Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    Steve,
    
    Thanks for the good info., and reading.  I can relate to a lot of
    the "inexperience" problems that you talk about.  I know I have
    a lot of them.  I don't shoot that often, never seem to have the
    time, until November.  I killed the first deer I ever shot at with
    my rifle, but on the 3rd shot, I was lucky.  This past season I
    wasn't so lucky, missed a big 7 pt. 207# buck.  I am sure I hit
    him, but not very good.  I only know his size and rack from someone
    that talked to the guy that found him.  I learned a lot from that
    experience.  I will try and jog my memory...
    
    It was opening morning last season, still hunting up the side of
    a mountain, 300 yards from the top...very steep.  I was taking my
    time, 2-3 steps every 5-10 minutes...when crunch, snap...crack.
    Here he is, I knew it was a buck immediately, could spot the antlers,
    but didn't even bother counting or gazing at them.  I waited until
    he came around a stump...at about 35 yards.  He was uphill to me,
    standing slightly downhill...looking right at me.  Safety was off,
    crosshairs were on the base of his neck..when he took two steps
    and exposed his side...I couldn't miss the flexing shoulder muscle
    in my scope...which was on 4X.  I moved from the neck to about 2"
    behind the front shoulder and squeezed...BANG.  His downhill leg
    (front) let loose and he fell, but let me tell you he didn't give
    me a second chance.  I shot again as he cleared a 7' blowdown...only
    to put it into the tree.  He ran about 50 yds., and stopped behind
    some trees...tail tucked right up under his ass.  I looked at the
    watch...said give him 5 minutes to die and get ready to celebrate.
    Well suddenly I couldn't see him any more...I thought he was done
    with.  I circled low and came to where he was standing to see
    absolutely nothing.  Well not having much experience I sort of paniced.
    Couldn't pick his track from the many others in the leaves, so I
    started looking for his carcass...which I never found.
    
    My point is, from what I can remember, my best shot was the base
    of the neck when we was looking down at me, high percentage.  As
    soon as he turned any mistake from me could mean a very low percentage,
    ponch shot etc....I didn't find any blood, but did find very few
    short brown hairs that had been cut.  It turns out someone claims
    they shot a big buck on the back side of the mountain, about 500
    yards away...in a stream the next day.  I was on that mountain all
    the next day never to hear a shot...so I believe the found him dead.
    
    I do not want to write another story like this next year.  I will
    start practicing very soon.  And maybe buy a new gun...I haven't
    exactly been satisfied with my present rifle.  It is a Rem. Model
    7600, .270 pump.  I am not a good shot with it, although I believe
    it may be me more than the gun.  The guy who sold it to me shot
    it after I complained about it, and put a group of 5 within a few
    inches of each other at 200 yards.  I shot it right after that with
    the same ammo and probably put them within a 6" group.  He has a
    lot of shooting experience.  I believe I have some of the problems
    listed above...I guess it's practice, practice, and more practice,
    and them make a decision about the gun.
    
    thanks,
    
    Kevin

    .0   Has a good point in his note around praticing, but that is
    what most peoples problems come from the lack of thinking ahead
    of time and sometimes i'm no exception either. Most people don't
    even consider going out to practice because its to hot or just about
    any other excuse they can find not to do it. This also holds true
    to the point of buying guns, calibers,models,and most important
    prices deplete and go up as the season comes with the crisp cool
    air.
    
    .1  I know how you feel about not getting the deer, I went through
    the exact same thing last season. As you talked about your experience
    I was invisioning mine and almost right down to the same details.
    In my case and yours through I really acredit the loss to angles
    more than accuracy. I was on a stand and watched the 2 deer come
    for a good 75 yards, but always in my mind what myself and my brothers
    were taught "Make a Good Clean Shot" in other words "WAIT". And
    thats exactly what I did. The first avaiable shot was to the neck
    but I held it back waiting for the shoulder which always seems like
    hours. One thing I really didn't figure in shot placement this time
    was the downward angle (believe i'll never forget again), I fired
    and the deer screwed with its tail in the air. I stood up to see
    the direction it was going, once that was in my mind I went to where
    it was standing. There was a mixture of white & brown hair along
    with flesh but no blood. I then headed toward the direction of the
    deers departure. I saw it leeping through the hardwoods but couldn't
    get another shot. But to end the story we looked for 2 days for
    this deer only to find a good blood trail that ended and into a
    20+ acre clear cut witout being able to find the deer. I both .1
    reply and my own story you see how angles play a big part also.
    
