.25
    These licenses may be purchased at license agencies throughout
    Colorado.
    
    DEER SEASON DATES
    
    Archery (mountain units)
         August 13 - September 20
         
    Archery (plains units)
         November 5 - November 27 and
         December 15 - December 31
         
    Rifle
         1st Combined......October 15 - October 19
         2nd Combined......October 22 - November 2
         3rd Combined......November 5 - November 13
         


                                   ELK 1988
                                   ========
    

    ELK LICENSE FEES (All Seasons)
    
    License        License        Search & Rescue          Total
                     Fee                Fee
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Resident       $ 25.00             25�                 $ 25.25
    Nonresident    $210.00             25�                 $210.25
    These licenses may be purchased at license agencies throughout
    Colorado.
    
    ELK SEASON DATES
    
    Archery
         August 13 - September 20
         
    Rifle
         1st Combined......October 15 - October 19
         2nd Combined......October 22 - November 2
         3rd Combined......November 5 - November 13


                                 ANTELOPE 1988
                                 =============
    

    ANTELOPE LICENSE FEES
    
    License        License        Search & Rescue          Total
                     Fee                Fee
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Resident       $ 17.00             25�                 $ 17.25
    Nonresident    $120.00             25�                 $120.25
    These licenses may be purchased at license agencies throughout
    Colorado.
    
    ANTELOPE SEASON DATES
    
    Archery
         August 13 - September 20

    SEASON DATES
    ============
    
         SMALL GAME BIRDS
         
              Mourning doves.....................9/1 - 10/30
              Band-tailed pigeons................9/1 - 9/30
              Sora and Virginia Rails............9/1 - 10/9
              Wilson's (common) Snipe............9/1 - 12/2
              Chukar Partridge...................9/10 - 11/27
              Blue Grouse........................9/10 - 11/13
              Mountain Sharp-tailed Grouse.......9/10 - 10/2
              Sage Grouse........................9/10 - 10/2
              White-tailedk Ptarmigan............9/10 - 10/2
              Pheasant...........................11/19 - 1/2/89
              Bobwhite, Gambel's & Scaled Quail..11/19 - 1/2/89
              
         SMALL GAME MAMMALS
         
              Cottontail Rabbits.................9/10 - 2/28/89
              Snowshoe Hare......................9/10 - 2/28/89
              Fox Squirrel and Pine Squirrel.....9/10 - 2/28/89
              Abert's Squirrel...................9/10 - 2/28/89
              
         FURBEARERS
         
              Coyote, Opossum, Raccoon, Hognosed Skunk, Spotted
              Skunk and Striped Skunk............1/1 - 12/31
              
              Badger, Bobcat, Gray Fox, Kit Fox, Red Fox, Swift
              Fox, Marten, Mink, Ringtail and Weasels:
             ....................................10/1 - 3/31/89
              
              Muskrat............................10/1 - 6/15/89
              
              Beaver
                   private lands.................1/1 - 12/31
                   public lands..................10/1 - 6/15/89
                   

         WILD TURKEY
         
              Fall season:.......................9/17 - 10/2

    Did you see the hunting information section in the Colorad Springs
    Gazzette ? Sounds like all the herds, deer, elk and antelope are
    in good shape for the year. Hot damn... Best place for deer is
    list again this year around Craig.
    
    Looks they are also going to lift the antler restrictions on deer
    next year, in most areas.

    I have a copy of it if anyone wants to see it. I also got a news
    letter from Fishing and Hunting news, which shows the best places
    for deer and elk state wide.
    
    Happy Hunting,
    
    Mark

    ps. they also tell the figures on the amount of money hunting brings
        to the state. WOW...

    This came out of Sunday's paper.
    
     Wearing 500 square inches of fluorescent orange is required.
     Must include a vest or other garment above the waist as well
     as a head covering visible from all directions.
         Failure to do so: $50 fine and assessment of 5 points
    
      Having a loaded firearm in a vehicle, round in the chamber.
                           $50 fine and assessment of 5 points

    Hunters must retain evidence of sex of the animal. For big game,
    that can be the head with antlers or horns, sex organs or udder.
    Game Birds, head or wing fully feathered or a foot with visible
    spur.  
    Failure to do so: Big Game = $100 and 10 points
                      other game = $50 and 5 points
    
    Antler Point restrictions. Buck must have at least 3 antler points
    and a bull must have at least four point, where/when in effect.
    Taking a deer or elk with fewer than required points is considered
    illegal possession.
         $500 fine for deer and 15 points
         $700 fine for elk  and 15 points
    
    Accumulating 20 points in five years is subject to suspension of
    all license privleges for three years.
    
    Happy Hunting !!
    Mark
    
    ps. allowing a person under the age of 18 to hunt alone, also carries
        a $500 and I'm not sure how many points.

    	Mark, re. the firearms in car,, are you sure it's not just
    long guns?? I seem to recall that the law reads something like
    "all firearms other than handguns". I'm just curious.
    
    	George
    

    Just heard on the radio that there are an estimated 650,000 deer in
    Colorado this year.  I don't know how they got that number, but the
    state is expecting a very good year for deer hunters.  Good luck and
    chase one over to me!

    
    re .4
    
    And if you or anyone else knows, what's the reasoning for not being
    able to hunt alone if under 18?  To me this is incredible to say
    the least.  Talk about a society that doesn't trust its own youth.
    First it's alcohol then hunting....I was hunting with my brother
    since the time of 12 or 13, my brother wast 14 or 15.  We never
    had any problems as we took a high regard for safety and game laws,
    but this was ingrained in our family.  Can anyone offer any kind
    of logic that would allow a legislature to pass such (in my opinion)
    a demeaning law?
    
    The point system for game violations seems like the way to go, no
    messing around, and it is flexible enough to allow for an innocent
    mistake...like the double I got duck hunting this past weekend,
    it didn't put me over my limit, but it easily could have.
    
    Kevin

    re: .4 
    
    This is the first time I've ever heard of a point system for 
    game violations.  I think this is a great way to go.  I wish
    Vermont would impose such regulations.
    
    Re: .7
    
    >>> Like the double I got while duck hunting this past weekend...
    
    Ha! Ha!  You wish.  I do not believe that hitting 2 birds with
    one shot is considered a double.  I think that in hitting a
    double, there is some minor stipulation about hearing 2 bangs
    and seeing 2 birds fall.  What you did was hit a lucky bullsh*t
    shot.  (alright, so I was impressed just the same. I admit it)
    
    
    Dave

    RE .5  You are right. It is for a rifle or shotguns only not handguns.
    
    I don't what the deal is on being 18, but this one all most got
    me last year. My son and I got seperated and he went back to camp.
    The game warden came by and saw him with a rifle in hand and loaded
    with no adult. When I showed up he said, I just gave your son a $500
    fine and I have one for you too. I about died. Then he said he could and
    should have but he didn't and told me to check the regs.. Close call.
    
    I also heard that last year they had some problems with antler
    points. Seems they found alot a deer left laying. People shooting
    before checking the number of points. Next year there is not to
    be antler point restrictions on deer during any season.(we'll see)
    
    I wish I had a complete list of the violations and fines. Some
    are pretty stiff. like:
    
    Transporting illegally taken game results in the loss of the vehicle,
    the weapon, the animal and stiff fines(something like $1000).
    
    mark
    

	Colorado Division of Wildlife and Air Force Academy open
	deer season on academy grounds in Colorado Springs. (DOE ONLY)

 	Last Saturday was the first day of this special season. Eighty
	permits total where made available earlier this year. Saturday
	30 hunters hit the woods to thin out the deer population. Along
	with the hunters, 50-75 protesters showed up, waving signs, honking
	car horn and using bull horns to scare deer deep into the woods.

	These same protesters are seeking a court injunction to stop the
	hunts that are scheduled. A court injunction last week was overturned
	and last Saturdays hunt was allowed to continue. There are two
	more scheduled hunts, with hunters not filling their tags will
	be invited by on future dates. Ten deer where killed last Saturday.

	DOW estimates that there are 1500 deer on academy grounds, and have
	out grown the area. The DOW stated that 80 tags where given out
	this year as a trial, to see how the hunt would go. They also
	stated that the deer herd should be trimmed by 500 and that hunting
	the deer is the most economical way to control the herd.

	It is estimated that 100 deer are killed each by vehicles, on
	the academy grounds and near by I-25.

	The only thing that really P*SSED me off was the media coverage.
	On the TV news they interviewed the first guy out of the woods with
	his deer. The hunter did a REAL GOOD job of telling the story on why
	the population should be trimmed and where his money goes when his
        purchases hunting permits and supplies. But, they showed the deer 
        on the ground with the underside all cut open. Then in Sundays paper,
	front page of the local section, there was this deer AGAIN same basic
 	pose, with addition to milk jugs with frozen water inside the body
	cavity, it did explain why the milk jugs, (It was a warn day).

	We as hunters can not get photos like this published in our
	favorite magazine. Photos we submit, to be published, must not
	have wounds showing, no blood showing (preferred), and the tongue
	not hanging out.

