Conference vicki::boats

>    
>    Nissan is available mailorder and locally for what appear to be
>    good prices but I've never seen one on a boat.  Any experiences
>    with Nissan ?
>    
I think you'd find that Nissan is comparable to Yamaha from a 
quality/reliability standpoint.  Pricing is about 10-15% less.

These is a Nissan dealer that will do good service on the Cape (across the 
Bourne Bridge right in Rt28...forgot the name - might be Cape Cod Nissan.
Pricing is comparable to mail order and you get good service.

Carl

     
    Rick I find it interesting that you like Yamaha and Mercs but dont like
    Mariners, As a Mariner enigne is a plit product line of Yamaha's for
    smaller engines and Mercs for the larger engines. They mix and match
    different sizes for different years. It seams that your  little 2.2
    merc is also really a Yamaha in Merc discuise. Boy are they sneaky!!
    
    I was a Mariner Dealer before I decided  to sell out and get back into
    electronics.
    
    The other "Off Brand" you speak of, "Force" is the old Crysler  line
    that was sold off when Lee Iacocca took over.( No Profit  in and old
    design like that) They have Purty Colours but real ancient engineering.
    
    Another Off Brand  is  the  ESKA (Can you  say Sears &
    Robuck?Gamefisher) Brand that went chapter 11 in 1988. I picked up a
    brand new 15 Hp for well under $1,000. for my rubber dingy. Sears &
    Monky Ward now carry Crys/Force Engines.  
    
    A newcomer is the Travler Engine company. Fully  that they  just happen
    to have the same designs as Eska had, Just coincidence I guess??
    
    Basicly which ever engine you buy, unless it was designed for a 
    sailboat, you will need to change the prop to a high thrust prop.
    
    You may want to look into a Seagull? I think that Fred Darrow (Noter)
    has one for sale?
    
                                        Walt
    

    			<Here we go again>
    
    	This has been discussed on a few other occasions and if you peruse
    the directory you'll find them.
    	The perception of quality, reliability etc. has two schools of
    thought. One school is that only Japanese anything is any good and all
    US stuff is junk. The other, which I am a member of, is that in the case 
    of outboards the quality, reliabilty etc. of US models is on a par with 
    the Japanese. A possible exception to this is the Force engine which I 
    must admit I have a predjudice against.
    	I've owned Mercs, Mariners (one of which was a Merc and the other a
    Yamaha), Evenrudes and a Chrysler. The only one that I felt was cheaply
    designed was the Chrysler.
    	Now I'm not saying that "BUY US " is the only way to go. The
    Japanese are great inovators in the product features space and they tend 
    to come out with new wrinkles faster than US companies.  This often
    results in a particular model having a head start on some new
    inovation. I don't think that this is of particular importance in your
    application though....Hmm I wonder when they will come out with the first
    2 stroke diesel outboard.  :^)   
    	In the areas of quality and reliability I'd compare them as equal and 
    go for the features and price warranted by the application.       
    	A now a word or two from the worthy opposition.
    Paul  

    Hey  Paul
    
    Wonder no longer? I did not mention it due to the rarity of the beast,
    but West Germany does have a small 2 cycle outboard DEISEL. It has been
    available for a few years and are being imported on the west coast of
    USA in Seattle. I forget the importers name, but If  someone simply
    must have it.... Look it up in a Thomas Register.
    
    
    Also some Good ole' boy is making an electric outboard 15 hp down in
    dixie somewhere. About twice a year I get some promo trying to get me
    to handle his sales in the N.E. area. I usually just chuck them. Priced
    Way outof line for this market. Look like an Edsiel (sp) or Studeabaker
    to me.
    
    Personally, If I had a sailboat? I would not have an Iron horse unless
    it was an Inboard Desiel. But what can you expect from a guy that wants
    a Standard Stick shift in a Pick um up truck?
    
                                           Walt
    

re .4:

>>>    Personally, If I had a sailboat? I would not have an Iron horse unless
>>>    it was an Inboard Desiel. But what can you expect from a guy that wants
>>>    a Standard Stick shift in a Pick um up truck?
    
You must be assuming money is no object. The cost of buying and installing 
a small inboard diesel is several times (several thousand dollars) that of 
a small outboard engine.    

:-)

    Several years ago Practical Sailor had an article on outboards for
    sailboats. One of the key issues as I recall was the amount of thrust
    in forward and reverse. Some of the engines tested did poorly in
    reverse although there were add-on kits which would help.
    
    Here in Seattle Honda and Yamaha seem to have captured most of the
    market for small sailboat outboards. The Yamaha seems to be better
    designed for the sailboat market with a larger, slower turning prop.
    Unfortunatly Yamaha tends to be expensive, however if I were in a
    similar situation I would spring for it.
    