                                                 A lesson learned,
    
                                                        Guy
                                                         _
                                                        (+)
                                                         -

    .0
    What kind of rifle and loads do you use for the Hi Power competition.
    I did a little a couple of years ago with a M1 Garrand which I borrowed
    from a friend to shoot in a couple of leg matches. The very first
    match at six hunderd yards my front sight fell off the gun. I borrowed
    an allen wrench to put it back on with but did lousy. This kind
    of thing can really shake you up........
    
    sjn

    Sorry Steve,
    
    While I appreciate *most* of what you are saying, I can't buy the
    following:
    
    >Anyway back to the subject at hand. There are articles in this note
    >file pertaining to the caliber and load the respective authors prefer for
    >hunting. All I can say is that most any load is the right one if the projectile
    >is properly placed on the intended target. Although my choice for most north
    >American big game would be the 308. I know its' trajectory like the back of
    >my hand and if properly placed the bullet will take most any game animal.
    
    But I am glad you picked the .308 for an example.
    
    I intend to hunt Pronghorn in Montana, which will likely require
    a 300 yard shot to a 80-100 lbs. beast.
    
    I will hunt Blacktail/Mulie in Washington.  A shot of 50-200 yards is
    reasonable.
    
    I will also hunt Elk in Washington.  The 50-200 yard range probably
    applies.
    
    Now, which weight bullet should I use in my .308?  Remember, you
    said that almost any load would do.
    
    I disagree.  The optimum load (according to most books you read)
    for hunting Antelope is a light bullet (130 gr.) in .270 caliber.
    This will give you a nice flat flight for 300 yards and a fair amount
    of momentum.  Now, for a .308, I would love to use a 130 gr bullet
    but no one makes one (other than a FP and a HP).  I don't want to
    use a heavy bullet for two reasons.  1) the trajectory stinks at
    that range.  2) I like the taste of Antelope and I'd like to be
    able to find something other than a rack in the dust.
    
    I've decided to use a 150 grain bullet (rather go up than down to
    110 gr).  I'll need to put some powder in there to move it and keep
    the trajectory as flat as possible.
    
    This load would probably cut it for a deer, although 165 gr. would
    be my optimum load.  You probably want more than a 150 gr for a
    mulie.  I'll bet that 180 gr is most popular for Mule Deer.
    
    For an Elk, I think a 150 gr bullet is irresponsible.  You chance
    injury without a kill.  I am planning on using a 180 gr bullet.
    
    So, the 180 grain bullet is far too heavy to shoot 300 yards at
    a tiny little antelope.  On the other hand, 150 grain bullets
    are too light for Elk.  I don't have .308 trajectories here
    at work, but they there will be a big difference.  For one thing,
    that 180 gr is not moving nearly as fast as that 150 gr.
    
    And so on and so on and so on.
    
    I agree with most of the rest of what you say.  The interesting
    thing is about iron sights.  I have a .308 that I didn't have a
    scope for for about 11 months.  I wanted to hunt with it so I
    took it out to shoot with iron sights.  Gosh, was I surprised
    how accurate I was at 100 yards with no scope.  Almost as good
    as with a scope!!!
    
    Last point.  About focusing in on the iron sights instead of the
    target.  The interesting thing here is that this is the opposite
    of shotgunning.  With a shotgun, you swing the gun and focus on
    the target (pheasant, clay, duck) and not at the bead.
    
    Brett.
      

    	OK !! looks like I have some readers out there.
    
    	I'll answer all the question I can before I go on Vacation and
    the rest  after I get back.
    
    	.3 I started with a M1. It didn't take long before I could out
    shoot the gun so I built my own M1A1 (civilian version of the M14).
    I put a Douglas heavy match barrell 1:12 twist on a springfield
    reveiver. Bedded the thing in a heavy grade match stock. The gun
    is holding less than a minute accuracy right now but the barrel
    wil need replacing this comiming spring, I think, 5000 + rounds 
    through it now and another 1000 to go this year alone.
    
	.4 I agree not any load is good for any job. I'll have an answer
    for you next week. But my prelim is use Nosler 180gr protected point
    partitioned bullet. It won't turn antilope into dust and will take
    Elk when PROPERLY placed. I'll have full ballistic table for  you
    in my next reply. I think you'll be suprised how flat that little
    pill will fly.                               
    
