Conference vicki::boats

    is this the only model they have.. 175 hp. or do they have bigger
    one's?????????????????
    
    i had wondered where they went, i had not heard much about these
    engines for awhile.  
    
    i would like more info, anyone have any...
    
    JIm.

    The wankel, or rotary engine has been in use in the Mazda RX7 since
    1979. Originally a 12A enigine designation, Mazda bumped the
    displacement in 1986 and re-issued the engine as a 13B. The 13B
    had been used in the Mazda Cosmos prior to use in the RX7. 
    
    Reliabilty had always been excellent, gas mileage very acceptable.
    Mazda has also built, or at least has working prototypes of a 3
    rotor rotary. The 12A and 13B are only 2 rotor. The engines are
    known for their smooth and free revving power bands, an absolute
    blast to drive. Low end torque wasn't bad either. Moving parts are
    limited to 1 crankshaft, and 2 rotors, (and 2 distributor drives).
    No valves, cams, lifters. 
    
    The 12A was figured to be about 75 cubic inches, the 13B was about
    90, if you want to rate rotaries in cubic inches. Aftermarket suppliers
    are able to get a reliabe 210 hp from the 13B, although it doesn't
    pass legal limits for car emissions. 
                              
    Should make a compact powerplant, although it won't replace a V8
    for low end punch out of the hole.
                                      
    ~jeff

    Long before there was an RX7, Mazda was using the rotary engine(named
    after it's inventer, Wankel) in several other car models.  Like the
    other major internal combustion engine designs(Otto and Diesel), the 
    rotary combustion engine design originated in Germanic Europe.  It was
    the Japanese, however, true to form, who grabbed the ball and ran with 
    it.  I don't remember when Mazda introduced the RX1, but it was never
    succesfull due to reliability problems.  The RX2 was the first hot
    machine from Japan.  I remember racing one with my V8 powered Ford
    Falcon, which could easily defeat any of the more common British sport
    cars of the day.  I pulled ahead of the Mazda going up a hill, but when
    I stopped quick at an intersection, the other driver lost it and blew
    his rotary away on my trailer hitch.  It was a sad sight, his car was
    totaled.  He had to climb out the window to yell at me.  I noticed
    that he still had the sticker on the window.  My car had a slight
    scratch on the bumper.  My trailer hitch and ball took out the radiator
    and then blew a hole in the rotary casing exposing the rotar.  It was
    my first view inside a Wankel.  There was water, oil, glass and parts
    all over the road.  Neither one of us admitted to racing, but he
    obviously hit me from behind and the cop gave him a ticket.  I went
    to work.  
    		The RX2's didn't fare all that well in the market place,
    but the door was finally opening.  Mazda built a conventionaly powered
    car during the high gas price days of the mid seventies called the GLC, 
    and it was probably responsible for saving the company and funding the
    final development of the Wankel.  It really was a Great Little Car.
    It wasn't until the RX3 that Mazda finally started getting a handle on 
    the rotar seal problems that had plagued the Wankel from the beginning.
    Anyone remember the ads for the RX3?  They came out around 1973 or so,
    you know, the one showing the car sitting at the end of the twin
    flaming streaks of tire rubber marks.  The RX3 was still a thirsty
    engine, and so did not win any praise for economy during the fuel
    shortages of the seventies.  It did however, win the hearts of the
    enthusiast motoring public.  Here was a little car with a big heart,
    capable of humbling large, catalyst-choked, maltuned V8 engines
    which were suffering at the hands of inept engineers sadled with
    the task of dealing with government regulations dealt by uneducated
    beurocrats.  It wasn't until many years later that Detroit and the
    rest of the conventional thinking automotive manufacturers got their
    driveability act together.  Meanwhile, Mazda's determination was
    driving the Wankel to perfection.  The fuel mileage was coming into
    line, and the early reliability and performance problems were gone.
    		Now we are facing the future of high fuel prices and
    smaller and lighter vehicles.  The gas turbine engine is due to make
    a comeback.  Major advances in ceramic technology in the last decade
    have solved many of the inefficiencies of the gas turbine engine.
    Even the Wankel looks big and clumsy in the power to weight ratio
    aspect when compared to a modern gas turbine.  I'm willing to bet
    that if we don't get a turbine to market, that the Japanese will,
    using our technology.  Companys like Honda and Mazda are continualy
    proving that conventional thinking is dead...finaly.  World class
    thinking is dominating the marketplace.  The consumer will benefit in
    the end.  The consumer is part of the world class corporation...
    We need to get our manufacturing prowess together to solve the few
    remaining problems that are causing the high cost of building a
    turbine.  If we don't do it, the Japanese surely will, just as they
    will take away our computer manufacturing business if we are not
    carefull.  Then where would all of us decies be?
    