    	Howard

    Re -1>
    	Regarding Honda, one unique feature of their engines is that they
    are all 4 stroke cycle vs 2 stroke. This means no messing with oil/gas
    mixture but also means more weight per horsepower and less desirable
    torque characterisitcs. 
    
    Re several back>
    	I saw an interesting article in National Fisherman comparing deisel
    outboards for commercial applications... and I thought I was joking.
    Apparently there are offerings from a couple Italian manufacturers as
    well as a British firm and of course Yanmar. 
    	The most surprising thing to me was that they are all 4 stoke cycle
    engines. They are probably very reliable but I don't think I'm ready to 
    turn in my 200hp gas guzzler yet.
    

��    	The most surprising thing to me was that they are all 4 stoke cycle
��    engines. They are probably very reliable but I don't think I'm ready to 
��    turn in my 200hp gas guzzler yet.

    A two-stroke diesel would require a blower.  In addition to
    the extra cost, I would think the physical size of a blower
    would make the engine cowl enormous.

    There is a piece in this month's BOATING (I think) about a
    boat powered by twin Yanmar 27hp diesel outboards.  The
    article makes it sound like they are production engines.

    I'm going to try and get more information next month in
    Miami.

    	- Lee

re .8:

Huh? Why does a two-stroke diesel require a blower? Two-stroke spark-
ignition engines don't. Or do you mean a blower for cooling? Shouldn't need 
that either (that's one reason water was invented).

    re .9> 	
    	Might I jump in again...since I'm cramming for my USPS Engine
    Mainenance course exam. Two stroke deisels need a blower because they
    have no separate intake stroke and of course no carburator. An air pump
    injects the air at low pressure at the bottom of the power stroke.
    
    	Other than the air pump requirement, deisels lend themselves to 2
    stoke very well. Because the fuel is injected at precisely the right
    time for combustion and because the air pump clears out all the spent
    gases, no fuel is wasted. A two stoke gas engine wastes fuel while 
    clearing out the spent gases.
    
    Regards,
    Paul	Thanks_for_the_help_with_my_studies 

��Huh? Why does a two-stroke diesel require a blower? Two-stroke spark-
��ignition engines don't. Or do you mean a blower for cooling? Shouldn't need 
��that either (that's one reason water was invented).
    Sorry I wasn't clear -- a two-stroke-cycle diesel
    conventionally needs a low pressure input blower to scavenge
    the cylinder of combustion gases.  At the end of the power
    stroke, both intake an exhaust valves open and the cylinder
    is scavenged by the blower.  This is the method employed
    by most GM 2-stroke diesels.

    A two-stroke-cycle gasoline engine has the same need for
    combustion gases to be scavenged.  In the gas engine, this
    is done by using the 'crankcase' side of the pistons as an
    air pump.

    	- Lee

Re. "Another Off Brand  is  the  ESKA (Can you  say Sears &
     Robuck?Gamefisher) Brand that went chapter 11 in 1988."


Does anyone know any place to get parts for these? I am thinking about buying an
inflatable for going to and from shore rather than trying to fight the crowds,
wind, waves, tide, and current all the time. I don't really need the motor, but
an ESKA 3.0 (Cubic inches, not Hp) is included in the sale price. (Used stuff,
private sale, amount seems right for boat alone)

I am confused because the above seems to imply it is a Sears brand. But is so,
Sears didn't go chapter 11 in 1988. If it is another brand, what has Sears got
to do with it? The previous owner gave me the name of a "dealer" in R.I., but
that is kind of far away for me. 

The parts I'd be seeking are a throttle cable (or throttle cable/grip assembly)
and the kill switch.

john

    
    
    The throlle cables are usually pretty standard stuff and most
    replacements are avasilable from Morse Contrls- any decent boat dealer
    or supply shop should be able to handle them. The kill switch (is it
    the one on the throttle  that kills the engine when you thriottle down
    to stop?) is probbably a standard part. If it's on the engine- check if
    the local tecumseh dealer has one- the ESKA engine itself was made by
    Tecumseh . IF the switch is in the remote control- check with your
    local boat shop.
    
    BTW:- the Sears gamefisher motors were made by ESKA, at least
    the small air cooled ones were. ESKA is the co. that went chapter 11
    
    
    Dick

The kill switch is a button on the end of the tiller/handle/throttle.

It sounds as if I could match up the models I might be able to order the parts
from Sears (assuming that Sears still has access to the parts itself).