 	I have written a letter to the newspaper, stating hunter ethics
	and the number of people they have possibily turned off to hunting
	because of ONE picture.

	There are alot of details missing above, but this is the basics
	without getting too long winded.

RE:< Note 222.10 by CSC32::WATERS "The Agony of Delete" >

> 	I have written a letter to the newspaper, stating hunter ethics
>	and the number of people they have possibily turned off to hunting
>	because of ONE picture.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It is quite possible that THAT is exactly what the paper and TV wanted to
accomplish by showing the blood and guts detail. 


Rich

    These hunts have made the news paper everyday this week so far.
    
     It seems that one of the protesters that where arrested last Saturday,
    was a employee of the Humane Socity, don't remember her title. She is
    the one backing the injunction to stop the hunts.
    
     In last nights paper it said that she has not filed for the injunction
    yet, becuase she is talking with other groups to get more information.
    What a concept, getting facts striaght before opening mouth (a second
    time)
    
    If the injunction is not filed by Friday, it's too late. Another
    hunt is scheduled for this Saturday.

    Mark

    The lady backing the injunction is Robin Duxbury, executive director
    of the Littleton based Rocky Mountain Humane Society.
    
    21 deer killed total last weekend 10 Saturday, 11 Sunday.
    
    These hunts are the first on academy grounds in 18 years. The deer
    population has doubled in the last 10 years.

    Tonight on the news, they had a story right before the Academy deer
    story about a bull elk and two cows.  Seems they got themselves
    stuck halfway down a hill and couldn't go up, nor could they go
    down.  Since getting a crane on top of the hill was an impossibility,
    DOW decided to let some hunters go in and harvest them.  You should
    have heard the "unbiased" report from the newslady (I don't mean
    this as a pejorative term, but it seems as though more women are
    vocal about their objection to hunting).  With a drawn sound in
    her voice, she described the plight of the elk.  "Unfortunately",
    she said, "the animals had to be killed".  She said it in the same
    voice that one would use when describing human suffering.  She didn't
    bother to interview the DOW about this.  Instead, she quoted them
    as saying that "they don't have the resources to be hauling out
    stranded animals".  It made them sound like heartless morons.
    
    					Dave()

    The Academy hunt went off again this weekend. The number killed
    was not available.
    
    The only difference from this week than last weekend was that there
    where anti-hunt protesters and a PRO-hunt group (4)(protesting the
    protesters).

    It's snowing in the high country.  Just in time for us 3rd season
    hunters! :-)  :-)  :-)

    What's New for 1989
    ===================
    
    The  Wildlife Commission has established season dates for deer, elk and
    antelope  for  the  next three years and retained the combined deer and
    elk season structure for regular rifle seasons.  Those dates are:
    
    Season               1989               1990               1991
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    REGULAR RIFLE
    Combined Deer & Elk
      First              10/14-18           10/13-17           10/12-16
      Second             10/21-11/1         10/20-31           10/19-30
      Third              11/4-12            11/3-11            11/2-10
    Plains Deer          10/21-11/1         10/20-31           10/19-30
    Antelope
      North of I-70      9/30-10/6          9/29-10/5          9/28-10/4
      South of I-70      10/7-13            10/6-12            10/5-11

    ARCHERY
    Deer & Elk           8/23-9/25          8/23-9/25          8/23-9/25
    Plains Deer          10/7-20 & 11/4-29  10/6-19 & 11/3-28  10/5-18 & 11/2-27
    Antelope             8/15-9/20          8/15-9/20          8/15-9/20

    MUZZLELOADING RIFLE
    Deer & Elk          9/15-25             9/15-25            9/15-25
    

    LICENSES WILL BE SPECIFIED FOR MUZZLELOADERS
    =============================================
    Muzzleloading rifle  licenses  are  now specified (bull or cow, buck or
    does).  there  will  be  no  either sex muzzleloading rifle deer or elk
    licenses  in  1989.   Hunters  will  need  to  make  a  choice  on  the
    application form.
    
    PREFERENCE POINTS NOT USED BY SECOND CHOICE DRAW
    ================================================
    If you draw a license on your second choice in 1989 you will not use up
    any preference points.  HUNTERS!  THIS MEANS YOU CAN APPLY FOR A SECOND
    CHOICE AREA AND DRAW A LICENSE WITHOUT  RISKING  YOUR PREFERENCE POINTS
    AND,  IN  FACT,  EARN A PREFERENCE POINT FOR  NEXT  YEAR'S  DRAWING  IF
    UNSUCCESSFUL FOR YOUR FIRST CHOICE.
    
    LOSS OF PREFERENCE POINTS
    =========================
    If you do not apply once within five consecutive  years  you  will lose
    your preference points.
    
    ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
    =========================
    The   Wildlife  Commission  has  made  some  changes  on  antler  point
    restrictions for  1989.   DEER:  Changes include eliminating the antler
    point restrictions for  deer in the third combined season (Nov.4-12) in
    certain Game Management Units  in  northwest  Colorado  and maintaining
    antler point restrictions during the  third  combined  season  on Grand
    Mesa units and in selected units  in  southwest Colorado.  Please refer
    to the map on page 16 for  those  units.  Antler point restrictions are
    in effect for deer and elk for the  first and second combined deer and
    elk seasons.  There are no long antler point  restrictions  for  elk  in
    totally specified units except in 76.
    
    UNITS 58 & 581
    ==============
    These units are now included in the regular three combined deer and elk
    season structure.
    
    CALIBER RESTRICTIONS FOR SMALL GAME
    ===================================
    Big  game  hunters  who also hunt furbearers and small game (including
    coyotes,  rabbits  and  blue grouse) should be aware that the following
    regulation will  be in effect in 1989:  it is unlawful to hunt any game
    bird, small game  mammal  or  furbearer  with a centerfire rifle larger
    than .23 caliber during the three combined deer and elk seasons west of
    Interstate 25 unless a hunter hold a deer or elk license for the season
    he/she is hunting.
    
    EXPERIMENTAL LATE SEASON
    ========================
    A special experimental season in a  portion of the Piceance Basin (unit
    22) will allow hunters to harvest two  doe  deer  on  one license.  For
    further information see page 11.

	Tags went out last Saturday, I made out.  My wife and I and two
	friends drew buck antelope tags.  Wife, myself, and friend drew
	cow elk tags, along with friends that drew 1 cow and 2 bull tags
	for same area.  I drew doe tag for same area as elk tag.  Got a
	week off scheduled for elk.  Antelope hunting permission secured
	and several groups of antelope spotted on property.  Got a couple
	of wood cutting/elk scouting trips to do over next couple of months.
	Oh yea, will have to load up some of those little .270 bullets too.

    
    .270 bullets for such a large animal as Elk.... for shame   8^)
    Don't you know you'll never kill one with those puny little 
    projectiles...  ;^)
    
    good luck in your scouting trips, and take it easy with the chain
    saw...  least we be in tip top shape come opening day. 
    
    fra
    

    re:  <<< Note 222.18 by CSC32::G_ROBERTS >>>

    I'm jealous.    All  I  got from this years draw was another preference
    point.  I'm up to 3!!
    
    +- Mark

	Antelope season 1989 was good to us.  My wife and I arrived
	at our hunting spot before sunrise and meet up with a couple
	of friends.  We decided where everyone was going and went our
	ways.  My wife, Vickee, and I went to the spot where she shot
	one a couple of years ago.  The was a herd of about 30 grazing
	in some winter wheat just over a rise about 600 yards from us.
	There was one very large buck and several smaller ones in the
	herd.  They acted like they were going to feed our way then turned
	away.  It was going to take a stalk through some stubble to up 
	on them.  I got behind the rise and closed about 200 yards of the
	gap.  The last 100 yards was crawling through stubble, sand burrs,
	and the like.  When I got up to the top of the rise, there they
	were spread out from 200 to 300 yards out.  The largest buck was
	at about 200 yards.  They never saw me.  One shot under his ear
	took him down like a rock.  The rest of the herd took off in a
	cloud of dust.  I got him cleaned out and hung then we looked for a
	buck for Vickee.  The herd ran out into the center of the property
	we were hunting.  The ranch owner came by about then to see how we
	were doing and collect his hunting fee, two bottles of Jack Daniels.
	He suggest that we come in from the other side of his property and
	send the antelope back over.  Two of us did that while Vickee and
	Ken spread out about 500 yards to block them.  Moose and I went to 
	the other side and drove the herd back.  They stopped about 200 
	yards out in front of Vickee.  She picked out a buck and dropped
	him with a shoulder shot.  That sent the herd south about 4 miles
	and that was all we saw of then until about 5:00.  My other friends
	never collected one.  
	
	Two more weeks and its deer and elk.

    Colorado?
    
    .270?
    
    /brett

RE:       <<< Note 222.22 by DECWET::HELSEL "Legitimate sporting purpose" >>>
                                 -< Details? >-

>    Colorado?

	60 miles east of Colorado Springs.
    
>    .270?
    
	With 130 grain boat tail.

	My antelope had 14" horns.  Vickee's had 8" horns.  The wind was
	kicking about 20 mph out of the north all day and it was cool.

