Conference vicki::boats

    
    You can do a HELI-COIL installation yourself.
    
    As for the carbs, how long do you intend on keeping this engine?
    It's got "knots" on it and it's not a new puppy.
    
    I'd run about a pint of fuel with a little drygas or denatured
    alcohol through it, if it were mine.  Then try a normal mix,
    and if she didn't perform as it did before this happening, then
    I'd go for the repairs.
    
    Fred

re:                     <<< Note 1071.1 by MPGS::MASSICOTTE >>>

>    You can do a HELI-COIL installation yourself.
    
	Can you describe it a bit more ?  Is the objective to redo the
	threads to the same size as the original ?  If not, what would
	you do about plug size ?

>     As for the carbs, how long do you intend on keeping this engine?
>     It's got "knots" on it and it's not a new puppy.

	Seeing how I've only had it for about 18 months, it normally
	runs perfectly, and is very dependable, I'd like to get many	
	more knots on it ;-)   Is the procedure he's recommending 	
	necessary (ie, carb rebuilds and all that) ?  

	My feeling was to do what you describe, try a little drygas 
	in the first tankful, and take it from there.  I know I've had 
	water in my car gas before, and that's all it took to get around 
	the problem.  The guy at the marine place told me "don't use drygas 
	in there", but I have reason to be a little suspicious of his advice.

	Thanks
	Ken

    Personally, I think the guy saw you coming and is going to take you for
    a ride as far as he can.  You should be able to take the jets out
    yourself and hit them with a carb cleaner which will both clean them
    and dry them.  I bet the drygas would work anyways.  Use the good stuff
    (methanol??) not the cheap $.33 per bottle stuff.  Using it only once
    or twice shouldn't cause harm to the rubber seals, etc.  As far as the
    helicoil repair.  Some people use them, some won't.  I don't have any 
    particular opinion because I never tried one.  I did strip a spark plug
    on a Honda motorcycle once (aluminum head, same as outboard?).  I
    tipped the motorcycle upside down (drained the oil first, something you
    don't have to do) and used a thread repair tap made for spark plugs and
    a vacuum cleaner with a small hose attached that I could stick into the
    hole after each turn.  I would take a quarter turn in at a time and
    then backed it out some so the shavings would work there way out. 
    After a couple of times of doing this, I would carefully remove the tap
    and clean it off with a spray brake (or carb) cleaner and then vacuum
    the hole out.  A little light oil on the tap after cleaning it off
    helps.  I was able to rethread the hole without having to resort to a 
    helicoil (which, by the way, probably requires that you go to the same
    trouble of preventing shavings from entering into the combustion
    chamber as if you were just rethreading).
    
    Personally, I would give Rick Wilson in Milford, NH a call.  He was our
    resident outboard (especially older OMC) expert until he got TFSO'd a
    couple of weeks ago.  I'm sure he would gladly discuss your problems
    over the phone and he would charge you alot less (and only do what
    really needed to be done).  Webster to Milford is probably a 2 hour
    ride over good roads if towing a boat.  Rick's number is 603-673-3840.
    Wayne
    

re:                    <<< Note 1071.3 by SALEM::NORCROSS_W >>>
>                           -< Get a second opinion! >-

>    Personally, I think the guy saw you coming and is going to take you for
>    a ride as far as he can.  

	Thanks for your note.  This is the feeling I get too!  The guy	
 	is talking about a lot of work for having water in the fuel line.
	The motor had been running great before this incident, and he's
	talking about rebuilding the carbs, new float needles, etc.  Seems
	like if the alcohol in fuel these days was gonna be a problem it
	would have surfaced by now.

>   You should be able to take the jets out
>     yourself and hit them with a carb cleaner which will both clean them
>     and dry them.  

	I'll try the drygas first (after dealing with the plug), the good	
	stuff.  One question: what are the jets and what would I look for 
	to clean em ?   Do I need to open anything up to get at them ?

	After all the work on the Thompson (new transom, etc etc etc), 
	I was heartbroken for this stuff to happen, especially the hole :-/  
	I thought I had seen the last of the epoxy + fiberglass for a while!

	I climbed back into this conference to get Rick's #, and then	
	I read your reply ;-)   I figure he's probably bored not working ;-)
	Message left.

	Thanks,
	Ken    

    In my opinion if you plan on keeping this boat for a while then pull
    the head to fix the damaged threads.  It only takes one scratch in the
    cylinder to cause you more headache than pulling the head to begin
    with. I have a 1969 85hp Johnson and pulling the head is as simple as
    taking out the bolts that hold the head on.  I don't think there is
    that much difference between our engines.  You will need a new gasket
    to put the head back on after the threads are repaired.
    