    	Steve. :^) 9 more days till the nationals, and two weeks of
    shooting!! :^) :^) :^)

    rep: .5
    
     >    .4 I agree not any load is good for any job. I'll have an answer
     >for you next week. But my prelim is use Nosler 180gr protected point
     >partitioned bullet. It won't turn antilope into dust and will take
     >Elk when PROPERLY placed. I'll have full ballistic table for  you
     >in my next reply. I think you'll be suprised how flat that little
     >pill will fly.                               
      
    
    Of course, I'd be interested to learn anything about the subject,
    but it so happens that I am loading Nosler Partition Bullets; 180
    grainers for Elk and 150 grainers for Antelope.  I sight in with
    Sierra bullets of the same weight.  Then before I go hunting, I
    load up the Noslers and fine tune the scopes for the bullet.
    
    I've thought about your remarks this weekend.  I agree that one
    should shoot more than just 5 rounds to sight in the gun the weekend
    before a given season.  I have been shooting a *lot* this year.
    In fact, my trap shooting is suffering.  The reason is that I have
    never taken 300+ yard shots in hunting situations before.  I'm really
    looking forward to this opportunity.
    
    This weekend I was visiting my dog who is at a trainer's near Yakima,
    WA.  The terrain out there is sort of rolling hills.  It is very
    hot and desert like this time of the year....much like Northern
    CA East of the mountains.  We were working my dog and in the distance
    was a Coyote.  He comes down to steal Chukars from the trainer.
    The Coyote was about 300-400 yards off.  Of course we didn't have
    a rifle.  The trainer wanted to shoot him and I was wishing I had
    my .308 or .300 WM so bad.........   All I could think of was "I
    wonder if I could hit that sucker from here?"
    
    I was sure I could, but I guess I'll never know.  Least not till
    pronghorn season.
    
    The other thing I was thinking about is handloading vs. factory.
    Maybe you are right that any factory load would do the job.  I mean
    you can buy a wide variety of calibers/weights.  However, there
    is the "fun" factor.  I enjoy loading and getting a nice group.
    It gives me a lot better feeling about hunting with my own loads.
    Not that mine are better than factories....it just floats my boat.
    I would enter more of my loads in the "loading notes", but I have
    been perfecting them throughout the summer.  Then again, maybe the
    loads aren't improving as much as I am from shooting a lot.
    
    ;-)
    
    Brett.

    re:0
    Just read it, its good. I don't compete, but I was an expert in
    the USMC. One thing that you didn't mention that is valuable in
    sighting, is that you place the front sight blade at 6 o'clock
    on the bullseye. Many people try to hold the sight in the center
    of the target when aimimg, which causes an inconsistent patern.
    The target and rear sight should be fuzzy while the front blade
    is clear and kissing the target at 6 o'clock.
    
    I use to be a bowman, and people always were talking about the
    poundage they should have for deer and I guess the same thing
    happens in the gun world. There seems to be an attitude "I need
    power to knock em down". A big deer is only  12" to 18" wide, 
    in the northeast on average, most bows of 40lbs will put an arrow
    completely through a deer, and a rifle of 30-30 caliber is more 
    than enough for deer. I'm in the agreement of, accuracy is more 
    important than power. In New England most deer are taken within
    30yards, so even a 12guage shotgun is good, in Massachusetts only
    shotguns are allowed.
    
    Jim

	re: .3 sorry I forgot to tell you the load I am using.
I load 41.5 grains of Accurate 2460 powder to push a 180 grain
Hollow Point Boat Tail Match King bullet. I get 2450 fps at
the muzzle. It shoots real good out of that gas pipe of mine.


	re: .4, .6

	Brett, glad to see you are out there on the practice range.
you are right!! you are getting better!


	Before I enter the trajectory tables I promised I have
a caution about your practice. You said you are using one type
of projectile of the same weight for practice and a different one
for the real hunt. That's OK if you remember that even though the
projectile is the same weight it may have a different trajectory.
That is, it will have different mid-range and longer than sighted
range rise and drop. It's OK to use different bullet types of
the same weight but be sure they have the same ballistic coefficient
or close there abouts. When you practice don't just shoot at the 
sighted in distance, shoot at targets at mid-ranges and 50-100 yards
beyond the sighted in distance. This will help you really learn just
what your load is doing and allow you to make that all important
perfect hit.

