Conference vicki::boats

    Personally, I'd steer clear because it's a Sea Ray ( Bay-Ray,
    Sea-liner) !  
    
    I have heard read that the Alpha drives were not designed to handle the
    torque developed by the big blocks that are now so common.  I
    understand that this problem was the genesis for the Bravo drive.  
    
    Wish you luck ...
    
    
    Tom
    

    I didn't know that Sea Rays had a bad rap.  Thought they were
    considered to be an above-average boat with a good resale value.
    Your comparing them to a Bay-Liner was quite a shocker.
    What have you heard that has turned you off about Sea Rays?
    
    
    

    I wouldn't own another set of Merc I/Os in salt water. I had two moored
    in salt water and every year would lose something to electrolysis. The
    zinc would go fast and have to be continually changed. I lost power
    trim cylinders,etc. We do however, leave boats in year round in
    Seattle. Find something with inboards like a 30 SeaRay Weekender,
    you'll be happier.

I've got an alpha-1 on my 25' Searay Sundancer, and have never had any 
structural problems with it that weren't attributable to my operation
(hit a log in Puget Sound once...THEN I had structural failures!).

I kept it in salt water for two years down in Alameda.  I've got Mercathode on 
it, which may have helped the corrosion problem. It still went through the
zinc pretty fast (I'd replace it about every 4 months).  No electrolysis
damage that I or my mechanic have found.

If the engines are bigger than 260 hp, I'd be wary of Alpha-1s.  The Bravo
was specifically designed to handle the load of the 454.  

'Course, if you don't push 'em, and you maintain them well, you'll probably
never have trouble with them.

Searay remains a quality name in my book.  

Jeff

    I don't think the Sea Ray hull will be a problem. But when
    you say Big Blocks, you say 454 PIGS. There gonna like their
    juice "big time". On the Alpha drives, "if you got the bucks,
    you got the beach", i.e. you got the money to fix e'm, there's
    no problem. But if they developed the "bravo" drive to handle
    the "big blocks" that should be enough of a message.
    
    Please don't misunderstand the tone of this reply.
    
    I'm not a Chevy block fan, nor a Sea Ray fan, nor an outdrive
    fan. To me the three are a bad combination.
    
    Well i wasn't gonna, but before i have to take the ----,
    
    I'll expalin, to me Chevy's arn't that reliable, especially
    after Mercruiser gets done with them. A Sea Ray is to fluffer-
    nutter, a lot anodized aluminum, too dam much carpeting on the
    interior all over the place, (its cheap, and cheap looking, cause 
    they don't want to take the time to put in gel-coated fiberglass)
    Outdrives in salt water are a nightmare, too much maintenance,
    they shold be torn down every year, and seals should be replaced
    
    
JIm, (who has a pair of Chrysler inboards) 
    
    p.s. see if you can find one with a pair of diesels, will blow the 
    doors of the mercruisers..

This is beginning to sound like the Merc vs. OMC outboard topic.  Some of
the advice given here is right on the money, some I feel is a bit off...


RE: Note 808.1
>>  Personally, I'd steer clear because it's a Sea Ray ( Bay-Ray,
>>  Sea-liner) !  

  Sea Rays are NOT Bayliners.  They come out of different factories, intended
  for a different segment of the market.  This is like saying that Cadillacs
  are junk because GM also built the Chevy Vega.

>>  I have heard read that the Alpha drives were not designed to handle the
>>  torque developed by the big blocks that are now so common.  I understand 
>>  that this problem was the genesis for the Bravo drive.  
    
  True.  The Alpha was designed for the small block, but early installations
  were also used with big blocks.  The Bravo came along later specifically
  for use with the big block.  I don't think you'll find new boats being
  built with big blocks and Alphas any more.  Especially not 32' boats
  intended for ocean use.

RE: Note 808.3  
>> I wouldn't own another set of Merc I/Os in salt water. I had two moored
>> in salt water and every year would lose something to electrolysis. The
>> zinc would go fast and have to be continually changed. 

  Zincs that continue to wear out quickly and severe electrolysis problems
  are usually a symptom of improper (or lack of) grounding.  This is a sign 
  of a defective installation, and not necessarily a bad design.  Merc 
  continues to be the number one seller of sterndrives, must be some reason 
  for it.

>> Find something with inboards like a 30 SeaRay Weekender, you'll be happier.
  