	Gordon

	The Colorado D.O.W. is accepting applications for a post season
	elk hunt. There are 2000+ licenses available in about 24 different
	units, all west of the divide.  You have to send in your application
	along with $3.00 to get in on the draw.  If your, no group apps,
	application is selected they will notify you to come into a local 
	office to purchase a license.  The season dates are from 12/09 -
	12/31 for most units while some others are shorter.  I have copies
	of the applications on the wall of my cube, #E240 by pole 2/L2.
	Deadline for application is Nov 30. 5 PM at the DOW in Denver.

	I also have copies of the damage control applications.  These are
	due in by Dec 8.

	Gordon  522-4540

    -1 You know I have mine and it ready to be mailed. :-)

    I've been told that the applications for cow elk and doe permits
    will be available at the DOW on Monday (07-Apr-90).
    
    Clay

    Not to be picky, but I hope you mean 07-MAY-90.  Also, are they on a
    first-com-first-served basis, or does everyone who wants one get one?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jerry

    Yes, yes, yes, I screwed up the date in another notesfile too.
    It is indeed the 7th of May.  They should have enough applications
    for anyone that wants one.  Having your application drawn for a
    license is the trick!
    
    Sorry for any confusion,
    
    Clay

    Applications are due in by June 1, 1990. Drawing for limited permits
    is around June 27.
    
    They sure don't give you lot of time to think this over.
    
    Luck of the draw,
    Mark
    
    ps. Everyone know what they are going to put in for this year ?
        Looks like I'll be putting in for Antelope, Doe deer (with a buck tag
        available too) and muzzle loading for elk ( if this fails 
        I'll go archery).  Come on September !! no no no, I need a vacation
        first and some warm weather.

�    ps. Everyone know what they are going to put in for this year ?
    
    I'm going for Antelope and I *should* get a doe tag (I have 4
    preference points).
    
        +- Mark

    
    
     I got my ELK tag in the mail yesturday. Now the wait IS ON.
    If this year is anything like last year, ... 
    
    A little powder, patch, then a ball, cap and BOOM.
    
    Mark

    I got my Colo tags last week before I went on vacation. Looks like
    I hunt females this year (Cow and Doe).
    I can't wait.
    JC
    

    JC
    
    	You can buy a buck tag over the counter too.  
    
    Clay

    Colorado Ranked # 1 in revenue generated by the sale of hunting
    licenses in 1989.   $31,496,917   385,726 resident licesense and
    157,732 non-resident.
    
    #2 Pennsylvania   $26,064,845
    $3 Michigan        22,523,242
    
    Montana   $12,024,100
    Idaho      11,127,253
    Wyoming    10,304,088
    New Mexico  5,391,045
    
    Nationally 29,289,264 license were sold at a total cost of
    $400,402,099.
    
    
     WOW
    Mark

    Colorado hunters hunting the WolfCreek Pass Areas are requested by
    the Division Of Wildlife to keep an eye out for Griz. They believe
    they have found tracks from Griz and would like hunters to be spotters
    for them.   Report any sighting to the DOW.

>>           <<< Note 222.35 by CSC32::WATERS "The Agony of Delete" >>>
>>                             -< You skin Griz ? >-

I read an article in the GT which said the same thing.  Only it
stated that the Humane Society of America (or something like that)
had seen the tracks and asked the DOW to put out the word.  Apparently,
the DOW didn't take them too seriously because the article said that
the Human Society was disappointed with the DOW's help on this.  The
article also said that it was believed that the last Colorado Grizzly
was killed some 50 years ago, and even then it was believed that
there weren't any in the state.

It would be nice if someone could verify it, but I sure hope no one
gets too close.

Jerry

    
    	I read that same article.  I got the impression that the
    	Humane Society of America wanted to halt the big game
    	hunting in that area because *they* had found some tracks.
    	The DOW said no to halting the hunting but has asked hunters
    	to be spotters.  The Humane Society didn't like their response.
    
    	I'm pretty sure the last griz killed in Colorado was in the
    	70's.  At that time, it had been about 30 years since anybody
    	had seen one in Colorado.  The story I heard is that the bear
    	attacked a bow hunter who stabbed the bear to death with an arrow.
    	
    	Clay

    
    
    This seems to happen every year here in Colorado. I wish
    people would do a little home work before the hunt.
    
    This is a reprint without permission.
    
Denver - A 24 year-old hunter from Minnesota has been fined $4,100 for
illegally shooting a moose cow and her two calves in North Park this week,
Colorado Division of Wildlife officials said.
 Jeffery P. Fisk Of Chaska Minn., was hunting with his father on a ranch 
just outside the Colorado State Forest when he mistook the three moose for
elk and killed them, Said DOW officer Dave Croonquist. Fisk's father 
realized his son had made a mistake, and Fisk went to the ranch and called
authorizes.
 "That move saved him a bundle," Croonquist said. "If he walked away from them
and we caught him, it would have been a felony and (he would have) faced
fines of up to $137,000 and a four-year prison term."
 Fisk and his father were hunting Monday morning when the cow walked from
the forest into a clearing.
 "He apparently shot her, and when the calves followed, he shot them too.
I all, he fired 11 times," Croonquist said. "He told us he'd never seen
an elk or a moose before, and when he saw the animals, all he knew was
they were bigger than deer and he assumed they were elk."
 The shootings bring to eight the number or moose killed illegally in
North Park this season. Three more have been killed by vehicles this year.
Last year, 14 moose were illegally killed in Colorado, wildlife officials
said.
 Two of the moose killed illegally this year were shot with arrows. One of
the hunters was caught. The other case, in which a mature bull was found 
dead in a beaver pond near Gore Pass in September, remains unsolved.
 Only two hunters, including Fisk, have turned themselves in.
 In an unrelated case, six biggame hunters from Louisiana and one from 
Mississippi have been fined $10,331 for illegally killing nine elk Saturday
by firing from their vehicles.
 DOW spokesman Bud Smith said the hunters saw a group of elk near the road
in North Park and fired at the herd from their moving vehicles for six
miles.
 In all, 12 animals were killed, Smith said.
 "Other hunters in the area realized what was happening and called the county
sheriff, who notified us," he said.
 DOW officers confiscated the carcasses of three cows and six bulls.
 The men were identified as... of La. and Miss.

    
    
    	Well, I have recently moved to the Denver area from the Seattle
    area and am at somewhat of a loss. I was just starting to get the
    western Washington mountains figured out pretty well for hunting and
    now face a new challenge.
    
    	OK and I'm thinking about next year's hunt. I missed out on this
    year. I'm sure things here in Colorado are different than in Washington
    when it comes to hunting rules and regulations. I've heard a few things
    from mandatory hunter safety classes to having to draw for Elk tags.
    Neither of these things sound so great.
    
    	Would anyone care to summarize the context of the Colorado hunt?
    The rules. The regulations. What may be considered noteworthy. What
    animals have to be drawn for. Where you do it. Where you take your
    hunter safety class and on and on.
    
    	In Washington, you had to pick your weapon per animal per year.
    That is to say that you couldn't go Archery, Muzzleloader and Modern
    Firearm against the same animal type in the same year. What are the
    laws relating to this in Colorado?
    
    	Are there any groups from the Denver area  that go hunting or is it
    every man for himself? Where are the good areas to go?
    
    	Pheasant still open?
    
    	Dave 
    	    

RE: -1

Dave,    
    
    
>    year. I'm sure things here in Colorado are different than in Washington
>    when it comes to hunting rules and regulations. I've heard a few things
>    from mandatory hunter safety classes to having to draw for Elk tags.

	Hunter safety class is mandatory if born after 1949.  Contact the
	DOW for location of classes in the Denver area.  If you want to hunt
	a specified area or for a cow elk, you must get in the June drawing.
	Over the counter bull tags are avail for un-specified areas.  The
	applications come out in May.
    
>	Would anyone care to summarize the context of the Colorado hunt?
>    The rules. The regulations. What may be considered noteworthy. What
>    animals have to be drawn for. Where you do it. Where you take your
>    hunter safety class and on and on.

	See notes .1 and .17, the notes are old but the info is valid.
	Any cow elk, doe deer, or antelope permit must be drawn.  Bull
	tags in specified areas must be drawn.  Most specified areas
	are around South Park and the Denver area.  The applications
	come out in May and are avail at the DOW off I25 north of I70.
	Again contact the DOW in Denver for locations and dates of
	hunter safety classes.
    
>    	In Washington, you had to pick your weapon per animal per year.
>    That is to say that you couldn't go Archery, Muzzleloader and Modern
>    Firearm against the same animal type in the same year. What are the
>    laws relating to this in Colorado?

	You are allowed one elk and buck deer per year/per scheduled seasons.  
	There are five regularly scheduled seasons, bow, blackpowder, and
	three rifle.  You can hunt deer with bow or bp and elk by other method
	in another season, or vise versa.  If you choose to hunt a buck deer
	in one of the rifle seasons and want to hunt elk also, you must do so
	in the same season.  If you draw a doe deer tag rifle tag, it may
	be hunted in any of the three rifle seasons regardless of the season
	you hunted the buck.  Doe rifle tags are bonus tags.  
	