Thanks,

john

    Having been messing with boats and motors for better than 30 years,
    here's what I would do:
    
    1. Take the cable to Boat/US or Bliss or a similar "ship's store".
       you should be able to get a match-up or a replacement
    
    2. take the switch out and go to the same place- they also have
    waterproof pushbuttons and switches- and match one up that will fit 
    
     All the kill switch does is short out the points to ground- any
    Single pole, Single throw, normally opne pushbutton or switch should
    work.-Johnson and Evenrude used choke, (they had electric chokes)kill, and start pushbuttons like
    that for years.
    

    
    I have been looking at a 2hp Suzuki engine for my 14ft daysailor.
    
    They want $499 for a new one.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with Suzukis (large or small)?
    
    I have (had) a Johnson 2.5 1987 that destroyed the lower end and
    no sooner had I replaced $200 worth of gears and washers, it seized
    up for some reason? The engine has less that 15 hours time on it
    but was over the 2yr guarantee period by about 6 months. oh well.
    
    Now I am looking again.
    
    Bob
    
    
    

    I have a 3hp Evinrude on the back of my inflatable. Less than $500 at
    list price. I am very pleased with it. More data available if you like.
    
    John H-C

    Best prices I've seen for Nissan (Tohatsu) were less than $500 for a
    2.5 and around $550 for a 3.5.     This sounds a bit cheaper than the
    Suzuki prices and my own experience as well as what I've heard has been
    nothing but positive.   I think in general the Japanese small motors
    are excellent. 

    
    
    Look real hard at the Johnson/Evinrude motors in the samll Hp ranges-
    I belive you will find most of them are also Japanese motors- there
    iare some comments in one of the many notes in here about what Japanese
    manufacturers make waht size motors for the "american" brands.

    My 3hp Evinrude is an OMC motor. Johnson sells the same motor for less
    money (but they didn't carry it in Johnson in NH where I shopped and
    needed the motor that very day---I still paid less than I would have in
    MA with the sales tax added).
    They also sell a 3hp engine made by Suzuki or Yamaha.
    
    Noise level, the size of the integral gas tank, and the
    swivel-for-reverse feature (and the not-made-in-Japan nature of it),
    all drew me to that engine as well as the price.
    
    John H-C

    
    >My 3hp Evinrude is an OMC motor. Johnson sells the same motor for less
    >money (but they didn't carry it in Johnson in NH where I shopped and
    >needed the motor that very day---I still paid less than I would have in
    >MA with the sales tax added).
    
    	John,
    
    		Do you mean to say that you didn't mail your Ma sales tax
    	to the state on the purchase of that motor?
    
    		tsk, tsk, tsk......
    
    

    Looking for a 4-cycle, long-shaft, 9.9 or 10 hp outboard, preferably
    made in America by an American company.
    
    Can somebody point me toward a brand and model as well as a marina in
    MA or NH that sells that brand and model?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C 

John,

Just read in the latest issue of Bassmasters that a number of mfgrs are 
coming out with 4-cycle engines, including Mercury/Mariner.  Not sure if the 
Mercs are available yet, but there's lots of dealers around.

Let us know how you make out.

Joe

 John Ole Buddy,

 How's it going... As -1 says these are fairly new in popularity. 

 With the EPA imposing new restrictions on outboards etc... the 4 strokes
 are exceptional for many reasons:

  1) They burn much /much cleaner
  2) They are extremely gas efficient
  3) They are more powerful

 Presently there are very few models 9.9 & 50hps. The bad news is this year
 was a limited production (test run to see how they would sell). Alot of the
 motors are hard to get. pre-sold

 Mercury and Johnson (OMC) do make them from this side of the pond.
 Suziki/yamaha/honda/ have all jumped on the early band wagon.

 These motors will not replace the 150-300hp class high performance outbaords
 They will, however, in the future more than likely be the power plant of 
 choice for the 14-17 aluminum or lighter weight glass boats.

 - Dave

    re .22
    
    Saw a 9.9 4 cylce at Whites Marina in Norway Maine a couple of weeks
    ago.  Good people to deal with, bought my last two boats there.
    
    Don

    The performance figures I've seen in PM magazine show the four strokes
    way off the pace in acceleration and in top speed. They do much better
    in fuel efficiency and noise level.
    
    Ross

 I thought what I've been reading is pound for pound inch for inch they
 will out perform the 2 strokes in the same class

 I could be wrong --- I was wrong once....

 - Dave

	   There are presently 4 stroke outboards up to 90hp and they
	expect up to 125hp next year.  Weight to HP they're about the
	same as a 2 stroke, I -think- the 4 strokes have more torque
	though.

	   Every major manufacturer should have 4 strokes in the smaller
	sizes.  So far only Honda has large ones.  They're pretty neat
	too.  They're basically a Civic 4 cyl. with 4 carburetors.  