    		So, let's get it together folks so that we can keep on
    boating beyond 2000 in ever improving products of our own design and
    craftsmanship.
    
    		Don

Any other comments? Yeah, why didn't I think of that? A Wankel rotary has many
features that would make it a very promising marine engine, it is amazing that
it hasn't been done already. I might suspect that the Mazda rotaries might be
a little "light weight" in any number of ways for marine use, but that doesn't
negate the basic promise of the design. A purpose built engine would have lots
benefits that accrue to compact size and lightweight in a boat! A gas turbine 
would be very nice of course, but someday the dreams begun in the early 60's 
may yet come true. Wasn't the future supposed to be here in 1970? Where is it?

john

    Hello Paul,
    
    this is one of those notes I just couldn't resist. Reason? I still own
    my 1985 RX7 with the 13B engine. I wouldn't give it up if someone
    offered me the same price I boughht it for five years ago. The previous
    notes talk to power to weight ratios. They are quite correct. Look at
    an 85 Nissan 300 and compare the engine size/weight. The Wankel will,
    at the very least, stay up even with one of these from a hole shot to
    top end. The major reason is the weight differential.
    
    In the late '85 models they changed from normally asperated to fuel
    injection. I had problems for a few years until they figured out the
    electronics running the whole mess. I had to have a new "computer"
    installed three times before they finally got their act together. The
    parts alone were costing $750 at the time. Fortunately the regional
    manager understood the meaning of a happy customer and all work was
    covered under warrentee. The message is, watch out for late 85, 86, and
    87 fuel injected Wankels.
    
    The one nagging problem the Wankel has always had is noise. Boy, are
    they loud! I have a pre-muffler, catalytic converter, post muffer, and
    a muffler. It sounded great when it was new, but now I am closing in on
    needing an entirely new exhaust system. Amazing how much noise can come
    out of small holes. This problem has dogged the Wankel since its
    inception. I would suspect there would be some special problems to be
    overcome to get this thing to an acceptable, and comfortable level.
    
    I too have heard Mazda is working on expanding the Wankel from two
    chambers to three. Ah, the stuff dreams are made of. The latest rumor
    is they have stopped developement and will not be introducing this new
    power plant in the '92's. 
    
    Would I be interested if someone fit a Wankel into a boat? You bet!!!
    
    --Harlan

	Well they used to have 'em in Snowmobiles !  In the late 60's early
	70's Arctic Cat used Wankel engines (303's I think) in it's Panther
	line.  If I remember correctly they were very noisy, rarely broke
	down (at least compared to it's 2-stroke cousins), and had great
	low-end tourque.  It had no top-end however (probably 45 MPH).

	You still see 'em once in a while as people used them to drag 
	trails.

	Chuck

    ...and don't forget motorcycles.  Suzuki? I believe made one for a real
    brief time just after their 3 cylinder watercooled 2 stroke, but before
    they started building their 4 cylinder aircooled 4 stroke Honda 750
    clone.  They were real bizarro looing - like the engine stuff was
    styled to look like a jet turbine or something.  They're collector's 
    items, now.
    
    Carl

    Yeap, that was the mid-70s Suzuki RE5, a real tank.  -donmac