>    	Are there any groups from the Denver area  that go hunting or is it
>   every man for himself? Where are the good areas to go?

	Don't know about the Denver area, there are lots of us in Colo Spgs.
	Most anywhere in the western slope or along the east side of the
	divide.  There are lots of elk just up the pass from Denver.  There
	is a stat book avail from the DOW that will explain populations
	and locations and %kill and # of limited licenses.  If you get down to
	Colo Spgs look me up in CX03 and I'll try to be more specific.  There
	are just too many good areas.

>    	Pheasant still open?

	Till Dec 16 north of I70 and east of I25.  Till Jan 13 the rest of 
	the state.

	Gordon
    	    

    >Pheasant still open?
    
    Why?  You hate dogs.

    
     re: .40, Thanks Gordon. It looks like I ought to get some regs and
    read them. I'll be sure to look you up when I'm in the Springs again.
    If you guys have a good place to hunt, I wouldn't mind driving anywhere
    to meet up with you.
    
     re: .41 Brett, you're right, dogs are not one of my favorite creatures
    on this earth. But let it be known that if I were ever to get a dog, it
    would be a bird dog. It'd be great to get some use out of the thing...
    

	RE: -1

	Dave,

	The DOW has lots of good stuff that is free or minor charge,
	big game stats book, listing of DOW property, video tapes to
	borrow or buy, etc.  You should drop by the office in Denver
	sometime.  Yea, we can get together and set something up
	for next year and/or give you some tips.

	URGENT ITEM:

	Damage control hunt applications are out and must be post marked
	by midnight Dec 7.  They are only avail at DOW offices.    

	Gordon

    
    
    	Well, I.m scheduled for a Hunter Safety course in a couple weeks
    and hopefully will have that behind me after that and be fully
    qualified to apply for a license. I understand that the Big Game
    special permit applications need to be in by the first part of June.
    
    	The question I have is what areas and permits are good ones to go
    for? Being totally unfamiliar with the state, I could randomly choose
    but I'd prefer some help with this one.
    
    	I don't care where I have to travel in the state so long as there
    are some animals there when I get there.
    
    	I'd appreciate any pointers. 
    
    	Dave

	Dave,


re:
>   The question I have is what areas and permits are good ones to go
>    for? Being totally unfamiliar with the state, I could randomly choose
>    but I'd prefer some help with this one.
    
>   	I don't care where I have to travel in the state so long as there
>    are some animals there when I get there.
    
>    	I'd appreciate any pointers. 
    
	See my replies in .40 and .43.  I've all but told you where and
	when to meet us.  Get the stat book and applications, get in your
	car and get down here.  I'll be glad to help you out.  You can
	probably join up with my group if your schedule works with ours.
	There were lots and lots of elk where we hunted.  My DTN is 592-4540.

	Gordon

    	Dave,

	Why don't you do what I did?  Go to you closest DOW office
	and get all of the information you can.  Buy the 1990 hunter
	statistics book which Gordon referred to.  It costs $7.
	With this and a copy of the hunting regs, and a little desk
	work, you can zone in on an area.  Then, call the DOW and
	start asking questions.  They are most helpful, and if the
	local guy doesn't know about a certain area, he will probably
	give you the name and phone number of the DOW person who
	does.  They will probably even have printed information about
	the area in which you are interested and will send it to you
	free of charge.  Also, you can get Forest Service, BLM and
	USGS (Topo) maps that will help a lot.

	One thing that I've noticed is that some areas have high
	deer populations and fair to low elk populations, and some
	areas are just the opposite.  Also, some areas have open
	hunting (no special draw or permit required) for one species
	and require a special permit for the other.  You need to
	be aware of things like that.

	From what I've seen, the areas around Craig and Meeker are good
	for deer, the Flat Tops are good for Elk (that's where Gordon
	hunts), and the Uncompaghre Plateau is supposed to be good for
	both.  There are lots of other good areas, also.  I like unit
	521, myself.

	Jerry

	P.S.  If you're interested mainly in elk, you couldn't go
	wrong by taking Gordon up on his offer.

    
    
    	Your offer sounds great Gordon, I'll call you Thursday. I'll also
    hit the DOW as soon as I can and get all of the info in sight.
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	Dave

	Colo moose applications are out and are to be post marked by
	July 24 if you wish to get in on the drawing.

	Well the computer draw surprised me, but was good to me.  I got a
	buck antelope tag, cow elk tag in unit 49, and doe deer tag in
	unit 26.  Did not expect to draw an elk tag in unit 49, did not
	think I had enough preference points, only took 1.  The deer and
	elk tag are for second season and the units are about a 3 hour
	drive apart.  I'll just buy a buck tag for unit 49 and write off
	the doe tag.

	How did everyone else make out?

	A coupla cow tags for our fave spot (again).

	All over but the shoutin'.  ;-)

	AA

    
    	I drew a doe tag.  My partner drew a cow and doe tag.  
    
    	I have a few choices to make:
    
    		1)  Hunt buck and bull the same season as my
    		    doe tag.
    
    		2)  Put in for a cow tag in one of the main
    		    (2cd or 3rd) seasons.  Hunt a buck tag
    		    in the same season as the cow tag if
    		    successfully drawn for a leftover license.
    		    This would all be in addition to my doe
    		    tag for 2cd season.
    
    		3)  Put in for a leftover cow tag in one of
    		    the *special* seasons (ie a season which
    		    doesn't have dates the same as the main
    		    2cd or 3rd seasons).  If successful, I
    		    could hunt a buck tag in any of the 3
    	  	    main seasons, my doe in 2cd, and a cow
    		    tag in one of the special seasons.
    
    	Decisions, decisions........ ;^)
    
    Clay

    I was unsuccessful in my muzzleloading bull tag, expected that though.
    I'll get an archery tag, expected this.
    
    Did draw on my doe tag for the flattops, with 3 preference points.
    
    Didn't even put into for antelope, still have one preference point
    from last year.
    
    I think my neck is starting to swell-up and my head itches. Haven't
    pi$$ed on myself though :-).  Let the rut begin.
    
    I got suckered into taking 3 ol-boys from Missouri elk hunting with
    me this year. Wel'll see how that goes, maybe I'll get my elk before
    I have to take them out. I plan on hunting weekends before they show
    up.
    
    Mark

    
    
    	Seeing as how Mr. Roberts, as mentioned in .49, drew for unit 49
    it would seem that if I want to do any elk hunting, I need to find
    another place to go. If anyone is planning a general season elk hunt
    using rifle, muzzle-loader or archery and has room in their party,
    please let me know.
    
    	Otherwise, I'll probably just tag along with Gordon and go on a
    deer hunt.
    
    	Thanks!
    
    
    	Dave
    

    Just confirmed with a friend in Bayfield (East of Durango) that I will
    be able to join him in the elk/deer hunt beginning Nov. 2.  It's a long
    trip for me (Oregon), but he owns some land and "promises" a good hunt. 
    Anybody have any feeling for that area.  It looks from the map that the
    units will be 75 & 751.
    
    
    Ken

    
    Ken,
    
    	I hunted near there once.  We were ~20 miles north of
    	Pagosa Springs.  Absolutely beautiful country (and
    	tough to hunt where we were).  That area is prone to
    	some heavy snowfalls so be prepared (Wolf Creek Pass
    	Ski Area usually builds up to a base of ~140"!)  I
    	would advise taking tire chains.
    
    	As far as elk go, that part of the state has a good
    	population.  You're lucky to be able to hunt on
    	private land.  The public areas have alot of pressure.
    
    Clay

There was a small article in the Gazette-Telegraph (the local Springs
newspaper) about the Western Sportsman Association (WSA).  The WSA
is one of those hunting clubs that charge the members an entry fee
and an annual/monthly fee.  In turn, it locates and leases prime (supposedly)
private hunting land which it makes available to its members.  There
is some sort of application process (I guess) that the members must
follow to select the particular property they wish to hunt.  Currently,
according to the article, the sign up fee is $1500 and then there is a
monthly charge of $30.  This sounds a lot like the now defunct American
Sportsman Club.

Anyway, according to the article, local members have been experiencing
difficulties in reserving properties.  There is a local office which
they call for this purpose.  However, no one has been answering the
phone for a while.  The article didn't just come out and say it, but
it sure left the impression that the WSA was in big trouble and that
the members would probably be left out in the cold.

Does anyone have any more information on this?  Has the WSA gone belly
up?  Are there any local members who read this who can shed a little
light?  Also, what do you think of these clubs in general and WSA in
particular.

I used to be a member of the American Sportsman Club, and left it
in disgust after about 3 years.  All I saw was that they over-hunted
all of their properties and drove up the price of hunting.

Comments?

Jerry

    Ken,

	Those units have experienced over population and there were alot
	of cow elk tags given out down there this year.  In fact unit 75
	has 450 left over and unit 74 has 754 left over.  These tags are
	first available to people that were in the first drawing and then 
	the left overs after the second draw are usually sold first come
	first served.  If interested call the DOW (303) 293-9106.
	The stat book shows those areas to have an approx average success
	rate of 30%.  I too know guys that have hunted on private property
	down there and have done very good.  Third season had the best 
	success rate.