    Be real careful with the helicoil repair kit.  Follow the advise of the
    previous note to the letter.  It does not take much to clog up the tap
    and bore yourself a nice smooth hole.  This is experience on this one. 
    If you don't feel comfortable with this one you can take it to a
    machine shop, but it will cost you.  Another option that might be
    cheaper is to call Whitney's in Leominster.  He might have a head
    floating around real cheap.  If you do decide to call him wait till
    next week because he is on vacation.
    
    I agree with everyone else regarding your carbs.  Try the dry-gas
    route.  Sounds like this guy is trying to make a buck.
    
    Wayne

    
    Here's my .02 cents worth.
    
    1. Don't use anything with alcohol.
    
    2. if you have never done a helicoil, dont do it.
    
    3. Seems you've already called Rick, which is my last piece
       of advice.
    
    
    The guy at the marine place, right on not using alcohol.
    
    Sounds kinda wrong on rebuilding just yet, water shouldn't clog
    the jets, unless the fuel was so crudded up, that he saw something
    we or you have not.
    
    Is $250 kinda high, depends what is hourly rate is.
    
    If your concerned about doing it yourself let Rick do it,
    he knows his stuff.
    
    JIm

    You might have gotten water into the gas via condensation instead of 
    water leaking directly into the tank.  If it is a metal tank,
    condensation contributed to some of the water anyway.  You can put
    the expensive type of drygas into the tank to eliminate the water
    problem in the future.
    
    I learned the old gas lesson the hardway.  I properly stored a tank
    of gas/oil mix over the winter WITH drygas and fuel stabilizer.  In
    the Spring the engine wouldn't run well on it at all.  It took mixing
    in fresh fuel/oil to straighten things out.  You had water in there
    too, no wonder you have engine problems.  But.... live and learn.
    
    Yup... go to Rick.
    
    Jeff
    

	I definitely won't try the re-threading myself.  Either I'll
	have Rick do it, or a mechanic friend.  Depends on what Rick
	has to say later...

	On the fuel/water problem, I'm hearing 2 opinions: a little 
	alcohol based stuff is OK, or use *no* alcohol.  	

	Is the good drygas (eg, STP) *not* alcohol based ?  I know that 
	NAPA auto parts sells drygas but it's 99.9% (or so) pure alcohol - it
	worked great in my car when I got bad gas, and I thought I "bought the 
	good stuff", at least that's what they said at the parts store.

	What kind of drygas would you recommend ?
	

re:                      <<< Note 1071.7 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>

>    You might have gotten water into the gas via condensation instead of 
>    water leaking directly into the tank.  If it is a metal tank,

	The water came from a plastic tank that I basically used for
	storing excess fuel - when I had a 1/3 tank or something left
	in my boat tank (metal) I'd pour it into the plastic one, then
	get a fresh 6 gal w/ a full can of Johnson oil.  If I had a 1/2
	tank after running the new gas, I'd add the 1/3 from the plastic
	tank and be all set.    I think I'm gonna use your method of
	filling whatever gas I'd need, like 2/3 new gas, and add 2/3 can
	of the oil, rather than the switch routine.  

	The problem was probably a combo of condensation *and* water
	intake through leaks.  That gas tank is gonna be disposed of now...

> live and learn.

	That's the moral to the story ;-)    

	Ken

    
    You took the engine across from "Lics" restaurant?
    
    If you never did any tapping before, let someone who has
    do it for you. Best way is to pull the head, but I've done
    a few without. I've got/had and extension on my air hose
    nozzle that would go inside the cylinder and anything in
    there would come flying out. The chips made are much larger
    than the gap between the piston and cyl. wall.
    
    Fred
    
    

    Again, standard dis-claimer in affect regarding my lack of experience
    with outboards.
    
       From what I have read, alcohol can attack the rubber, etc.,
    in your carb and fuel lines when allowed to sit for a period of time.
    If you are going to use all of the tank quickly and then refill with
    fresh gas that doesn't have drygas in it, then I would expect few
    problems if done only once.  I do not know if the alcohol in your gas
    will cause the oil mixed in to come out of suspension or spark knock
    or any other problems unique to a two stroke motor.  I have used it in
    my four stroke motor with no problems.  Again, Rick W. can give you an
    honest, knowledgeable answer from an "outboarder's" viewpoint.
    Wayne

re:                     <<< Note 1071.9 by MPGS::MASSICOTTE >>>
    
>    You took the engine across from "Lics" restaurant?
    
I just called Hazard Marine, didn't bring it there.  It's located
near a public entrance to Webster Lake, and the police station,
near the intersection of Rt's 12 and 16(?).  I'm pretty sure there's
a restaurant near the place, which is on small side street. 

Do you know of the place ?

Ken

	A small-motor mechanic friend of mine looked at the 
	Evinrude last night.  He said he could easily re-thread
	it if I remove the head.  It appears that removing the
	head would just involve removing a bunch of bolts; my
	worry would be snapping a bolt - it's seen a lot of salt
	water but it's "clean" under the cover.  