  To each his own...  Linda's previous boat was a 25' Baja - apparently they
  know what style of boat they like.


RE:  Note 808.5  

>> when you say Big Blocks, you say 454 PIGS. There gonna like their
>> juice "big time". 
  
  That's an understatement!  Hopefully Linda and her husband had enough 
  experience from their Baja so that they're aware of this.  

>> if they developed the "bravo" drive to handle the "big blocks" that
>> should be enough of a message.
  
  'Nuff said.  (Jim, I'm finding myself agreeing with you more often.  What's
  going on?)   8^)


Rick

    I'm currently repowering my boat which has a MerCruiser outdrive. 
    It is older, but exactly the same design as the alpha.  I would
    never consider another alpha, or mercruiser for that matter.

    Here are some of the problems I've encountered:

    The raw water passages in the outdrive are convoluted, undersized
    and prone to plugging with salt.  There is a single access port
    located inside the outdrive to clean these passages.  The bolts
    for this access port live in the exhaust path, so they're subject
    to hot salt spray while the engine is operating.  (This is the way
    car manufacturers test corrosion.)

    The alpha outdrive is the only drive still being manufactured with
    the raw water pump still in the outdrive; all the other
    manufacturers have the common sense to put the pump in an
    accessible place.  (Even the mercruiser bravo drive.) Although for
    1991, mercruiser has a vane impeller that is supposed to reduce
    recommended service frequency from the current one year, to two;
    it's still a stupid design.  On the Volvo, you remove 8 machine
    screws from the pump cover to replace the impeller.  To replace
    the alpha, drain the gear oil, remove the outdrive, split the
    upper and lower outdrive sections, remove some machine screws and
    expose the impeller.  So, if you're paying someone to do this, add
    another zero to the check.   Mercruiser is the only one with a
    cheap plastic pump housing, as well.

    The exhaust manifold and riser are held together with mild steel
    bolts, many of them in blind holes.  Again, impossible to service
    after salt water exposure.  Any reputable manufacturer would use
    stainless steel bolts.  Yamaha does.  Volvo does.

    I have fresh water cooling and mercathode, and still everything
    suffers from electrolysis.  Tilt/trim hoses last 1-2 years before
    they're eaten through.  I could probably charge batteries from the
    activity if I had a stainless prop.

    The trim indicator is junk, and lives in water.  Volvo, for
    instance, is gear driven and is inside the boat.  The trim
    limit switch is the same bad design.  The plastic covering
    on the wiring to the switch easily fails from flexing (from
    turning and tilting).  Then it's easy for capillary action
    to pull salt water into the wiring.  Oh, and easy to replace
    too -- step 1) remove outdrive; step 2) remove engine --
    you get the idea...

    One advantage of mercruiser is that there are lots of them and
    they all break, so there are lots of aftermarket parts available.

    In my opinion, mercruiser exists to supply engines to boat
    builders to use in packages.  Situations where the customer is
    primarily concerned with 1) how much are the payments and 2) what
    color are the hull graphics.  THAT'S WHY THEY SELL A LOT OF
    THEM.  NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE ANY GOOD.

    If anyone wants a good deal on a mercruiser 485 and outdrive, let
    me know.  It's in EXCELLENT condition.

    Wow.
    
    I'm glad I have an outboard.

    Re .6
    
    'tis true that Bayliner and Sea Ray are manufactured at different
    plants.  However, since they merged under Brunswick, management
    philosophies and manufacturing techniques have cross-pollinated. 
    Certainly, Bayliner showed the boating industry how to take advantage
    of economies of scale.  Unfortunately, the techniques now employed at
    both divisions are not the bell-wether of quality.
    
    Given a choice (and the cash to back up my convictions) I'd gladly 
    take a 1980 - 1985 Sea Ray with Mercruisers.
    
    Recognizing that my convictions and opinions are not universally held,
    it is still possible to enjoy our sport without regard for a friends
    choice of manufacturer.  
    