Gordon

RE:        <<< Note 222.56 by CSC32::J_HENSON "What is 2 faced commit?" >>>
                       -< Western Sportsman Association >-


Yesterdays paper reported that they were able to contact the lawyer that
"used" to represent the club.  He reported that WSA was in trouble with
the IRS, and a couple of banks, and that he no longer represented them.

I for one am glad to see these clubs fail, but I'm sorry for folks that have 
lost money to them.  

    
    
       Sorry, but I felt I had to delete the note that was here.  
    
     Please lets not spread those kinds of rumors here.
    
    
    Thanks  -  Moderator

I caught this on the local TV news last night (Colorado Springs).  Didn't
see anything about it in the paper this morning, though.  Does anyone
else have additional information?

The Colorado DOW is reporting some problems with Elk becoming addicted
to the Loco Weed.  Apparently, they eat it and become addicted.  It
screws them up to the point where they won't drink anything and eventually
die.  So far, about 60 animals have died from this near Loveta (sp?).
Also, the DOW expects to have to destroy about 8 more.

From the report, it sounded like a fairly isolated incident, and probably
not of any significance statewide.  However, there just wasn't a whole
lot said.

Jerry

	I have seen and had to destroy elk on loco weed.  Not a pretty
sight.  It happens every year.

	I just wish the elk knew better than to eat it.

	Jim  ;^(

    What is Loco Weed? Is that the official name of it, and what does it
    look like? What areas is it native to?
    
    Don

    marijuana

RE:          <<< Note 222.65 by SA1794::CHARBONND "Northern Exposure?" >>>
                              -< Cannabis Sativa >-

>    marijuana

	If that was the case there would be alot of dead deer in VT and CA.
	Deer really like pot and I understand that marijuana is the largest
	cash crop in those states, correct me if I'm wrong I don't mind.

	Locoweed, Any of several plants of the genera Oxytropis and Astragaus,
	of the western and central US, causing severe poisoning when eaten
	by livestock.

	It is a flowered plant.  Has short narrow leaves about 1 in. long,
	kind of a short bushy plant, when it flowers has many small white
	flowers.  It greens up early in the spring and thus makes it tempting
	to eat to animals.  Colorado has lots of it.  Unit 57/58 where I've
	hunted alot has lost over 300+ elk in the last 3 years to it.  It
	usually effects the younger animals worst.  I understood that area
	that Jerry referenced lost closer to 180 elk and that they may shorten
	or close the season in that area this year.

	Gordon

    Last weekend we had one bull bugle from about sun up till 8:30 in
    the morning and then he went quiet. He was a long way off though.
    
    We also found a fresh scrape, actually a DESTORYED tree, that
    still had that elk smell all around. We called from there and one
    walked in quiet, within 80-100 yards, but left as quiet as he came in.
    
    They're starting to talk back, with the cold front going through this
    weekend sometime it should get them start real good. The weather
    was pretty hot up there last weekend. It also didn't help that
    there were 45 cars in the parking lot by Saturday afternoon,
    and 1,000 sheep up there.
    
    Next week, Friday the 13th, we head up for a week packing in with
    horses. Should be prime-time calling. YESSSS !
    
    Mark
    
    ps. Jim, I know you've been out since your first outing, you had any
        bugle back ?

	We have seen some really nice bulls and my father missed 
a spike @ 30 yards on Monday.  THe exersize has been great, but the 
freezer is still empty.  We've only heard one response to bugling, 
but it's a start.  We are also hoping for much bigger and better things
next weekend.
	Jim (still in rut) Pedersen

    
    re .66
    
    Gordon,
    
    I don't think there's that much pot growing in VT.  In all my years
    of wandering the woods I've only walked up on 1 patch, this was last
    year.  Actually Maple Syrup is my guess at being the largest cash crop.
    
    I have read about other states though, CA and KY.  Too short a growing
    season up here would be my guess, there busting lots of people lately
    for having sizeable crops indoors though...
    
    just fyi stuff...
    
    Kevin

    Well damn ! I heard that the DOW flew over our hunting spot and
    dropped smoke bombs or some such to break up the elk herd. The
    people I talked with said that they havn't seen anything for at
    least the last two weeks.
    
    I thought they only did this when elk herds are in medows near major
    hunting camps. 
    
    Anyone know more details on this, like what they use or when ?
    
    It'll take more boot leather this year !
    Mark

	Todays paper reports that the DOW made a mistake and has about
	50 antelope permits available over the counter for units 141,
	140/147, and 143.  These are first come first served.  Unit 143
	includes part of the Comanche Grasslands and had a 78% success 
	rate last year.  

    
    	The waterfowl regulations *should* be available, according
    	to the lady at the DOW, on the 16th of this month.
    
    	Clay

    I called the DOW in Grand Junction and Hot Sulpher Springs to check
    on moving elk herds.
    
    They say that they don't do that before big game seasons. They said
    they do it on request of land owners to get herds out of hay fields.
    
    They said that it could have been the planes and helicopter that
    drop trout into the high country lakes. I guess a few hundred trout
    falling from the sky could look like smoke bombs.
    
    They suggested that if you see someone doing this, get the air plane
    number and call them. Grand Junction      (303) 248-7175
                          Hot Sulpher Springs (303) 725-3557
    
    I leave tomorrow, so I guess we'll just have to see what we can get
    into.
    
    >>>------->
    Mark

There was a picture in either Sunday's or Monday's Colorado Springs
Gazette Telegraph that showed approximately 150 dead antelope at the
foot of a cliff.  The caption stated that the entire herd had spooked
and ran off of the cliff.  There was heavy fog at the time.  The
caption gave the number dead at 150.  Also, it happened in extreme
northwest Colorado.  That's all the information I saw.  Anyone else?

Jerry

    The DOW said that this was a rare but natural phenomena. They got
    disoriented in the thick fog. It happened in Grand County.
    
    There sure was a mess of them piled up in the picture, Mondays paper.
    
    Mark

     For all you Colorado folks in this file. Recently when I was
    deer hunting, I stopped at a ranch that had let me hunt deer
    and small game a few years back. They would'nt let me hunt deer
    (disgusted with DOW's new hunting seasons, and few deer this
    year), but did try a hard sell on a crop damage antelope hunt.
    I've been out to this ranch in February (hunting bunnies) and
    counted over 250 antelope. Fairly hilly and easy to get close.
    Probably some real monsters (headgear) too. These are the antelope
    you see frequently while crossing southpark in the summer. Seems
    every year around late Oct/early Nov, depending on weather, these
    antelope migrate down along highway 9 and powerlines to winter
    primarily on his land. These antelope are big bodied ones too.
    The one I got in southpark 5 years ago seemed about 20-30 lbs bigger
    than some of the plains antelopes with much bigger prongs than mine
    (at andy's meat market/game processing). I would like to go, but
    already got lots of elk meat, and could'nt afford a taxidermy
    job (know I would get a good one)....Maybe next time.
     So if any of you are interested, the rancher's name is Nate Patton
    and he lives shortly after Canon City. Right on dirt road after skyline
    drive, that goes north into valley. Go about 2 miles. His home is
    off on a road (turn right, you will see his/wifes name plaque) that 
    goes down crosses a stream and is the white stucco house back behind 
    and to the right of others. The one I talked to was probably his daughter.
    
     50 dollar trespass fee/guaranteed kill 
     not sure how licensing/fee/drawings etc. work....????
     Think she said 33 permits and seemed anxious to get the word out.
     Hunt is soon.
    
    chuck
       

As some of the Colorado hunters already know, the Colorado DOW is
on the verge of making some hefty changes to the next three years'
hunting seasons.  I hope I get 'em all right.  They are

  1)  Reduce the deer season to three 5 day seasons.  Currently,
      there are three seasons which run 5, 12 and 9 days respectively.
      The plan it to still run the deer seasons at the same time as
      the elk seasons, but to cut off deer hunting after 5 days.  They
      would allow elk season to run as it does now.

  2)  Drop the point restrictions on bucks during the first two seasons.
      That is, any buck with a 5 inch horn would be legal during all
      three seasons.  They plan to keep the point restrictions on elk.

  3)  Either drop or cut way back on the spring bear season.

  4)  Make the fall bear season a drawing type affair.  That is,
      no more over the counter fall bear licenses.  You would have
      to apply for a license.

  5)  Reduce the archery deer season.  I can't remember just exactly
      by how much, but quite a bit.  I believe that it's the first
      part (in August) that they plan to eliminate.

As I recall, that's the major points.  I have seen a few editorials
really blasting the DOW for these decisions.  And, these will not
be set in stone until next week.  Next week the DOW will have public
hearings before making their decision.  The hearings will be held
in Denver.  That's all I know about the hearings.

I just spoke with one of the DOW biologists and asked him to explain
the department's reasoning.  Here's what he told me.