					B.C.

    To provide one datapoint, I just bought a new 9.9HP Sailorized OMC
    engine this spring.  It's weight was 72lbs.  The equivalent Honda 9.9
    HP in a long shaft version (not the longer sail version) was 87 lbs.
    
    At least on the low end, the power to weight ratio is not the same.
    
    /jim

 BC> read -1 SEE THEY ARE LIGHTER! They DO have more torque. Let's see???
 Lighter /more torque... that translates to more performance and I thought
 you were brighter than the average bulb...

 They are environmentally better cause of clean burning.

 One thing that won't change:
 
 You'd have to pry my 200+HP Envinrude out me just after you closed the casket.

 I enjoy the cloud of oil smoke my 200+ Envinrude expues in the morning. It
 kind of makes me feel one with the motor. Admittingly I'm not as 
 environmentally 90's as our friend John but, I do my part. So my vice is
 firing up the bigone and blowing down a lake a 70+mph. At least I don't
 toss my cans/fishing matter/batteries/rods or other polluntants overboard.
 Plus, if more people switch to the 4 strokes then my 2 stroke spue won't
 matter much.

 Doesn't make me a bad person/ just a fast one!

 _ Sully

	   I most definitely enjoy sharing an occasional trip down the
	lake with you!  But just think...  Wouldn't it be nice to have
	all that horsepower -and- more torque???  After all, your holeshot
	-could- be a little better!!!  8^)

	   					B.C.

	   Getting back to John's original question, well almost...
	I think I remember seeing a couple year old Honda 15hp for
	sale in the Fisherman this week...
						B.C.

    I found a 4-cycle 9.9 long shaft Mercury this weekend: $1,995. OUCH!
    
    I think it's the only one in the Lakes Region of NH. So far, I haven't
    screwed up the courage to tell my wife I need to spend two grand for a
    motor that I will use only twice a year before the mast is up and after
    it's down (i.e., put in and take out).
    
    I was prepared to plunk down as much as $900 on the spot, but more than
    twice that amount has given me pause.
    
    I'm hoping I can find an OMC version for less.....
    
    John H-C

    	re:price
    
    	I haven't priced any recently, but isn't a 9.9hp 2-stroke in the
    vicinity of about $1500 new ?
    
    	Ray

    Yes, it was a new one. Thing is, the 2-stroke on the back of the
    sailboat now was purchased for $300 used, and I bought a new 3hp
    2-stroke a couple years ago for $350. I just assumed that I could get
    one for considerably less than $2,000.
    
    Just my innocence in the world of combustion engines, I guess.
    
    John H-C

 There are NO bargains in the 4 cycle world.

  John, for twice a year you could use that 60mph duck-tape to attach
  a dive tanks to the side.  OPen valves and steer away!

 Other than that, FORCE aka the Force-O-matic is the best price in the 
 indusrty.

 - Sully

 There are NO bargains in the 4 cycle world.

  John, for twice a year you could use that 60mph duck-tape to attach
  a dive tanks to the side.  OPen valves and steer away!

 Other than that, FORCE aka the Force-O-matic is the best price in the 
 indusrty.

 - Sully

    Re: 568.30
    
    The OMC (2 stroke) is 72 lbs and hence lighter. The Honda (4 stroke) is
    87 lbs and hence heavier.
    
    I picked up a new Johnson (OMC) 9.9 sailorized version (that means 3
    blade prop instead of 2, super long 25" shaft, and exhaust port above
    the anti-cavitation plate) at the Feb 95 boat show for $1895.
    
    /jim
        

    Is something like a Mercury 50hp available in both 2- and 4-cycle?
    
    If so, which would you buy?  I can get the performance specs but I'm
    also looking at reliability and cost (or actually value for the
    dollar) - what are your thoughts in these areas?
    
    thanks,
    Dave

 Dave,

 As stated earlier, value and 4 strokes is presently a penguin.

 If your looking for a new 50hp cheap, can;t beat the FORCE aka
 Force-O-Matic for value and reliability. 

 2 strokes are cheaper....

 - Dave Sullivan

    Well, I stopped by with my credit card ready to put a $2,000 hole in my
    credit. After all, it turned out, a 4-cycle 9.9 long shaft isn't
    substantially more than a 2-cycle 9.9 long shaft ( <$125 difference
    between the two). The thing that prevented me from buying it was the
    size of the motor. It was simply too LARGE for me to place on the back
    of the boat while standing in the rowboat.
    
    So I ended up taking the old 9.9 in for repairs, where it sits now. In
    the end, the rebuild shouldn't cost more than $500, which is still
    $1,500 cheaper than a new outboard.
    
    John H-C