    Looking forward to the warmer weather,
    
    Tom

    <I wrote this reply prior to the addition of the last few replies 
    so it may appear a little out of sync but most of it should still apply)	
    
    	We seem to be negative on everything lately don't we, 
    perhaps its the cabin fever syndrome. :^)
	I still am willing to give manufacturers some slack. For 
    example, salt water is tough on anything so I wouldn't zero in on 
    any particular manufacturer, just make sure you replace your zincs 
    when they need it. What I'm saying is I don't know of any reason 
    that OMC or Volvo or ... would have any better or worse resistance 
    to corrosion than any of the others. Also, electrolysis is more 
    likely an electrical problem with the boat, not the motor design.
	I do however zero in on design specifics. If the Alpha drive 
    has a bad rep perhaps they should be avoided. I don't have any 
    experience or knowledge of them.
	Although I am an outboard fan most of the time I share
    Jim's opinion favoring inboards vs I/O's on bigger boats...less 
    hardware exposed to the ravages of mother nature. If you really are 
    into reliability I'd say look for twin inboard dei$el$.
	As far a Sea Ray is concerned, I too have heard they are an 
    above average boat. Not my kind of boat (I'm a fisherman) but probably 
    very good for what they are designed for. I know people with them who 
    are very happy and would buy another Sea Ray.
	As a parting opinion, I have always assumed that when you buy 
    a previously owned boat you don't get all your choices; that remains 
    the privelege of the new boat buyer. This means that most likely any 
    purchase will require analysis to determine the nearest practical fit 
    to your vision of the ideal boat. Whether or not the boat is I/O vs 
    inboard or Brand X vs Brand Y is only a part of the analysis; a series 
    of choices where there are very few absolutes.
    Good Luck,
    Paul  

    Paul, let me add several things.
    
    
    electrolysis is a problem with the boat, yes, but it might be
    you Neighbors..
    
    
    
    The new boat buyer does have more choices than the Used Boat
    buyer, however, NOT IF YOU BUY a Brunswick Product.
    Motor Choice Implied Here, any color YOU want as long as
    its BLACK.
    
    JIm.

    To all of you who have responded to my original note, I say, thank you.
    I've gotten a big kick out of reading your responses - you guys get
    so excited and emotional over boats, and so opinionated!  
    
    I don't mean to poke fun at you - I do understand the intensity level.
    After all, I'm married to a guy just like you!  "THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE 
    CAPTAIN", is his favorite response when I try to give him my two cents 
    worth on boating matters.
    
    Of course, I get pretty emotional myself, when we're about to outlay
    the big $$$$$.  My question is, will I ever get that 25' travel trailer
    I've been dreaming about?
    
    P.S.  There was some really useful information in your replies.
          My husband, Tom, sends his thanks, too.
    
    Regards,
    Linda

    
    
    Linda,  WE DELIVER...
    
    JIm.  who's opinionated, stubborn & thick-headed.
    

    Hi Linda,
    
        Just thought I'd add one more response.  As far as the Alpha Drives
    are concerned, the big difference in design on outdrives seems to
    center around the type of clutch.  Simply put, Volvo had a patent on
    what is called a cone clutch.  Mercruiser and OMC couldn't use this,
    so they adapted the lower units from their outboard lines which had
    a "dog" clutch.  When Volvo's patent ran out a few years ago, Merc and
    OMC jumped in with the Bravo and King Cobra outdrives utilizing the
    "cone" type clutch.  This clutch is appropriate under high torque
    loadings such as those imposed by big blocks/boats.  Yes, it's better.
    
    BUT, there's the other side. Supply is a function of Demand.  Even
    though many boats now are sold as package deals, in the 60's and 70's 
    boats were sold with blank transoms and the dealer could install any
    type of outdrive.  I am not a Mercruiser fan (I've owned Mercury
    outboards, OMC outboards, and a Mercruiser I/O) or a fan of anything
    else.  Mercury/Brunswick/Mercruiser/etc... has to pay the warranty
    costs.  If the product is bad, it costs money and loses customers. 
    There is no incentive to build a product that will be looked upon
    poorly when compared to Volvo, Yamaha, OMC, etc...  There are so many
    Mercruisers because it is a good product, and it is widely available.
    
    The same for the Sea-Ray.  A high quality product that has an
    established reputation...Recent trends in the market towards mass
    produced "package" boats (bayliners, Maxxums, etc..) has put great
    pressure on the quality boat builders to reduce costs
    (translation=quality, for the most part), but Sea Ray has not fallen
    prey to this (yet).
    