The reason for the reduced deer season is that the buck/doe ratio is
too low.  They believe that reducing the amount of hunting time will
help this.  And, yes, they are concerned about enforcing this.  Also,
they plan to allow some first season doe harvest in selected areas.

The reason for dropping the point restriction for deer is that it just
isn't working.  In fact, it may even be hurting (as far as producing
more big deer).  Oddly enough, the point restriction does seem to be
working for elk.  I asked why, and was told that they thought it was
a couple of things.  One, the majority of the elk harvest (the rifle
seasons in October and November) occurr AFTER the rut.  The deer harvest,
on the other hand, occurs before the rut.  I guess that more of the
big, desirable bucks are getting eliminated before they have a chance
to pass on their genes.  The other reason is that deer hunters are,
as a whole, more successful than elk hunters.  I was also told that
the point restriction on deer was not working in any of the other
western states.  

The reason for curtailing the archery season is "in the interest of
fairness".  They feel that if rifle hunters should have to put up
with reduced hunting time, then so should the archers.  There is
also some concern that the extended archery season (currently about
a month) is resulting in some shifting migrating patterns, and causing
deer to migrate to lower elevations earlier than normal.  They don't
really expect to see any real opposition to this, as most archers don't
seem to really hunt the August part of the season anyway.

The reason cited for the draw out fall bear season is the increasing
sow/boar harvest ratio.  Their magic number is 40% sows, and they
have been exceeding that for the past several years.  They want to
bring this back down below 40%.

Now for the one that really stinks.  The primary reason for dropping
or severely restricting the spring bear hunts is political.  There is
a group of people opposed to spring bear hunting because some mama 
bears are getting killed and their cubs are not likely to survive
without them.  The biologist I spoke with said that they are right
concerning the cubs, but that last year only SIX lactating females
were taken in the entire state.  This is because boars typically
come out of hibernation before the sows, and the season dates are
set such that it's over before the sows come out.  However, the
anti-spring-bear-hunting crowd has threatened to make this a
state-wide issue and bring it up as a referendum (everyone votes
on it).  The DOW has polled the non-hunting public, and determined
that a referendum would pass to ban spring bear hunting, so they're
pulling in their horns and are trying to ride this one out.  It 
stinks, but that's the way it is.

I know that this is a long-winded reply, but I felt that it would
prove to be of interest to some of you.  I'm not advocating any
particlar point, just sharing what I learned.

Jerry

    RE: .76
    
    Damage hunts are a seperate state wide drawings. You fill out a
    form and submit it to the DOW. If you are lucky enough to be 
    one of the first 200 drawn your name gets on the list. If they
    go through these 200 there is a drawing for another 100 or 200.
    They, DOW, start calling from the top when they get complaints
    from ranchers on crop damage.
    You are allowed to decline once if they call you, the second time
    you get moved to the bottom of the list.
    
    I don't know how going to see this person would get you a tag
    any other way. Anyone else know if there is a way around the
    normal damage hunt ?
    
    Mark
    I still have plenty of freezer space :-)

    RE: .76
    
	I called this guy.  He was very hard to understand so I didn't
	get out of him how he got these permits.  But, he has antelope
	licenses for sale for the going rate plus the $50 trespass fee.
	He only allows hunting on weekend days.  Sounded like it might 
	be guided, not sure.  Anyway he is booked up for the next couple 
	of weekends, only allows 3-5 hunters per weekend.  

	I called the DOW about this operation and they, here locally anyway,
	were not aware of this operation.  They do have applications for
	antelope damage control hunts.

	Gordon

I just talked to a DOW officer and got the following information.  As
far as I know, it's accurate.  However, reader beware.

The proposed 5 day deer seasons didn't make it.  That's because they
changed them to 3 day seasons.  That's right!  Next year, and I guess
for the next 3 years, there will be three 3 day seasons.  They will
start at the same time as the elk season, just end after 3 days.

Most of the state will drop the point restriction on deer.  There are
some exceptions, including Grand Mesa.  I forget what the other area(s)
are.  According to the guy that I talked to, the folks in the Grand
Mesa units feel that the point restriction is working, while the
game biologists in other areas don't.  So, they will now have some of
each and compare results.

The point restriction on Elk has been changed to 3 points (instead of
4) as long as the brow tine is at least 5 inches long.  Apparently,
people are having a hard time counting the points, but can see a
brow tine.

That's all I know about the changes.

Jerry 

I have a bit more information on the new Colorado hunting regulations.
In the previous reply, I stated that the deer season was going to
three 3 day seasons.  That's not entirely true.  That applies to
bucks only.  Holders of doe permits will be allowed to hunt for the
entire combined season.  That is, 5 days during the first season,
12 days during the second, etc.  The 3 day season is for bucks
only.

Another item I learned today concerned the spring bear hunt.  It's
still in at least for next year, but plans are to phase it out over
the next three years.  As I stated in a previous reply, this is due
mostly to political pressure and is not a "biological" decision.

If you wish to voice any complaints, opinions, suggestions or
whatever to the DOW, you can write to the following address.


		Wildlife Commission
		6060 Broadway
		Denver, Co.			80216

Jerry

    
    	Thanks for posting that Jerry.
    
    	Clay

Heard on the radio this morning that a herd of elk fell through the ice 
at Dillon Res. and died.  Many have frozen above the surface and the
initial report from the DOW was that they would have to stay till spring
thaw.  

RE:     <<< Note 222.83 by CSC32::G_ROBERTS "when the bullet hits the bone" >>>
                                  -< tragic >-

>Heard on the radio this morning that a herd of elk fell through the ice 
>at Dillon Res. and died.  Many have frozen above the surface and the
>initial report from the DOW was that they would have to stay till spring
>thaw.  

Correction:
Just saw the Rocky Mtn News paper.  It was at Green Mtn Res and about 30 elk.

    hmmm. interesting. Does that area have resident or wintering Bald
    Eagles? or will coyotes scavenge the carcasses? 

    reprint:
    
    Moose killed in drive-by shooting
    
    Walden - A young bull moose was shot and killed near Colorado Highway
    14 sometime early Thursday morning and the carcass left to rot, wildlife
    authorities said.
    
    The shooting took place about 15 miles southeast of here sometime
    between midnight and 7 a.m. Thursday.
    
    "The bull apparently was getting ready to cross Highway 14 to go into
    the Michigan Creek willows where it probably lived," said area wildlife
    manager John Bredehoft.
    
    "It was within a few yards of the road when somebody stopped and shot
    it once, wounding it," he said.
    
    The yearling bull made it about 50 yards to the tree line before it was
    finished off with another shot.
    
    "We got on the scene about noon and first thought it had been hit by a
    car and the driver simply put the animal out of its misery," he said.
    "But after we skinned it out we found no bruises, only multiple gunshot
    wounds."
    
    The shooting was the seventh illegal killing of a mosse this year in
    North Park, Bredehoft said.
    
    Last year, 15 moose were illegally killed in the area and the year
    before 14.

	Archery Deer and Elk		Aug 29 - Sep 27
	Muzzleloading Deer and Elk	Sep 12 - Sep 20
	First combined Deer and Elk	Oct 10 - Oct 14
	Second Combined Deer and Elk	Oct 17 - Oct 28
	Third Combined Deer and Elk	Oct 31 - Nov 8
	Antelope South of I-70		Oct 3  - Oct 9

	License fees are the same as last year.  During all deer seasons 
	only the first three days will bucks be allowed to be taken.

	Spring turkey season   		Apr 11 - May 24
	Fall turkey season		Sep 5 - Oct 4

	This year is you draw a turkey tag east of I-25 you can also
	buy an over-the-counter tag good for west of I-25, spring season
	only.

	The commission has required that all muzzleloading rifles be at
	least .50 caliber for all big game hunting for 1992.

	If you draw a doe permit for private property you will be able to
	take two deer, plus still hunt bucks in that or another season.

I caught the following on the local news a couple of nights ago.  Does
anyone have any more details.

 - The Colarado Wildlife Commission is considering a measure which would
   make it a misdemeanor to feed certain wildlife species.  Included
   are deer, elk, moose, pronghorn antelope and big horn sheep.  The
   reasons given are 
   
     - Feeding tends to concentrate these animals in certain areas.
       It also tends to concentrates other animals which prey upon
       them.  In particular, the increased number of mountain lion
       conflicts were cited.

     - As long as animals are being fed, they will stay in an area.
       This will result in devestation of the natural range in that
       particular area.

     - The diet that the animals eat as a result of feeding may not
       be a healthy one.  The result is that they are more susceptible
       to diseases.

     - The concentration of animals makes the spread of disease more
       likely.

 - The other measure being considered is whether or not to allow an
   issue on the November ballot (I think) that would ban contest hunting.
   My view on this is that it is targeted mainly toward the annual
   prairie dog hunting contest in Nutria.

I haven't heard the outcome of this.  Anyone?

Jerry

The local news last night reported that there would be an issue
on the ballot next fall regarding spring bear hunting in Colorado.
There's some "environmentalist groups (their words, not mine)" that
are pushing this issue.  Their claim is that spring bear hunting is
not "humane" because mama bears get killed, leaving their cubs to
die.  The news story also stated that the Colorado Dept. of Wildlife
said that only 6 lactating females were known to have been taken in
last year's spring hunt, and that it was estimated that 20 bear
"families" were killed.