	If/when I remove the bolts, does the head come off easily ?
	Any flying parts to watch out for ?

	I also asked him about the alcohol/drygas issue.  He said he'd
	never use drygas (alcohol) in a 2 stroke motor.  The reason	
	is that alcohol and oil don't mix, much like water and gas
	don't mix (which I'm aware of ;-).  So there's a possibility
	that alcohol would be fired up in the cylinders - if enough
	alcohol it would burn real hot and could fry a piston.
	For 4 stroke motors, the alcohol mixes with the gas and it's
	not a problem.

	He said Cumberland Farms discontinued alcohol in gas because
	of problems with people using it for 2 stroke motors, even
	though the pumps were labeled "not for 2 stroke motors".

	His explanation seemed to make a lot of sense.

	As for the jets, he'd just recommend cleaning em and draining
	the carbs, which is no big deal.	

	Still waiting to hear back from Rick, when he returns.

	Ken

First, get a fresh tank of fuel and hook it up. The carbs on that motor have 
little screws at the bottom on the bowls. Remove these screws and drain out 
the water. Pump the bulb in the fuel line until all the fuel lines have been 
flushed out thru the carbs. Replace the screws. Open the fuel pump cover and 
clean out the screen if necessary. Replace screen and cover.

Pop the head off. Nothing special, just remove the bolts. A machine shop can
fix the threads for less than $20.

Put the head back on (20-25 FT-lbs I think, can verify if need be).
New plugs. Drop the boat in the water and fire her up. It may take
a few minutes to get any remaining junk out.

Rebuilding the carbs is unnecessary unless lots of junk got past the two screen
filters (unlikely). Water will not adversly affect the carbs unless the
exposure was over a long period of time (many months). 

DON'T USE ALCOHOL or DRYGAS! Although todays fuel systems are made to withstand
exposure to these products the original equipment manufactured in the 70's
was not.

Good luck,

Doug.

    	I had the same problem with exception of the stripped plug at 
    	the beginning of the season (when did the ice go out?).
    	My engine is a Merc, but I doubt your problem and fix is much
        different. I removed the filter bowl and cleaned it, removed the
    	gas line and emptied it. Changed the gas in the tank. Hooked
    	everything back up and it ran fine. Total cost about $10 for new
        gas and oil.

    	Rich 

    Folks,
    
      Here's what my experience has been....
    
     I sunk my old outboard boat 6 years ago... The 1970 Evinrude 115 was
    underwater for about 2 days ( I was out of town ). The OMC repair
    manual actually had a "what to do when your motor plays submarine"
    section, split into sunk while running and sunk while not running. The
    short version is the recommended taking out the plugs, putting rubbing 
    alcohol or dry gas in through the carbs and cranking the engine for
    a while to dry it out. Then try to hook up good gas and try to start
    it. My motor started in about an hour and ran many many hours after
    that.  
    
     I live on a lake in NC, and we leave pontoon boats in the water all
    year. We ( considering a group of 10-15 boat owners with various make
    outboards ) have had water in gas problems before ( rain, condensation,
    bad fillup). We typicallly put a container of drygas in every 5 or 6
    weeks to keep the fuel systems "dry".  Mix according to the product
    recommendations - meaning 1/2 a bottle for a 6 gallon tank. None of us
    have had any problems over the past 5-6 years, but that's not to say we
    won't in the future.
    
     Over the 8 years I owned that motor, I also ended up stripping out 
    2 spark plug threads. I am fairly handy and was able to heli-coil the
    threads. They lasted another 2 years with no problems. I took the head 
    off to do the work ( it's a 1/2-1 inch thick  cap on the cylinder with 
    between 8 and 12 bolts to remove ). The heli-coil kit was probably $10-20.
    At the time I never thought to price a replacement head, but they may not 
    be very expensive and would be an unbolt / bolt on fix. If a shop would 
    fix it for $20 that would also be a fair option.
    
     Good luck!
    
     Chuck  

    Just a reminder to avoid warping the head.
    
    Make sure you understand the sequence for tightening the head bolts,
    ie; tighten bolts on opposite sides of the head alternately.  Don't
    tighten any single bolt all at once; go thru the sequence three or four
    times, starting with just a little more than finger tight.  
                                              
    Carl

    We (boating notesfilers) had a long discussion about a year ago
    in this file regarding using drygas in 2 strokes.  Rick Wilson was in
    on the discussion and, as I remember said it was ok as long as you use
    ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL rather than methyl alcohol.  I have used isopropyl
    alcohol in my 1978 25 HP Johnson fuel/oil mix with no problems.  Rick
    also said to run PREMIUM fuel in your 2 stroke because the current 
    cheap regular gas tends to cause ping and destroy pistons. 
    