	One more item then the tables. It has been noted, and I through
experience can state, that the trajectory of the gun/load you shoot will
change with a change in Altitude and Temp, etc. I have found that my 308
will have a change of 1 degree of angle  for each 15-20 degree change
in temp. What that says is, if you sight your rifle in on a 90 degree
day and then hunt on a 30 degree day the bullet "may" hit as much as
12 inches lower at 300 yards than when you sighted it in, and the Big
Buck is waving good by. So if you can, when you are at your base camp
ask the guide, if you use one, or find a spot where you won't spook
local game and take a few sighting shoots to check and fine tune your
gun to the local conditions.

	You said in .6 you were using 150 gr and 180 gr grand slams. I only
have tables for the 150 gr. Grand Slam. I am giving you a table which is 
very close to the 180 gr Grand Slam. I don't know your load so I am giving
you the trajectory for each at several muzzle velocities. Also these
tables are for the gun sighted in at 300 yards. If you don't have 300 yards
to shoot from let me know what distance you have and I will send you
Via; Email the tables for that range. The -1.5 for 0.0 yards is due to
the height if the sights above the bore.


	Trajectory taken at: 29.5 Barometric Pressure
			     59 Degrees F.
			     78% Relative Humidity

Remember Trajectories WILL differ under different weather conditions.


		150gr Grand Slam, Ballistic coefficient =.370


Muzzle	 |------------ yards ---------------|
Velocity  0.0 	100	200	300	400
-------------------------------------------
3500	 -1.5	2.6	3.3	0.0	-8.2
3400	 -1.5	2.8	3.6	0.0	-8.7
3300 	 -1.5	3.1	3.8	0.0	-9.3
3200	 -1.5	3.3	4.1	0.0	-10.0
3100	 -1.5	3.6	4.4	0.0	-10.8
3000	 -1.5	4.0	4.8	0.0	-11.6
2900	 -1.5	4.3	5.2	0.0	-12.5
2800	 -1.5	4.7	5.6	0.0	-13.6
2700	 -1.5	5.2	6.1	0.0	-14.8
2600	 -1.5	5.7	6.7	0.0	-16.1
2500	 -1.5	6.3	7.3	0.0	-17.6
2400	 -1.5	7.0	8.0	0.0	-19.3
2300	 -1.5	7.7	8.9	0.0	-21.3
2200	 -1.5	8.6	9.8	0.0	-23.5
2100	 -1.5	9.6	10.9	0.0	-26.1


		180 gr Spitzer/Protected Point
		Ballistic coefficient =.420

Muzzle	 |------------ yards ---------------|
Velocity  0.0 	100	200	300	400
-------------------------------------------
3400	 -1.5	2.7	3.4	0.0	-8.2
3300 	 -1.5	2.9	3.7	0.0	-9.3
3200	 -1.5	3.2	3.9	0.0	-9.4
3100	 -1.5	3.5	4.2	0.0	-10.1
3000	 -1.5	3.8	4.6	0.0	-10.9
2900	 -1.5	4.2	5.0	0.0	-11.8
2800	 -1.5	4.6	5.4	0.0	-12.8
2700	 -1.5	5.0	5.8	0.0	-13.9
2600	 -1.5	5.5	6.4	0.0	-15.1
2500	 -1.5	6.1	7.0	0.0	-16.5
2400	 -1.5	6.7	7.7	0.0	-18.1
2300	 -1.5	7.4	8.4	0.0	-19.9
2200	 -1.5	8.2	9.3	0.0	-22.0
2100	 -1.5	9.2	10.4	0.0	-24.4


	If you look close at the tables you can see the trajectories at
mid velocities are about the same for both bullets. What this tells me
is I would pick the 180 grain and stick with it for the whole hunt.
It will give you the same trajectory but with better performance when
it begins its' business. That's knock down power.

	The extra 30 grains won't blow your antelope apart but will give
you what you need on the elk. AND you only have to learn one set of
trajectory for the entire hunt.

	I hope this helps you and good shooting on the hunt.

	Steve :*)

	only two days till the nationals and two weeks of shooting!!

	:*) :*) :*) :*)

re: .7
	This is a good point! I however use point of impact hold 
for all hunting here in New England. Ranges are close enough to use it.


	When I shoot long range, over 150 yards I do in fact use
the six O'clock hold. I sight the gun in to hit 10-12 (depends on bullet
trajectory) inches above sighting point on a 300 yard target. I can 
then shoot holding the front sight with the leg of the animal running 
along side the sight and the belly of the animal resting on top of the 
sight. That puts the bullet in the boiler room every time out to 300 
yards. for 350-400 yards I push the front sight into the middle of 
the chest. Beyond that I don't shoot. If I had and used a scope I 
would take shots beyond 400 yards but it starts to get risky with 
iron sights. Also I rarely take shots on running game beyond 50 yards
here in New England and beyond 200 out west.