The issue to be voted on is whether or not to allow spring bear hunting
in Colorado.

I have discussed this with some of the state's wildlife officers,
and their position is that the spring season is not a threat to
bear populations from a biological point of view.  The seasons
are currently set early enough so that it is mostly males that
get harvested.  The males break hibernation earlier than females.

The other part that surprised me is that the Wildlife Commission 
(not the same as the Wildlife Dept.) hasn't already rolled over
on this.  When I last spoke with someone in the department, I was
told that the Commission would probably drop the spring season just
to avoid having this issue on the ballot.  The concern was that there
was enough non-hunters in the state that the issue would pass, and that
it would set a bad precedent for all future wildlife management decisions.
Also, bear hunting in Colorado (Spring and Fall) does not have the
economic significance of deer and elk hunting.

Jerry

>>     <<< Note 222.90 by CSC32::J_HENSON "Blessed are the cheese makers" >>>
>>                       -< Spring bear hunt in jeopardy >-
>>
>>The local news last night reported that there would be an issue
>>on the ballot next fall regarding spring bear hunting in Colorado.

Well, according to the local paper, this is not quite the case.  A
citizens group will be trying to get this measure on this Fall's
ballot.  They will be having a petition drive in an effort to get
the required number of signatures (I believe that it's 50,000).
IF they get the signatures, then it will become a ballot issue.
So, if they knock on your door....

Jerry

    
    
    Is this correct that female bears can be taken regardless of young??
    I would be in favor of dropping the hunt myself.  This is wrong!!
    
    	Gary

>>          <<< Note 222.92 by WEDOIT::ROBERTS "raised on Anthracite" >>>
>>                          -< go with the fall season >-    
    
>>    Is this correct that female bears can be taken regardless of young??
>>    I would be in favor of dropping the hunt myself.  This is wrong!!
    
    	Gary,

	No.  That is not correct.  It is not legal to take female
	bears during the spring season.  At least that's the way
	I understand it.

	The problem is one of identification.
	How do you tell a female from a male?  Obviously, if there are
	cubs present, you assume it's a female.  I suppose in other
	circumstances you might see a physical difference (kind of
	like a nursing dog, I suppose).  All this aside, there are
	still nursing females taken.  I don't know if the hunters who
	take them get fined for breaking the law.  I am guessing
	that it's a judgement call on the part of the DOW officer
	in charge.

	Another part of this puzzle is the timing of the hunt.  Boars
	break hibernation earlier than sows.  The hunt is scheduled so
	that it is over before most of the sows come out.  And, it's
	been fairly successful.  Last year, only 6 or 7 lactating
	females were reported during the spring hunt (The TV lady said
	6.  The DOW officer I spoke with said 7).  The DOW estimates
	that a total of 20 bear families were killed last year during
	the spring hunt (this was reported by the TV lady.  Although it 
	is required that every bear be checked in with the DOW, I guess 
	that they figure some lactating females are taken and not reported.

	One more part of this is that, according to the DOW officer
	I spoke with, the taking of this small number of lactating
	females does not have any significant biological impact on the bear
	population as a whole.  From a wildlife management point
	of view, it doesn't really matter.

	So, as I've tried to point out, protection of nursing females
	and sound management of the bear population are factors which
	the DOW has taken into consideration.  It's not like they're
	just a bunch of Rambos who just want to shoot a bear.  They
	do know what they're doing.

	The part that's wrong with this whole picture is the notion
	of wildlife management by popular vote.  IF this becomes a
	ballot issue, then we are setting a dangerous precedent.
	Wildlife management is a science, and should be left to
	scientists (in this case, the DOW biologist).  If you take
	away their ability to influence management practices and
	do it by popular vote, who knows what will happen?  And, if
	we start voting on Spring bear seasons, what about the Fall
	deer and elk seasons?


	Jerry

	P.S.  The Colorado wildlife commission is already phasing out
	the spring bear hunt.  Over the next three years, the seasons
	will become more and more restricted.  At that time, they will
	re-evaluate.  This is being done largely because of public opinion
	regarding spring bear hunting.  The Wildlife commission does NOT
	want to see this become a ballot issue.

    
    
    	Thank you for the details Jerry.  I grew up in PA and the only
    	bear season is in the fall.  Seeing the Spring hunt and the fact
    	that sometimes a sow may be killed while nursing young bothers me.
    
    	I agree that the wildlife officials do know what's best.  If the
    	males emerge earlier than the females and they can predict the
    	time well enough then they are doing an exellent job. However, this
    	is what the anti's thrive on.  The fact that only 6-7 females are
    	killed is great stuff for the media to get a hold of.  I can imagine
    	the media wipping this up on a slow news day.
    
    
    	The Spring hunt phase out would be the way to go.  Along that line
    	wouldn't the game be better in the Fall while they are still well
    	fed?  
    
    	Gary

>>          <<< Note 222.94 by WEDOIT::ROBERTS "raised on Anthracite" >>>
    
>>    	The Spring hunt phase out would be the way to go.  Along that line
>>    	wouldn't the game be better in the Fall while they are still well
>>    	fed?  
   
Depends on what you're after.  I read an article last night (Petersen's
Hunting, latest issue) in which the author stated that the bear's
pelts were usually better in the spring, even though the body weight
would be higher in the fall.  Also, trophies are measured by the
size of their skull.  That probably wouldn't make much difference
whether in spring or fall.

I guess that if you're hunting bear for meat, the fall would be the
best.  

Jerry

	For anyone interested, I have some damage hunt applications
	at my desk.  They have to be postmarked by Dec 4.  They
	will be setting on the chair just inside my cube.  If you
	take the last one make a copy.

	Gordon
	1/G2

			1993 Big Game Season Dates


ARCHERY
Deer/elk (either sex) west of I-25			Aug 28 - Sept 26

Deer (either sex) east of I-25 (except Unit 140)	Oct 2 - 15 & 30 - Nov 26

Antelope: buck only					Aug 15 - 31
          either sex					Sept 1 - 20

MUZZLELOADING RIFLE
Deer/elk						Sept 11 -19

RIFLE COMBINED DEER/ELK
(Buck deer hunting during the first three
 days of each combined season)
First season:						Oct 16 - 20
Second season:						Oct 23 - Nov 3
Third season:						Nov 6 - 14

RIFLE DEER (east of I-25)				Oct 23 - Nov 3

LATE RIFLE DEER (east of I-25, except Unit 140)		Nov 27 - Dec 10

RIFLE ANTELOPE 
North of I-70:						Sept 25 - Oct 1
South of I-70:						Oct 2 - 8

BLACK BEAR (fall only)
Black bear season will run concurrently with the
combined rifle deer/elk seasons.
(I think there is also some dates in Sept, I will
 update when I'm sure.)


Application deadline for drawing licenses is June 1, 1993.

Colorado is hearing a proposal to reserve 15% of all draw tags for the 
clients of licensed outfitters.  15% are already reserved for landowners.

This means that the hunter who does not use an outfitter only has 70% of the
total tags pool from which he might get a tag.  Conversely, the outfitters say 
they do a lot to promote hunting in Colorado, and need to be successful in their
hunts.

Thoughts on this?   I don't know whether it would be enacted (if passed) such
that it would affect the 1993 season.  Seems like it'd make it that much 
harder to get a tag for a given area, even with preference points.


Steve

    hunting what BTW?
    

Sorry - Big game - elk, deer, antelope.  Also, management units with under 10
draw tags would be exempted from this proposed rule.

    
    It was my understanding that outfitters, usually are full up anyway, 
    which means that they couldn't support any more hunters anyway. 
    If this is true, then this law would only  result in LESS tags
    actually being used, or am I missing something here? I suppose
    the outfitter could expand to handle more clients.
    
    --Bob
    

    Probably give the outfitter much better areas to choose from and drive
    the self guided hunter to lesser areas. IMHO. 
    							Bret

    
    	Amen Bret.
    
    	I'm against it.............
    
    Clay

RE: <<< Note 222.102 by SALEM::MACGREGOR "they keep going and going and going" >>>
              -< take away better areas from self-guided hunters >-

>    Probably give the outfitter much better areas to choose from and drive
>    the self guided hunter to lesser areas. IMHO. 
>    							Bret


This is exactly what this bill will do.

Not that I'm taking the outfitter's side (I'm against this measure), but
their main complaint is that some years they are booked full and some
they aren't, primarily due to the fact that hunters are notified too
late to make alternate arrangements.  They claim that they have asked
the DOW to do something about this, but so far, nothing.

Seems to me like it wouldn't be too much of an imposition on anyone
to get the results of the draw a bit sooner.  If we could do this,
and the outfitters still griped, ....

Jerry

    
    	Has anybody gotten their applications for limited licenses yet?
    