    As far as Cumberland Farms discontinuing GASAHOL because of 2 stroke
    problems:
    
    1.  Isn't gasahol about 1/3 alcohol rather than the much reduced
    concentration created by using drygas?
    
    2.  Does gasahol have methyl or isopropyl alcohol in it?  If its 
    methyl alcohol that explains the problems.
    
    Pop the cylinderhead off....... RIIIIIGHT!  What will probably happen is
    you will break one or more head bolts and the head WON'T pop right off,
    you will have to pry it off being VERY careful not to damage the head
    gasket surfaces. 
    
    Not to be negative but if you realize that the above is probably what
    will happen and are prepared to deal with it you won't go into this
    unprepared.
    
    As far as using compressed air injection into the cylinder while you 
    rethread...... I would think turbulance would NOT blow all the
    particles out as you tap.... and many of the particles would have to be
    small.... small enough to get between the piston side wall and
    cylinder.
    
    Jeff

    
    RE: .11,  Yup, know the place well.  
              Nope.  Don't recommend it at all.
    
    Fred

I have done helicoil's on aircraft engines we pt grease on the tap.  Most if not 
all of the aluminum filings stuck to the grease.  If you're careful you shouldn't
have a problem

Gordon

 
 >   Pop the cylinderhead off....... RIIIIIGHT!  What will probably happen is
 >   you will break one or more head bolts and the head WON'T pop right off,
 >   you will have to pry it off being VERY careful not to damage the head
 >   gasket surfaces. 
 >   
 >   Not to be negative but if you realize that the above is probably what
 >   will happen and are prepared to deal with it you won't go into this
 >   unprepared.
  

Head bolts are not under a lot of torque for their size for this motor. They
should spin out pretty easily. One technique to use, if you suspect corrosion
has cemented the threads, is to first try to TIGHTEN the bolts to break the
threads free. I would only do this if moderate pressure does not break the
bolt loose in the 'off/left' direction.  If you should choose to tighten them
first, you should only allow the smallest amount of travel to occur.

I've work on many of these engines (and I have some spare parts if you need 'em)
and I've never had a head bolt cease, even in the salt water motors where
the water jackets are severely corroded.

After the bolts are out you can use a plastic tap hammer to break the seal
and loosen the head.

Now, the lower ends of these beasties are a different story 8-}.

Piece of cake!

First off, I spoke to Rick Wilson tues night - he's doing well, still 
looking for a job, but sure sounded relaxed ;-)  He misses Notes and
says Hello to everyone here.   I also gave him an update of recent
topics, especially this one ;-)

Rick's opinion of the carburator rebuild recommendations from the 
2 Evinrude marinas is that it's NOT necessary and that they are just 
trying to make a buck, saying this is what gives marinas/mechanics a
bad name.   He recommended draining the carbs and using isopropyl-based
drygas, not a lot, just a little (3-4 oz/tank) in the new gas mixture 
to deal with any remaining water.   

On the spark plug helicoil, he says it's not necessary to pull the head,
which is what Holland Marina also said.  He offered to do the work, but
I opted to get it done yesterday @ Holland Marina, since it's so close
to my house and since a mechanic friend said they are good mechanics there.
Cost me $35.00 for new threads/helicoil, and Rick said they'd still be
making a buck - can't complain though. They used grease to trap any metals.
So that problem is solved (I hope).

I plan on dealing with the carb and have it running by the weekend.
I'll post the progress (or questions ;-) as soon as I know more.

Then to deal with the gash in the hull :-/

re: Chuch Schmidt

My owners manual also has a "Sunk Motor" section!  I never thought of checking
that.  Curious to see what they recommend.   

re: Jeff

Breaking bolts was definitely one of my fears.  I've done it before on
the car - what a pain!   There's zero corrosion under the "hood", but 
I'm glad I don't have to deal with removing the head now.

re: Fred M - Hazard Marine

Interesting... I'll deal with Rick from now on.

Thanks,
Ken

I got the motor started this weekend!   I did as Rick and others
suggested: removed the carb covers (2), which took all of 2 mins, 
and basically drained each carb with the drain screw at the bottom
of each.   Very easy to do.  I also drained all hoses that I could 
get at to try and remove as much water as possible from the system.
It was *mostly* water in each carb!  

After I did this once, the motor wouldn't fire - all plugs still had 
some water droplets on them.  So I basically kept cleaning the plugs
during each "start iteration", and drained the carbs again (twice total).  
That's all it took.  After the water was removed, the motor fired right
up and seems to be fine.  Hopefully it will continue to run great when
I get it out on the water (once the hole is fixed).

I'm also running with about 3 oz of drygas in 6 gallons of gas, which
Rick recommended.

One more rec from Rick Wilson:  use anti-sieze compound on the plug
with the helicoil to avoid pulling the helicoil out.  Sounds like good
advice.

Thanks for all the help!

Ken