	I have not been out west hunting for some 18 years, I would
love to start it again!!!

    RE: .8
    
    Okay, I've given this a lot of thought.  While you are correct in
    that there is not a big difference in trajectory between the 150
    gr and 180 gr bullets that you've sited, I just can't do it.  I
    think the reason that I can't bring myself to use a 180 gr bullet
    for Antelope hunting is that it is just too big.
    
    I really only want to use a 130 gr bullet.  The 150 gr bullet is
    already a tradeoff.  There is a big differnce between what a 130
    gr bullet and a 180 gr bullet will do inside of such a small animal.
    
    At this point, I still am leaning toward building two loads, a 150
    gr and a 180 gr.  I can always use two different guns if I don't
    think I will have adequate time to reload and sight in between hunts.
    In fact, that may be a good idea to have a gun sighted in and ready
    to gbo for each hunt.  Then switch my favorite rifle from load to
    load time permitting.
    
    What are other opinions out there?
    
    Would the rest of you use a 180 gr bullet for hunting smaller "big
    game"?
    
    I wanna know.  Maybe I'm jaded by a lot of "old school" thought.
    
    Brett.

    Hi folks, I'm back from the national matches. Did some of the things
    I set out to do and missed some of the others. ;^)   &   :#(  
    I thought I was not shooting up to my potential at the six hundred
    yard line the first week but found it was a broken gun causing the
    problems. After I fixed it I and the gun shot like there was no
    tomorrow.
    
    RE: .10
    
    Glad to see you gave a lot of thought to the subject Brett. I wish
    some folks out in the land of  the setting sun would respond
    to your request. I hunted Antelope twice and used a 7MM-08 with
    a 130 gr bullet on one occasion. Took them little BIG game just fine. 
    Also took one with a 180 gr bullet. Didn't see any big difference in 
    the damage done. Both were shot at about 200 yards just behind the 
    front shoulder and the bullet, on both occasions, passed through the 
    animal.
    
    	In a perfect bullet/animal combination the bullet would not pass 
    through the animal but stop just prior to exiting. This would mean the 
    bullet had expended all its' energy in the animal and none would be 
    wasted. This of course just doesn't happen all the time.
    
    	I can't give you the perfect combination. All I can do is what
    I set out to do, get you thinking.
        
    	I am not of the old school so I would still use the 180gr for
    the entire hunt. But this is a personal choice and nothing more!
    
    If some of you Western hunters out there have more knowledge/experience
    on the subject please respond. I like Brett would like to hear from you.
    
    	Steve Who_Had_Fun_At_The_Nationals :^) 

    Brett,
    
    I have been hunting elk, deer, and antelope out here in Colorado
    for 12 years now.  I use a .270 with the same load for all three.
    The bullet is 130 grain boat tail going about 2950 fps out of the
    barrel.  I hunt with this rifle and so does my wife when she goes
    along.  This load is considered light by some people for elk and
    deer, but it has taken 8 elk and 12 deer with single shots.  It
    does alot of damage on antelope if it hits bone, but the deer and
    elk have thicker hides and stronger bones and it does a fine job
    of bringing them down.  It has taken 12 or more antelope over the
    years too.
    
    As stated by several other noters, its the shot placement thats
    important.  I've seen guys shot all three of the above animals
    several times with larger guns and bigger bullets and several times
    the game still gets away.  Nothing #is$es me off more than
    knowing there is an animal out there dying and going to waste.
    
    Sure bigger guns are more maucho, but you have to be able to control
    it.  I opt to use the one I do because it is easy to control and
    confortable to shot, and I do shot a lot of rounds out of it before
    season.  The years that we draw an antelope tag, my friends and
    I go out east and shot at a rolling target in a tire coming down
    a grade.  We also do alot of 200 - 300 yard practice.  All but 1
    of the deer and elk I've shot have been within 100 yards, and most
    of them within 50 yards.  So before deer and elk season I make sure
    I'm dead on at 100 yards.  
    
    The point I'm trying to make is practice and get to know your rifle.
    I hand load my ammo, so every round is +/- only a couple of grains,
    physical pieces of powder, of each other.  What a difference it
    makes out at the range.  When I pull the trigger I know my tools
    and me are tuned.  After that, the work starts.  Good luck.
    