    Clay

I recently spoke with the DOW officer who works the unit
I hunt.  The unit it 521, and is considered part of the Grand Mesa
unit.  For those who are familiar with the area, it is just west
of McClure pass, which is app. 50 miles south of Glennwood Springs.
Here's what I found out.

This year was rough on both deer and elk.  They figure about a 20-30%
winterkill for the elk.  For deer, it probably wasn't that high, but
the deer numbers were already low to begin with.  Most of the casualties
for the elk was the calves.  Bulls and cows fared equally well/poor.

The outlook for this year is still pretty good, though.  He doesn't
expect as high a success rate (it's been running about 25%), but it
should still be pretty good.  It will probably be a couple of years
down the road when you see the effect, as this year's calves were
really thinned out.

Bear numbers are good, and I can attest to that.  In three years of
hunting this area, someone in our party has seen a bear every year.
Last year we saw 5.

I believe that the western slope of the state had a rough winter, as
I've heard that the snowpack is about 150% of normal.  We've have 7 or 8
mild winters in a row, so I guess we were due for a rough one.  Does
anyone have any information about any other areas?

Jerry

	There are 10 archery hunting licenses for ewes left over for unit 534,
	Rampart Range.  These will go on sale first come, first served today
	at 8:00 at the Weber St office.
	

    Kind of offbase here, if any noter is familiar with Denver weather in
    mid July, please send an a1 to Robert M Harris @ALF.  I will be
    traveling to Denver the week of July 19, for a week of meetings, and
    don't know what to expect.
    
    
    bob
    

	The DOW has sent out cards and letters concerning leftover licenses.
	Leftover deer licenses will be issued first-come, first-served from
	regional offices.  There was an operator error on the letters about
	leftover elk licenses.  They printed the hunter application info on
	deer letters rather than elk letters.  They will be resending the
	leftover elk application letters.  BTW there are loads of leftover 
	cow elk tags.

	******** COLORADO HUNTERS - TAKE NOTE ***********


The DOW is currently accepting surveys on what the public thinks their role
should be.  The future of hunting is (somewhat) at stake.

I was mailed a survey, but the DOW has placed them around in some store.  
There's no evidence you can't mail in more than one, either.

The survey asks you to rate hunting, fishing, wildlife watching, TV programs
on wildlife, etc. in relative importance.  I sure put hunting first, then 
fishing, since anti-hunters, etc. are always out for these two, first.


If you live in Colorado, GET A SURVEY AND FILL IT OUT!  The DOW must do what
the public wants, and if hunters and fishermen don't do their share of survey
mailing, we'll get a DOW that will support TV programs instead of animal 
habitat. 

I'm trying to get a stack of these surveys (which are short, and well written).
If I can, I'll put the stack in my office, and post a note here.  The DOW 
office on Weber St. should have them.


The only essay answer to the survey is this "What do you think is the most
important thing the DOW could do in the next 5 years" - my answer was this
"Promote the message that hunting is an important part of game conservation
and management" (since that is where I believe the public is most often misled).


Steve

I just heard that Ft. Carson will not be allowing any big game hunting
(deer/elk) during any of the first three combined seasons.  In years past,
this has posed a problem due to unavailibility of hunting land because
it was being used for military training and manuevers.  So, this year
they just decided not to do it at all.

The only deer and elk hunting for this year will be during a special
late season that runs from November 15 through December 31.  At this
time, it is not know which days during that period will be open for
hunting.  The only open dates known for sure at this time are the
4 days around Thanksgiving, and December 18-31.  Other days may be
available, depending on military use.

The late season mentioned above is strictly on a permit basis.  Drawings
for these permits was held in July, so if you don't have one now, you
won't get to hunt deer or elk at Ft. Carson, period.  The information
that I have is that there were 25 buck deer and 10 doe deer permits
issued, and 10 bull elk permits.  I'm not sure about cow elk permits.

I am posting this to inform anyone that was planning a hunt at Ft. Carson
during one of the first 3 combined seasons will have sufficient notice
to make other arrangements.  It would be a real bummer to show up on
opening morning just to be told that you can't hunt.

Jerry

P.S.  I was lucky enough to draw one of the late season buck permits.

< permission granted to cross post in FISHING or other notesfiles >


*******************  COLORADO ANTI-HUNTING/FISHING ALERT  ****************

The Denver Post recently published an article outlining changes at the DOW
after some anti-hunting/fishing activists packed some meetings last year.

I can't enter the whole article, but will try to hit the salient points.  Copies
of the article are available in my office.    

Essentially, the DNR director, Ken Salazar, wants to change the spending 
arrangement in the DOW.  The DOW now spends 5% of its monies on non-game 
wildlife efforts.  Salazars plan would raise that to 20% and "some insiders
think it could expand to 50%".

The columnist (Charlie Meyers) feels that Salazar is in bed with Romer on this
issue and won't accept criticism of his plan.  Meyers thinks that a separate
non-game division be formed within the DNR to keep the money and efforts 
separate. 


Meyers final plea - 

"Worst of all, this plan raises the spectre of diverting money from hunting and 
fishing licences to the very people opposed to hunting and fishing.

"Meanwhile, Colorado's hunters and fishermen should flood Salazar's mailbox,
1313 Sherman St. Denver, CO 80202, with their protets.  The wildlife commission,
which will vote on the plan in January, should toss it in the scrap heap.  Then,
perhaps we could come up with something fair and sensible."




My letter is included below
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

*****************************************************************************

23-November-1993
<p>
 { address }
<p>
<p>
Ken Salazar, Director<line>
Department of Natural Resources<line>
1313 Sherman St.<line> 
Denver, CO  80202
<p>
<p>
Dear Director Salazar:
<p>
<p>
As the enclosed article indicates, it appears that a shift in focus is taking
place in the DNR and/or DOW.  This shift is away from the traditional charter
of supporting hunting and fishing activities, which of course benefits all
users of public land.  
<P>
I also recall that the DOW now gets lottery money had been misappropriated by
the State of Colorado toward other spending.  This windfall should be a big
boon to your budget.  So, why scam the money from hunters and fishermen to 
support non-game wildlife efforts?  
<P>
As a resident who spends ~$100 a year on fishing, small, and big game licenses,
I am OUTRAGED that my money will be spent to support activities preferred by 
anti-hunting and fishing activists.  These are the people who packed the 
hearings, as the article mentions.  They're also the idiots behind Amendment 10,
which even your own DOW was against.
<P>
I don't want to give up my outdoor activities in this state, but if cheap 
political moves are what is now motivating the DNR/DOW in the critical 
activity of game management, I'd like to know.  That way, I can hunt and fish 
in Wyoming or another state.  
<P>
There is probably "room on the bus" for all sides of the issue - why not use
the lottery money for non-game funding, and continue to use the hunters and
fishermen's money for game-related funding?  Just because hunters and fishermen
didn't pack your hearing doesn't mean they're not interested.
<P>
I would appreciate a response.
<p>
<p>
Sincerely,
<p>
<p>
<p>
Steven R. Helmreich

    Fellow Colorado Springs Noters:
    
     Anyone know of a good taxidermist in Colorado Springs or surrounding
    area.   Im not really interested in cost just a good one someone has
    used and was extremly pleased or has seen their work.  
    
    The one I got on Saturday is too good to have it messed up!  10 point
    27 1/2" spread.
    
    Thanks,
    Paul

Colorado game damage hunt applications are due (postmarked) by Dec. 6.  This
is the special drawing for 100 permits to hunt for elk, deer or antelope on
specified land during a specified period to help out farmers whose crops are 
being damaged.  Application is free, and it doesn't matter whether you did any 
regular season hunting or took an animal then.

I have a couple appls. in my office; write me if interested.  Sorry about the
late notice....


Steve 
WEPUBS::HELMREICH

    
    
    Colorado Big Game applications are out now they  have to be postmarked
    by Apr. 4th this year... NOT the usual June date...
    
    
    Dave

    
    
     I"m going to be hunting deer this year during Black powder season, I
    plan right now on hunting rampart range area. Anyone out there who can
    give me any tips on area 51 or 511. 
    
    Thanks
       Dave

I hunt 511 and have got a deer every year since '81, I also hunted rampart a few
times but always go back to 511. I hunt archery but my wife hunts, Black powder. 

Hunt about 1 mile south of the dam.to the left side of the road(hwy 24 side). I
think the road was number 301 I could check for you. I have it marked on a map.
Are you hunting him's or her's. ?.I have a much better place for her's.
I cracked my bell housing comming out of there so I would now walk in, about one
mile then you come to a hidden valley, with lots and lots of long grass. Most of
the deer you will see will  be about 50 to 100 yrds a little far for me but
perfect for Black powder. You will find the doe's about 300 to 500 yrds from the
road in the first valley, but the *VERY* large bucks I have seen are at the
second valley. Lots of 4X4's I have seen a non tipical 7X9, for 2 years now.       

~dave

    
    Re:118
    
    Thanks Dave
    
    sent reply by mail!
    
     Dave

    Called DOW about the pamphlets for the big game seasons and license
    applications for 1996.  The pamphlets will not be in until March 1.  
    Deadline for applications will be April 2.

    Tight fit.

    fred();