    Anyways, I think this an unbiased opinion.  The Alpha is not inferior,
    because Mercruiser could not afford it to be.  The Sea-Ray is not
    inferior for the same reason.  Both have established themselves at the
    upper end of the boating spectrum, and would be stupid to produce
    products that don't.  If these products fail, it is almost always due
    to the actions stated in that neat little warranty disclaimer that all
    manufacturers use: "void if due to Neglect, Misuse, modifications,
    etc".  Anything used in Salt Water requires an enormous amount of care.
    Give it that care and it will work....
    
    just my opinion... :-)
    
    Peter

    RE: .14,
    
    While realizing that this is your opinin, and i do respect that.
    
    However, i would like to take issue with 2 of your opinions.
    
    Sea Ray is the 2nd most mass produced boat on the market,
    i won't argue, the hull is good, but they still have a way
    to go with their hardware. They just recent got away from
    slag crome plated metal. Take a look at the pre 85 Sea Ray's
    for a clear definition.
    
    As for Mercruiser, the reason they are the largest, some mfgr's
    had no choice. The price of an add on means a lot to a 
    hull mfgr.  There are much better alternatives to Mercruisers
    today and Brunswick is about to find out there not the only 
    store in town.
    
    
    JIm

    A recent issue of Powerboat Reports also took issue with hardware on new
    SeaRays - seems that the backing plates for much of the stuff is
    glassed over or otherwise put in inaccessible places.  
    

    I've been on a 27' and 30' SeaRAy. In both cases i've been 
    helping these guys with either repairs or maintenance.
    
    In both cases, they were I/O driven, the biggest problem
    i have is the shi**ty access you have to most all things
    in their engine area. They jam everything in there, including
    2 engines. The 30' had a back up in the holding tank,
    which was impossible to get to. In addition to that his
    bilge pump in that area died. YOu could get at it,
    
    so we disconnected it and left it there, and put another one
    in. 
    
    Beyond my other complaints, i guess access is another one.
    
    Whether you do your own, or have it done, time is money,
    and if someone has to struggle to get acess, its gonna cost
    you.
    
    
    JIm.

    I had an Alpha drive on a 230HP 305 block chevy (1986). The boat
    was used in the salt 3 years but trailered. I trashed 3-4 props on that
    drive (aluminum) and never has a problem with the drive itself.
    On the 305 block it was a great set up. Now onto boat #2. I have
    a 25' grady with an OMC 330HP 460 ford block (yes a big one). The
    cobra drive has been nothing but trouble. It has been rebuilt 3
    times in 2 seasons. It has the dog clutch design (and redesign...).
    I am praying the new gears and shifter design finally make it right.
    The point is the clutch design is not right for the HP and torque of
    the big block. Steve Joyce has the bravo on a 330HP merc (454 block)
    cone clutch, I do not think he has had problem.
    
    Make up you own mind.
    
    Bruce

    We own it!  Hey, what can I do - he's the captain!
    
    See ya on Narragansett Bay - just look for the blue and white blur!
    
    Ciao!  Good boating to you all!
    
    Linda
    

    Congratulations !!!

As an old Sea Ray owner, the boat is a `77, I'm, a `55 model, I feel that this
Sea Ray bashing is simply guilt by association and opinions from those that can
only afford and/or stomach "the best".

Someone likened the Bay Liner to Sea Ray comparison to the Chevrolet Vega and
Cadillac copmarison. That doesn't even go far enough. Chevrolet and Cadillac 
are divisions of GM that share a common magament structure, Sea Ray and Bay 
Liner are basically seperate entities owned by the conglomerate. A more accurate
comparison to the automotive world would be to compare Ford to Jaguar, or Chev-
rolet to SAAB or Lotus. The big US companies own the smaller European ones (or a
good chunk of them) and they continue to operate as they have with cash reserves
for investment not previously available to them with availability of economies 
of scale if it makes sense to use them.

Because Sea Ray is such a large maker of boats of different types it is impossi-
ble to generalize about one particular model fitted in a particular manner to 
all other models and types. I just got done drooling over a 250 Weekender that
truely impressed me in every manner possible for the price. No it wasn't as good
as the 29' Sunseeker I'd die for if a ghost could enjoy boating, but it's price
is 1/3 of of the Sunseeker's and it's quality was much more than 1/3 as good. 
Access to everything seemed to be excellent. Yes, the backing plates for the
deck hardware was behind carpet, but since I've skinned my knuckles on the bolts
on mine manny times I didn't seem to mind the bloodless, painless installation.

I saw a ton of boats at the boat show, in it's price class I didn't see anything
that I could say was categorically better than the Sea Rays I've looked at 
recently. The other boat I like in this class is the Cruisers, Inc.

john