    Gordon
    

    Hi folks,
    
    Just read the note and thought I'd add my opinion. I'm now 40+ yeras
    old and been hunting for about 35 of those. I've used all sorts
    of rifles on all sorts of game. As with .4 I am an expert marksman
    from USMC.
    
    My personal preference (i've been using it for about 10 years now)
    is a 25-06. Too small you say? Over the years I have taken antelope
    out to 300 yds and elk and deer at all kinds of ranges.
    
    I hand load my own using IMR 4350 powder, CCI 200 primers, and 120
    gr. SIERRA spire point boat tails. If I can't cover my group at
    250 yds with a coffee cup, then I probably did something wrong I
    know the rifle can do it. BTW the rifle is a 1937 German Mauser
    (8mm) that I had rebarreled (sp) in 1976 with a douglas medium weight.
    
    I have to agree with the original statement that placement is more
    important then power as all the deer I killed in my youth (5-10
    yrs) were killed with a Winchester pump .22 that belonged to my
    Grandfather.
    
    The point I'm trying to make is LEARN TO SHOOT YOU RIFLE AND LOAD.
    If you know what it will do it doesn't matter (to a point) what
    that combination is as long as the bullet will go to a precise point
    you pick on the target.
    
    This is just my opinion,
    Thanks for listening to a Texas Boy,
    Harvey
    

    MESSED UP AGAIN,
    
    I intended to say .7 when I said .4 in previous note.
    
    Also for those of you looking for consistency in placement, I bedded
    my rifle in fiberglass. This is done with two beds, one under the
    tang in front of the receiver and the other under the rear of the
    receiver. The metal does not touch the wood of the stock anywhere
    and two of my business cards will travel unobstructed between the
    barrel and stock from tip to fiberglass bedding under receiver.
    This eliminates some of the change in impact due to weather changes.
    
    As I stated before these are just my opinions, I'm no authority
    but I do have a lot of time behind the stock.
    
    Harvey_FOR_WHAT_IT'S_WORTH
    

	Time to start this one up a bit again .... and if this has been
	covered already, somebody steer me to the right note.

	One of the replies in this topic mentioned that the bullet's
	trajectory was off due to shooting up (or down) hill.

	What affect and how much does shooting up/downhill?

	If someone has tables showing the affect, I would appreciate
	them posting them.

	I've heard that shooting up (or down) hill causes the bullet
	to shoot high.

	So, for a 45 degree angle what's the scoop?

	AA

    If you are shooting at a slant the distance (slant-range) will not be
    the same as the range that is affected by gravity (horizontal range).
    The formula is:     2   2    2
                       A + B  = C  where c= the longest side.
    
    for a 400 yd (slant range) shot at a 45 degree angle, the distance that
    gravity would influence the bullet path would be 282.84 yds. This means
    that the bullet would only drop the amount it would normally drop for a
    282 yd shot. You would be most likely holding for a 400 yd shot and
    the bullet would go sailing over the top of the animal by several FEET.
    Of course, a flatter trajectory would help deminish this problem.
    
    Lowell
    

    
    
    I hate to get real technical, but if you can find some trig tables,
    it's very easy to determine the horizontal distance.  Just multiply
    the total distance by the cosine of the angle.  For instance, if
    I remember correctly, the cosine of 45 degrees is .707.  Therefore,
    if you are shooting at a 45 degree incline (or decline, it doesn't
    matter), and your target is 200 yards away, the bullet will actually
    only travel 200 x .707 = 141.4 yards.  Unfortunately, I never seem
    to have a trig table, a way to measure the angle, or the time to
    do it when the opportunity presents itself.  I just hold a little
    lower than normal when I shoot uphill or downhill.
    
    Jerry

	Thanks to those who replied.  I was aware of the trig functions
	involved but was curious as to how gravity would affect the 
	trajectory.

	Ran some numbers through my calculator just for fun and here's
	the results.

	AA

	variance in trajectory based on shooting 
	up/downhill at various angles

	yds  	100	200	300	400
	-----------------------------------
	< 	results in effective yardage

	10	98	197	295	393

	15	96	193	289	386

	20	94	188	282	376
	
	25	91	181	272	362

	30	87	173	260	346

	35	82	164	246	328

	40	77	153	230	306

	45	71	141	212	283

	50	64	129	193	257

	55	57	115	172	229

	60	50	100	150	200

	65	42	85	127	169

	70	34	68	103	137

	75	26	52	78	104

	80	17	35	52	69

	85	9	17	26	35